How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

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JimT
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How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by JimT »

I am posting HarryO's articles written over 20 years ago for Sixgunner.Com. This series covers the .32 WCF .. .38 WCF ... .41 Long Colt .. .44 WCF. This is the second article.

..................................................

The last of the slopeshouldered trio - The 38-40 (38WCF)

How I got started with the 38-40
by HarryO

I never really intended to buy a 38-40. The 38-40 (38WCF) was born in the late 1870's a few years after the 44-40 and a few years before the 32-20. It was chambered, along with the others, in the Winchester 1873 lever action rifle. The Colt SAA followed shortly afterward. The 38-40 does not have near the following of the 44-40. It is similar to the relationship between the 41 Magnum and the 44 Magnum. The two are not a whole lot different, but the larger one is a lot more popular.

The 38-40 is simply a 44-40 necked down 0.026"/0.027". No one knows for sure why it was created, but there are a lot of other nearly identical cartridges being produced. There is some disagreement about the original load for the 38-40. Some people think it was originally loaded with 38gr of BP making it a 40-38. Others think it was loaded with 40gr of BP making it a 40-40 (both of these being in the old balloon head cases). Regardless, everyone agrees that it actually uses a 40 caliber bullet rather than 38 caliber. Again, nobody seems to know for sure why it was called a .38.

One of the claims to fame for the 38-40 is that the Colt SAA's that John Wayne owned and carried through many of his cowboy movies were in 38-40 caliber. Another claim is that America is rediscovering the 38-40 -- in the form of the 40S&W cartridge. The 40S&W launches the same diameter and weight bullet at the same speed as the 38-40 did over 100 years ago (at least in its original loading). Good things don't change. In fact, some 40S&W/10mm bullets can be loaded into the 38-40 case. The trick is finding ones with a cannelure. That is pretty rare, but I have run across a few.

Like I said, I was not planning to buy a 38-40. After all, what could it do that the 32-20 and 44-40 (which I do shoot) couldn't do just as well, if not better. Another reason that I did not get a 38-40 sooner is that they are collectors items -- real collectors items. There are probably only about 1/10 the number of original 38-40's that there are in 44-40. I could afford the bad looking ones, but did not want to own them. The really nice ones cost more than I was willing to pay. Although I knew that the clone manufacturers had been producing small quantities of 38-40 handguns for the last few years, I had not seen any. My guess is that in clones, there are only 1/100 the number of 38-40's when compared with 44-40's. A while back, I came across a Uberti Bisley-clone in 38-40 on a gunshow table. It was NIB and very reasonably priced. I can withstand anything except temptation and a good deal. I bought it.

I was a little wary of the Uberti after my bad experience with a Ruger Vaquero in 44-40. However, it turned out that the Uberti was no problem at all. The bore, throats, and chambers are all correctly sized and factory ammunition drops in and out by gravity alone. More importantly, it is accurate. I was a little wary of the grip, too. I had never shot a Colt-type Bisley before. Compared to the SAA grip, the Bisley looks downright ugly. After shooting it, though, I found that for one or two handed, arms-length, single-action slow-fire, it is actually better than the SAA grip. All in all, it was not a bad way to get introduced to the 38-40. Maybe I was just lucky for a change.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Reloading the 38-40

After I shot my first box of Winchester factory ammo (BTW, that stuff is expensive -- even more expensive than 44-40 ammo), I realized that I had a potential problem. How was I going to keep my 44-40 cases and 38-40 cases separated without reading each and every headstamp? With my eyes nowadays, that is not easy to do. I already had 600 brass 44-40 cases on hand so I started looking for nickel plated 38-40 brass. That was about as hard as finding the gun. I found that Starline produced a short run of nickel plated 38-40 brass a while back, but does not regularly stock it. I sent out a lot of e-mails and finally found a guy who still had some on his shelf. I bought 500 of them. I can now tell at a glance if the empties are 38-40's or 44-40's. These cases have thicker walls than my 44-40 cases, and a LOT thicker walls than my 32-20 cases. I would say that loading this 38-40 with these cases is just about as easy as loading a modern, straight-case cartridge. However, the techniques I use for the harder-to-load 32-20 work great here, too < guests/32wcf.htm >.

Handloading for the 38-40 IS a breeze. I think that this is because the nickel plated cases are thicker and stronger than Winchester brass and there is only ONE bullet size to use instead of the huge range of sizes used for the 44-40. There are many recommendations for the type of powder and amounts to use in magazines and reloading books. I will not try to repeat them all here. You can start with Doc Smith's 38-40 page http://www.reloadammo.com/3840.htm . I also highly recommend the "Pet Loads" book by Ken Waters, a reprint of his magazine articles for Handloader magazine. It is not cheap, but it is worth every penny.

I started out with Lee 38-40 dies. There were no problems with sizing the case, neck expanding, or crimping. The reloads made with them worked great. A short while after I started loading for this caliber I just happened to be driving through Valentine Nebraska (check the map) and "Lock, Stock, and Barrel" just happened to be open. The owner invited me to look around the warehouse and I found that he had Redding dies in all my Cowboy calibers right there on the shelf. I really like Redding dies even though they are more expensive than most other dies, but they are usually on back order when I try to buy them (at least in the calibers I shoot). They just feel right. I bought one in each caliber and started loading with the Redding dies. I would like to say that this made a tremendous difference, but it didn't. Both sets of dies turned out equally good reloads. And regardless of the dies I use to load the cartridge, I use a Lee 38-40 Factory Crimp die to finish it off. I still like Redding dies, though.

I bought some swaged (dead-soft) Hornady 180gr 0.400"OD truncated cone bullets. For some reason they are not labeled as 38-40 bullets. They have the trendy "10mm" label on them instead. However, other than the size, the bullets are identical to the ones I use for my 44-40. The bullets do not have conventional lube grooves. They have a knurled appearance and are dusted with a light coating of a dry white lube. Luckily, the bore of the Uberti was smooth enough so that I did not have to add additional Alox lube like I had to for the 44-40 Ruger. Remember to crimp. The Lee Factory Crimp die works great for this. I loaded them up with 7.5gr of Unique and got close to 900fps out of the gun. Since this is my newest caliber, I have not experimented much from there. Unique works extremely well in both the 38-40 and 44-40 handguns.

I used black powder in a .45LC Hy-Hunter SAA clone over 30 years ago. Because of that, I have pretty much stayed away from BP since then. However, I recently started using BP in a .41 Long Colt revolver < guests/41longcolt.htm >. Things have changed for the better. It is still just as dirty as ever, but it is easier to clean, more consistent, and even smells better. I will undoubtedly try BP in my 44-40's and 38-40 soon.

I realize that this lack of problems may not be the same with everyone. I have talked with, and read about, a few people who have had bad tolerances in original 38-40's. At least some have barrels larger than the cylinder throats. I found out from my 44-40 Ruger that this combination is death for accuracy. If you have a problem like that, how the Ruger was fixed may interest you < guests/4440.htm >. I sometimes wonder if the people with this problem in 38-40 actually have 41 Long Colt barrel on their gun. It seems that the Colt factory sometimes may have made both the 41LC and the 38-40 with whatever barrel they had on hand at times (maybe poor workmanship is not a new thing). They were not the same bore, though. The 41LC had bigger groove size at about 0.406"/0.408"OD. The 38-40 was 0.400"/0.401"OD. A 38-40 barrel on a 41LC will work just fine, but a 41LC barrel on a 38-40 will give poor accuracy. It does seem that the new Uberti's are made with the correct dimensions, though. I cannot vouch for other manufacturers, but i have heard that the new 38-40 Ruger has questionable dimensions.

I am currently looking for a 38-40 rifle. I hope that Marlin will get around to making a short run of them like they did the 44-40.

One caution: I would imagine that I will have to find bullets that have a crimping groove in order to use them in a rifle. I have to with the 44-40 and Lyman/Ideal 427098 bullets or the bullets will press down into the cases. Not good. The classic Lyman/Ideal 401043 (for the 38-40) is a scaled down version of the 427098 (for the 44-40) with a couple of lube grooves, but no crimping groove. The original Lyman bullet depended on a compressed load of black powder to keep the bullet from pushing down into the case. No smokeless powder fills the 38-40 case enough to do this. I notice that the new Hornady Cowboy Action bullet molds have only have one lube groove (although it is wider than the earlier bullet), but there is a narrow crimping groove. That should work better in lever actions. For the time being, though, the bullets are no problem in a handgun.

I realize that this is not much of a gun or a caliber test. There were no problems for me to overcome or little known tricks to pass on. It just came too easy. With the ease of loading, accuracy, and lack of problems with this gun, the 38-40 might just become one of my new favorites.

Unfortunately, I sacrificed this particular gun. After shooting a few bulk boxes of Hornady 10mm bullets, I sent it to a gunsmith (without the cylinder) to have a .357 Magnum cylinder fitted and then bored out for the 41 Long Colt cartridge. I am also looking for another handgun in 38-40 now. I hope I am as lucky with the next one.
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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by OldWin »

The 38-40 is by far my favorite of the old west "stubbies". For whatever reason, it is not rare in my area, and is WAY more common than either 44 or 32. Them old hicks was smart. :D
While I have no handguns chambered as such, I have 7 rifles and carbines of various make and model. Unlike my 44s, I can shoot the same load in them all with excellent accuracy. I usually use the old BP Lyman 401043 cast somewhere around #2 alloy, shoved down over between 8 and 9gr of Unique. This makes a good general purpose field load and can be shot by the 100s in any of my rifles.
Strangely enough, while I've shot deer with my 44s, I never have with the 38 for whatever reason.
One of my 38s is missing from the picture. It's a 92 SRC that is over to my dad's place.
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by piller »

Kind of cool how the .40 S&W was made to bring the power level down to where even shooters who had an issue with recoil could handle it. That tells me that the old .38-40 had already hit that sweet spot. Both calibers are plenty for deer out to about 50 yards. Just be sure to be accurate. Of course, that holds for any hunting.
I would like to get a Blackhawk with both the .38-40 and the .40 S&S cylinders. I am sure it would be fun.
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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by WCG »

I love casting & loading the .38 wcf with BP using original winchester hand casting & loading tool's.
The round on the far right is one of mine using the old tools.
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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by WCG »

W30wcf sent me the 3 old rounds to the left, with lots of good info. about the .38 wcf and the model 73.
Awesome & very knowledgeable man 👍🙂
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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by Sixgun »

Good ole Jim T should be renamed “Mr. Organized”…..I forgot all about these old writings……that article has to be 25 years old……good stuff from “back in the day”…thanks Jim….

Yea….love that cartridge too….been loading it for close to a half century. And like Old Win., my compadre from Maine says, only one load is
needed for accuracy out of all of them…….the only deviation from dozens of 38-40’s I’ve owned over the years was an 1889 Marlin and a Colt
Bisley…….all of the other had and have .400 or .401 groove diameters..

6 grains of Bullseye or 7.5 of Unique with a 180 Lyman TC designed for the 40 S&W is all I use….and I’ve used tens of thousands of them, all from a 4 cavity mould….

One first gen with a 7.5 barrel is beer can accurate at 100 meters and a few third gens and a Ruger I have are the same.

My favorite is a special order ‘92 carbine made in 1906 that has a half mag and is factory engraved, a rarity in any carbine….

The rifle that Old Win is showing is a rarity too…..he’s just too modest to brag…..the one to the left that’s a half mag rifle takedown. (can I have it Jay?)

If celebrities and other rich people can brag why can’t a common working man? It seems that when a little person talks about owning nice stuff, he is shunned and ostracized……never could figure that one out….———006

Image

1873 38-40 made in 1891…..98%

Image
Model A Uzi’s
Image
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OldWin
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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by OldWin »

Ha! I'll tell you what buddy.......
A one time deal....today onl.....well, anytime.
I'll swap that primo half mag 92 takedown for that beat up old 73 rifle in the picture.
Oh heck! I'm feeling generous, so I'll swap for the engraved carbine if you'd rather. :D

See what a pal I am? :D
"Oh bother", said Pooh, as he chambered another round.
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JimT
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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by JimT »

I never took it as bragging when you shared some of your stuff. I enjoy seeing what other folks have and love to do. Sometimes I even share a picture or two of my old beat up stuff. :D
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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by JBowen »

Great article and very nice rifles.
Thanks for sharing.

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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by Sarge »

My 40 S&W (38-40 Rimless Short :D ) bulk bullet is actually a 38-40 bullet, from Bear Creek Supply.

https://www.bearcreeksupplybullets.com/38-40wcf

These are 180 grain RNFPs with a nice broad flat point. Shown with a round of Speer 180 grain Lawman, for comparison.

Image

First load tried was 5.0 grains of Winchester 231, CCI standard primer, 967 fps average. 5 MOA on steel at 100 from a Springfield XDm 4.5- Bada bing!
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Re: How I got started with the 38-40 by HarryO

Post by Griff »

JimT wrote: Sat Feb 04, 2023 7:39 pm I never took it as bragging when you shared some of your stuff. I enjoy seeing what other folks have and love to do. Sometimes I even share a picture or two of my old beat up stuff. :D
Me either. If I had anything fancy, I'd brag on it also!
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