More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

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JimT
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More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by JimT »

Loading Black Powder in the 38-40
by Harry O


I started loading black powder (BP) cartridges the first time between 35 and 40 years ago. I was told by several older (and wiser?) people at the time to just fill the case to where the bullet compresses the powder about 1/8" when seated. It wasn't long before I quit using BP in disgust. There is no question that BP is safe. You cannot pack enough powder in the cartridge to blow up a gun, at least a modern one. Beyond that, there was no reason to stick with BP, and there were a LOT of reasons to abandon it.

My 45LC Hy Hunter SAA handgun clone would usually start binding in about 25 rounds of BP and I would usually give up (quit shooting) between 40 and 50 rounds. The accuracy was only so-so for the first cylinder full from a clean gun, was pretty good for the next two or three cylinders full, and would start slowly going downhill from there. It was never as accurate as a good smokeless load in the same gun. The BP fouling would cake in the barrel and corrosive smoke would condense on the gun. Removing it would slowly rub off the bluing, and it had a bad habit of showing (a week or two later) where I didn't quite clean enough the first time around (like under the ejector rod, in the center cylinder bushing, or the internal parts near the slot in the recoil shield). In other words, RUST. That corrosive smoke gets into everything. Also, the BP fouling caked in the bottom of the fired cases and was difficult to remove.

So, I got away from BP. Not entirely. I owned a few muzzleloaders through the years. They were easier to clean and I did not have to worry about caked cartridge cases. I also read a few articles on BP cartridge loading through the years, but they just convinced me all the more to stay away from it. The descriptions of all the gyrations they went through seemed more like voodoo to me than handloading.

But, a few years back, I had to get back into BP cartridge reloading again. I got involved with the 41 Long Colt and found that its undersized, hollow-base bullet (a 0.386" bullet in a 0.400" bore) needed BP to get acceptable accuracy. BP ignites faster than even Bullseye and that is exactly what was needed to get the skirt bumped up enough to grip the rifling.

I fell back on the old advice, "fill the case so the bullet compresses the BP 1/8 inch when seated" like I did before. And I got about the same results. BP is a mess. I tried Magnum primers in an effort to get more complete combustion, but there did not seem to be much difference in cleanliness. I have seen Magnum primers improve the accuracy in large cases (38-55 and 45-70 for example), but it did not seem to make much difference in little ones. I found that the BP cleaning solutions we have nowadays are a LOT better than the oil based stuff I used years ago. I also found out that BP bullet lube is a lot better than whatever was on the bullets I bought before (probably smokeless lube). Stay away from hard smokeless lubes if you are shooting BP. It is a waste of time unless you like spraying lead. BP lube does more than just lubricate the lead as it forces itself down the barrel. It melts into the BP fouling and softens it. Hard fouling hurts accuracy.

And, I found that the problems with caking in the fired cases could be easily taken care of by bringing a plastic margarine tub (with a lid) half-filled with soapy water to the range. Whenever I punch out an empty case, I just dump it into the tub of soapy water. When I return home I shake them up for a minute or so, then drain and rinse. The internal caking is gone. I let the cases dry overnight and then polish, size, decap, and neck expand them. Normal brass colored cases used with BP become darker and darker with use until the case is patchy black. It looks ugly, but doesn't seem to hurt the cases. Another thing I am doing now is to carry some "handi-wipes" and a cleaning rod in my range box. I run one through the barrel, cylinder (if it is a revolver), and wipe down the outside before I leave the range. It makes the guns a LOT easier to clean when I get home. Of course, I live 50 to 60 minutes drive from the range, so people who live closer to their range might not have to do this.

So things are a little better now. The next step was to try my 38-40's with BP (first, in a Uberti 1873 Colt SAA clone). I have two classic Lyman 400 43 single-cavity bullet moulds for it. I cast the bullets soft; 40:1 lead/tin. If you don't cast, Hornady makes a soft-lead, swaged, truncated-cone bullet that works about the same. They call it a 10mm for some reason. Unfortunately, the 400 43 bullet does not work well with smokeless powder. You have to crimp in the top lube groove rather than crimping it over the front curve of the bullet (ahead of the front lube groove) like it was designed to be used. If crimped on the curve, the bullet easily gets bumped WAY down into the case, especially if you use it in a lever action. I had heard that a case full of BP would keep this from happening. I did notice that, in working up to this, that the more I compressed the powder, the cleaner it burned. However, I couldn't compress it much more without damaging the base of the soft bullets I was using.

I built a 36" brass/walnut drop tube to try and stuff more powder into the case. I found that drop tubes do not work well with small (handgun sized) cases. There was no measurable difference in the packing height of BP dropped through the 36" tube and the same amount dropped through a short plastic funnel. I think the reason is that the first grains dropped through the tube bounced off the bottom of the case and hit the following grains (going in the opposite direction), slowing their fall. I know that drop tubes work with larger cases (like the 38-55 and 45-70), but I believe the small case fills up too fast for any packing to take place.

The next step was to mechanically compress the powder with something harder than the bullet. That worked even better. I filled up the case all the way to the top of the neck with FFFg BP. I then put it in the press and raised it into a 38-40 neck expanding die. The die length was set to compress the BP to just about where the base of the bullet would be when seated. This is approximately 3/8" to 7/16" with the 400 43 bullet. The BP compressed easily. Once this is done, the powder will not pour out even if the case is inverted. I did pick out the powder of one that had been compressed and looked at it under a 10x magnifier. There were some grains broken, but fewer than you would expect. I don't think that compressing BP this much is detrimental.

If you are only shooting a handgun, this is all you need to do. The compressed BP, soft lube, and a heavy crimp burns clean enough so that you can easily shoot 50 rounds straight without any binding and the accuracy is acceptable throughout. However, I found that there was not enough lube in the bullet grooves alone when the same cartridges were shot in a 24-1/4" rifle barrel (a Cimarron/Uberti 1873 Winchester clone). After looking at the small size of the bolt on the rifle, I decided I had better stay with BP, so I had to make it work. What about grease cookies, wads, and all the other voodoo stuff? I decided to try them.

I melted a little straight beeswax in water in one of my wife's sauce pans and then let it cool. Don't worry guys. Beeswax doesn't stink and cleans up easily. I ended up with a smooth disc of beeswax about 1/8" thick and 7" diameter. I dusted the two sides with corn starch (to keep the wads I was about to cut out of it from sticking together) and then used a fired case with the base drilled out to cut out neck-sized beeswax wads.

The next time I loaded 38-40's, I did pretty much what I did before with the BP. Then added the additional lube wad. I put a beeswax wad in the neck and tamped it down with a wooden dowel. The bullet was set with a little pressure and crimped over the curve. It worked even better than before. The load was accurate in both the rifle and handgun. And, the bullet did not move back into the case, even in a lever action. I did find a few minor problems, though.

Now I see how easy it is to get sucked into the voodoo game with BP. Using a conventional neck expander to compress the powder was not ideal. The tapered portion near the bottom of the rod meant that it was pushing BP outward in addition to downward. That sometimes bulged the thin neck a little making it hard to chamber. I rigged up a neck sizer to correct the ones loaded that way, but later bought another inside neck expanding rod and ground off the tapered portion. I have to be careful when raising the case to compress the powder now, but it is compressed straight down. No more neck sizing is needed after loading.

The beeswax wads were sometimes blowing out the barrel (with both rifle and handgun) and some were evidently sticking on the base of the bullet, causing occasional flyers. Ideally, the wad should be completely gone just as it reaches the muzzle of the longer barrel. I decided to soften the wads a little. I remelted the beeswax disc and added some Bore Butter. You could also use petroleum jelly. Just don't overdo it. Very little is needed (like maybe 1/5 to 1/4 of the weight of beeswax). Also, I cut out a bunch of wax-paper discs the size of the neck (with the same fired cartridge cutter I use for the beeswax wads). Wax-paper is easy to cut and doesn't take up any space in the case. Folding the wax-paper over several times means that you can cut a lot of discs in a short period of time, too. I put a wax-paper disc above the powder, put in a beeswax/bore-butter wad, and then put another wax-paper disc above that. Tamp all of them down with a wooden dowel and seat the bullet as before. And, yes, this makes it a lot slower to load than smokeless.

I also got away from dead soft bullets for this gun. A lot of people suggest 40:1 lead/tin mixtures for BP bullets (about 8.5 Bhn). That is what is needed with the 41 Long Colt since it MUST expand to grip the rifling. However, I came to believe that it was too soft for the 38-40. I believe that hard BP fouling in the rifling can randomly deform a soft bullet as it passes through the bore, making it inaccurate. And, hard fouling collects in the corners of rifling grooves. I believe that this makes it act like worn out rifling. I started using slightly harder bullets. Not too hard. About 11.0 to 11.5 Bhn. There are a lot of ways that you can get to that. A lead/tin mixture of between 10:1 and 15:1 will do it. Wheelweights with about 1.5% to 2% tin added will do that, too. That also makes the bullet easier to cast. In my case, I use 3.5# of pure lead to 1.0# of monotype. This gives 3.9% antimony and 2.1% tin with the remaining 94.0% lead. The bullet upsets (obturates) enough to grip the rifling, but does not get gouged by BP fouling. I would probably not use a bullet this hard in an oversized bore, but it seems to work well if the bore and bullet reasonably well matched like they are here.

The last problem was with the dies. I have conventional Lyman, Redding, and Lee dies along with a Lee Loader for the 38-40. NONE of them sizes the case neck back to where it was sized by the factory. I am not talking diameter here; I am talking length. For some reason, the neck on sized cases is quite a bit shorter than the neck on new brass and new cartridges as they come from the factory. The problem here is that cases that are sized with these dies do not have a neck as long as the part of the bullet that is seated in the case. I decided to shorten my Lee dies (because they were the least expensive ones I own) by 1/8". That makes the neck 1/8" longer and now the wax-paper discs, wad, and bullet are all completely contained in the neck.

Anyway, all these things seem to work together well. I can easily shoot 50 rounds without binding or noticeable loss of accuracy. I have shot 100 rounds on occasion without cleaning and with acceptable accuracy. I can also ring the 200 yard manhole gong at the range regularly if I do my part (with a rifle on a rest, of course, but with standard iron sights and my aging eyes). The fouling inside and out is less, too. And, the same load works well in both my 38-40 rifle and handgun. Have fun. BP shooting has gotten better.

PS: All of these things should work just as well with the 44-40. I just haven't gotten around to trying them with it yet.
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by earlmck »

I probably will never load black powder in my 38/40 but I certainly did enjoy Harry O's write-up. You can tell that Harry was a real skookum handloader and a student of the art, ready to "make it work".

No, I'm pretty fond of my 38/40 smokeless loads and the lack of clean-up requirements thereof, but -- dang, it would be at least a little entertaining to try out a black powder load in the old girl. I'd need another mould though -- both my present ones have these little dinky lube grooves that aren't conducive to packing enough of the b.p. lube. Guess I could use Harry's "lube wad" trick instead of new mould, but another mould is always a treat.

As you can see -- Harry has got me thinking.

Thanks for posting this Jim!
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by JimT »

You are welcome.
I am glad I am able to get some of the older stuff back into circulation.
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by Sixgun »

I’ve found BP to be easy in the 38-40…..same rules apply..just change the lube. I shot a 28x40 with a Colt Lightning with BP. Quick wipe every 10 rounds……..and I really don’t know if that was needed.

John Kort took these pics for me.

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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by Griff »

For years I loaded all my BP rounds with either a felt wad & and waxed card wad under the bullet. The felt wad took up some space & I was able to reduce the 45 Colt charge to about 30 grains. These worked well with the 2F Goex I was using. I then acquired a case of Goex "Cartridge". This was described to me as about a 2-½ granulation with extra graphite coating to aid a smoother combustion. I didn't need the felt wad or the waxed card. Accuracy improved. Cleaning with simple HOT water cuts thru fouling with ease. Using sufficient SPG lubricant keeps the fouling soft even in my 30" Sharps barrel. I do not find BP use to be any mystery.
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by Sixgun »

It isn’t a mystery Griff……..when in doubt of anything I follow President Trumps rule…..”follow the money”. Wad, powder measures, lube companies etc all have a reason to use their stuff or your gun will blow up……. I’ve taken apart a lot more than a few dozen original b.p. factory ammo and they are all the same……b.p.. with a bullet on top.

I use 3F whenever I do use that nasty stuff. I think the lube matters the most…..
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by JimT »

Sixgun wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:59 pm I’ve taken apart a lot more than a few dozen original b.p. factory ammo and they are all the same……b.p.. with a bullet on top.
Me too. I've pulled apart old ammo including od .44-40's and old .45 Colt's and never found anything under the bullet but black powder. I am sure some of the tricks do help when going for as much accuracy as you can get. Whatever helps your self-confidence is good. And if it works for you, use it!
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by WCG »

My favorite lube recipe for the 38 wcf.
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by Griff »

Sixgun wrote: Wed Feb 08, 2023 11:59 pm...I think the lube matters the most…..
Yep, it is.
JimT wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 12:15 amMe too. I've pulled apart old ammo including od .44-40's and old .45 Colt's and never found anything under the bullet but black powder. I am sure some of the tricks do help when going for as much accuracy as you can get. Whatever helps your self-confidence is good. And if it works for you, use it!
Exactly, I don't criticize others for the lengths they go to when loading BP, sometimes bordering on the ridiculous, and even see the same in my own loading for the best in accuracy. For general use in cowboy action, where I'm only trying to hit a generously sized steel plate 10-25' away, it's simply: powder, lubed bullet, crimp.
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by Pat C »

No experience with blackpowder cartridge loading, but interested in authentic 32 WCF loads I can make with original WRA handloader .I have some smokeless rounds I plan to pull bullets and charge ,then reload to shoot in antique 1873 rifle.
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by Sixgun »

Pat C wrote: Thu Feb 09, 2023 2:40 pm No experience with blackpowder cartridge loading, but interested in authentic 32 WCF loads I can make with original WRA handloader .I have some smokeless rounds I plan to pull bullets and charge ,then reload to shoot in antique 1873 rifle.
Pat……hopefully, your ‘73 has a good crown……very few do……unless it has you’re going to need jacketed or gas checked bullets…….those old timers back in the day would ram that steel cleaning rods up and down a million times to get out that mercuric priming and BP residue….was not no books in those days to tell them how to do it properly……up and down up and down, all the time wearing the edges of the rifling.

I cast these from original moulds that were made before the advent of smokeless….notice the wide grooves for the grease…—-006

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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by Pat C »

I had planned on getting a WRA mold , the 1873 is the one that was given to me in bad condition ,hacksawed barrel .
Which I carefully reworked to 20" short rifle.
Any info you guys can share would be helpful,I'm green on loading BP cartridges.

Really hope to use this NOS WRA handloader
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Re: More from HarryO ... Loading Black Powder in the 38-40

Post by Griff »

Lots of lube required, especially in the longer "rifle" barrels for BP rounds. I was told way back when I started to watch for a lube "star" on the muzzle where it was flung from the grooves of the bullet as it exited. When I used the bullets I was using in my handguns in the new rifle, I quickly found that my bullets didn't carry enough lube. Hard fouling the last several inches of the bore, tough cleaning and dismal accuracy. Bullets key-holing in less than 25 yards, & lots of misses. Those definitely look like good BP bullets Sixgun! I certainly listened to Mike Venturino when he talked about BP cartridge loading. I got to shoot with him several times during the late '80s & early '90s.
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