32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 Neck Lengths by Harry O

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JimT
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32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 Neck Lengths by Harry O

Post by JimT »

(This is the last of the series of articles about the "dash" calibers by Harry O. from the old Sixgunner.Com website. Harry is missed. He was one of the good guys.)

32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 Neck Lengths
by Harry O

Anyone who has done much shooting with any of the WCF "dash" calibers (like the 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40) knows that the neck lengths of factory cartridges are longer than the chambers that they are shot in and longer than what the sizing dies size them back to. What this means during shooting is that there is a space between the chamber and factory brass at the base of the neck (in the transition area). Since they headspace on their rim, this is not a big problem. When fired, the brass in the transition area expands to fit the larger (longer) chamber.

When resized using Lyman, RCBS, Redding, or Lee dies, the neck is only sized part way back to its original length (based on my experience with all of these dies in these calibers). Is that a problem? I think so.

One problem is that these old calibers don't have "SAAMI" defined sizes. Compare the Remington 32-20 case with a Winchester 32-20 case if you want to see how far different they can be. The Remington is about 1/32" longer than the Winchester. If you use the case fired in one gun in a gun with different dimensions, it sometimes fits tight, even after full length sizing them with current dies.

Another problem is that the neck section after firing and sizing is usually shorter than the bullets used in these calibers. With the very thin brass used in these old calibers, this means the neck tension is pretty weak on the bullet. I believe that this is at least part of the accuracy problem often reported with these calibers. Uniform neck tension (and enough of it) is important for accuracy. My understanding has always been that cartridges should have a neck length of at least one bullet diameter. For a 44-40, that is about 7/16". NONE of my sizing dies size the neck back that far.

It is also a problem with reloaded cartridges used in lever actions. Many of the "classic" bullet moulds don't have a crimping groove (Lyman 311008, 401043, 427098, etc.). They depended on a case full of compressed black powder to keep the bullets from slipping backwards in the case when loaded into a lever action's tube-magazine. When using smokeless powder (with the case only partially full), this is a problem. The thin short case necks don't come close to holding a bullet securely enough.

A few people have said they solved this problem by shortening their sizing dies in order to lengthen the portion of the neck that is resized. I decided to give that a try. Someone suggested the following method so that even a person without a lathe (like me) could do it without ruining the dies. Still, I used my Lee dies since they cost the least of any of them I own. I took the decapping pin out of the die. I have a 1/2" drill motor, but could not fit the collet-type nut in the top of the die into the drill chuck. A little work with a bench grinder, rounding off the corners of the nut, I was then able to mount the die securely into the drill motor. Then I held the bottom of the sizing die to the side (repeat, SIDE) of the grinding wheel while both of them were turning. I stopped and measured the overall length several times with a caliper-type micrometer. When I had shortened it by 1/8" (0.125" exactly), I stopped. The end was square with the centerline of the die (as near as I could measure) with no additional work. Just take your time and don't press on the side of the wheel too hard. I used 200, 400, and then 600 grit sanding paper to smooth the grinding marks off the bottom and then broke the inside edge of the sizing hole with a case neck reamer. This method is almost idiot proof. After all, I was able to do it.

After I was done, I cleaned the die inside and out with gun cleaning solvent. I remounted the decapping pin with a new collet nut and re-adjusted the larger nut on the outside of the die. Then I sized as many cases as I had around. No problems. The length of the neck is about the same length as they come from the factory, with 1-1/2 to 2 times the neck length (when compared to the unaltered dies) to grip the bullet.

There have been absolutely no problems with loading any case fired in any gun when sized this way. No longer are there a few snug ones to irritate me. There has been no reduction of accuracy. There does not seem to be an increase in accuracy either, but I spent a lot of years learning the tricks of reloading these calibers and have already worked out many of the accuracy problems (trimming to length, using a Lee Factory Crimp die, etc.) before shortening the dies.

What are the disadvantages of doing this? First, it works the transition area of the case a lot more than before. In the relatively few times I have reloaded these cases since I shortened the sizing dies, I have not had a failure there (at least yet). They still fail fairly frequently at the mouth of the neck first. These are not very long lived cases no matter what you do. Keep in mind that I had fired most of these cases several times before altering the sizing dies and I also don't push the envelope with Magnum type pressures - even with newly manufactured guns. Cracking could be a future problem, but I have not seen it yet.

Another disadvantage is that with 38-40 cases, I sometimes get a small crease or indentation in the transition area while sizing. This is similar to using too much case lube. It does not seem to be a major problem. I don't have that happen with 32-20 or 44-40 cases, though. They don't neck down as much and are thinner. The 38-40's I have are nickel plated Starline, hence thicker and stiffer than the others. If I had it to do over, I probably would have shortened the 38-40 only 3/32".

Still another disadvantage often noted is that doing this reduces the capacity of the case. When shooting black powder this is a small, but valid criticism. When shooting smokeless, it is not. There is NO smokeless powder that will completely fill these cases without excessive pressures and believe me, I have looked.

Anyway, there does not seem to be a real downside to doing this and there are some definite advantages. I wonder why NONE of the factory dies do this.
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OldWin
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Re: 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 Neck Lengths by Harry O

Post by OldWin »

That's a slick idea Jim. I hadn't thought of that.
As I've mentioned before here, I've just never had an issue with these cartridges. Especially the 38-40. I don't load enough 32-20 to even consider it. The 44 I tend to find more variation. Now, if I only had one of each, it would also be limited. However, I have no less than 7 38-40 chambered rifles, across brands and models. I almost exclusively use the old 401043 Lyman bullet. With all of this, I have never had an issue in any rifle, and get good or excellent accuracy from one example to another. I load with an old set of RCBS dies or an 1884 Winchester tong tool.
I only have 3 44s, in either 73 or 92 flavor. While I haven't had "trouble", it isn't as smooth sailing as 38. I have noticed in one 92 that after firing there is definite "blow out" in the neck and less accuracy than there should be IMO. My 1887 vintage 73 is every bit as good as my 38s. It will not, however, shoot the Winchester mold bullet with smokeless. Luckily, it will chamber the required size bullet to shoot with a 8gr charge of Unique.

This begs another question......
How much is the shoulder location / neck length effected by throat diameter variation in an individual chamber?
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
1894cfan
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Re: 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 Neck Lengths by Harry O

Post by 1894cfan »

Didn't read the whole article, but I find the same problem with current Winchester 30/30 cases. I've got some empty factory cases that extend long enough that I can load the RCBS 30-180-FN bullet without the gas check extending past the base of the neck. Once fired and resized, the lube groove above the gas check extends below the neck. After the first firing I usually load the RCBS 30-150-FN or 32-115-FN sized to .309 in them. :roll: BTW, the RCBS 32-115-FN does have a crimp groove and was made for the 32-20, if anyone is interested.
Last edited by 1894cfan on Sun Feb 26, 2023 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bryan Austin
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Re: 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 Neck Lengths by Harry O

Post by Bryan Austin »

I did this with some 44-40 dies. The reason I did these was to keep the base of the bullet snug with the neck. If the base is set below the neck, then there is only the front driving band and the crimp holding the bullet in, keeping it straight.....makes for some inaccurate loads.
25396259_836718776508707_4538262100722752227_nAA.jpg
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Last edited by Bryan Austin on Sat Feb 25, 2023 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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OldWin
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Re: 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 Neck Lengths by Harry O

Post by OldWin »

Pretty slick.
I would probably need to do something similar for that one 44 I have. Then mark the brass so it stays with that carbine. The other 44s are good to go with my current dies. I also have used a Winchester 44 tong tool with my 73 and the other 92 with great success. I don't think I ever tried it with the wonky 92. May be interesting to see what it does. I'm thinking it would make the tool difficult to use do to so little leverage.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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earlmck
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Re: 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 Neck Lengths by Harry O

Post by earlmck »

In 32/20 the neck is a little longer than the others and turns out to be just fine for the 100 to 115 grain bullets I load.

I hadn't worried about neck length in 44/40 as the 200 grain bullet I use barely comes below the bottom of the neck and wouldn't expose any lube groove. Being a fan of carbide dies and only having one 44/40 rifle I use the 40 S&W carbide size die as a neck sizer for the 44/40 (perfect size with the Hornady die I have). I played with it and I see I could make any length neck I wanted with this carbide die (I might mention that you have to be real careful getting the thin-necked 44/40 case started into the 40 die or you'll ruin a neck). Here are three variations with none, a scosh, and a bunch of "neck lengthening" going from right to left.
4440in40carbide.jpg


Looks like you could do the same thing with the 38/40 using the 38/55 size die as a "neck" die. No carbide for that one, though.

And contrary to Harry O's assertion, there are smokeless powders that fill the case and I know several of us are using RL7 that way and RL10 or 3031 would also work and give lower pressures yet and probably about black-powder level velocities. That is the strategy I have been using for the 38/40 to keep the bullet from sliding deeper into the case with my favorite 40 cal bullet which doesn't have a decent crimp groove.
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Bryan Austin
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Re: 32-20, 38-40, and 44-40 Neck Lengths by Harry O

Post by Bryan Austin »

1902 definition of "Necking Down"
American Rifleman's Encyclopedia

Necking Down - Contracting the mouth end of a metallic shell with the object of shortening the shell.
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