New LEVERGUN cartridge?

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GunnyMack
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New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by GunnyMack »

Just got latest Guns & Ammo and I see Col Craig Boddington has a write up on the new Remington 360 Buck Hammer.
Based on the 30-30, shortened to be legal in straight wall states. 200grs at 2190fps and in a prototype Henry.
Case is longer the the " legend" .
They might be on to sumthin here!
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Twodot »

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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Nath »

Yeah but what's wrong with the leg end of maximum cases?
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by GunnyMack »

Do you mean cartridge OAL Nath? Some silly ninnyhamer set a max OAL claiming bullets won't go as far...
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by wvfarrier »

I am interested 😁 but isnt this just a 357 Herret?
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by GunnyMack »

Its 1.800" case, don't know what the 357 Herret is...?
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by 4t5 »

I guess the BUCKHAMMER name is more appealing to hunters as is the rimmed cartridge, than the LEGEND. I think if someone just shortened the 375 WIN a couple of thousandths, and came up with a cool name like BISON BOMBER, one could make a small fortune in this silly world.
Last edited by 4t5 on Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Alan Wood »

4t5 wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:22 pm I guess the BUCKHAMMER name is more appealing to hunters as is the rimmed cartridge, then the LEGEND. I think if someone just shortened the 375 WIN a couple of thousandths, and came up with a cool name like BISON BOMBER, one could make a small fortune in this silly world.
These days would more likely be illegal in 50 states in a couple of weeks!
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by 1894cfan »

Why not just legit the 35-30/30? :? :roll:
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

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by GunnyMack » Fri Dec 30, 2022 2:13 pm

Its 1.800" case, don't know what the 357 Herret is...?



The .357 Herrett was developed by handgun stockmaker Steve Herret in the early 1970s for use in Thompson Center Contenders. The idea was to perfect a cartridge suitable for taking deer and antelope-sized game in a reasonably short (10" barrel) "handgun" that could be carried in a holster or on a sling.

The .30 Herrett was developed at about the same time and it lasted longer in the loading manuals than the .357 version. The introduction of longer barrels in the Contenders marked the end of both cartridges.

The .357 Herrett is not quite a straight-walled cartridge.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Ray »

A February 2023 guns & ammo glossy came in the mail today with the article cited in the o.p. Not as odd/goofy as it sounds when you consider the game rules that folk have to deal with in corn country with its flat and sloping topography.

A few years ago I was watching a hunting video shot from a ground blind and you could see farm infrastructures and homes and road traffic in the background. When the hunter shot (scoped modern muzzleloader) the buck along a barbed wire fence line, you could actually see a yellow school bus stopping for a pickup in the distance beyond. Was the shot safe and ethical ? Only the hunter knows but certainly scenes like this and the supposed hunter's lack of self control in days gone by contributed to the decades of shotgun slug only.

As for the g & a magazine mentioned, there is a $2,000 9x19mm plastic leveraction with a 35 round detachable magazine featured.

And an excellent gary james article on matchlock muskets which makes up for the other content.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by 4t5 »

Is there an approved list of cartridges, or can someone shorten an existing one and use that.
Maybe then seat the bullet a few thousand further out , and in effect get the same round .
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by GunnyMack »

I'm familiar with the Herret line though never have shot them.

This article sated 38-55/ 375 were legal due to case length. One of the state requirements was a factor of the 1.800" case.
Its got more oomph than the 35 Rem but less than the 358 Win, uses properly sized bullets ( unlike the 'legend') .

Are they reinventing the wheel? Maybe but its a dedicated LEVERGUN round and I figured this place would find interest in it.

Well 30 minutes of legal shooting light and no deer have shown up yet.. yup im in my blind :D
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by OldWin »

Too bad....
They should have called it .360 Creedmoor. Then it could have done anything better than anything else.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Ray Newman »

"They should have called it .360 Creedmoor. Then it could have done anything better than anything else."
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by .45colt »

It's just another comedy central caliber....350 legend,450 bushmaster....bla, bla, bla. every "modern" hunter wants a caliber that has little recoil , flat shooting and cheap to feed. If the Buck hammer comes out ,which it prolly will , around here the 350 legend & 450 bushmaster will be for sale used everywhere. If the large brains in the dept of natural resources would use "them" they would just say " the .35 Remington is a legal caliber. then super atomic ammo would soon be available to every hunter. The last whitetail I killed in Ohio was with a Marlin 45-70 . but then I was only 60 and able to stand up under the tremendous recoil of that 300gr slug..... :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Reminds me a little of the old Winchester .351 Self Loading, but that's a much larger case -- 1.91 inches! :lol:
I had a Model 1907 in this caliber -- just because, dang it! -- and ran one box of ammo through it that I got from Buffalo Arms. Cartridges were made from .357 Maximums turned down at the rim. Worked OK. I think our friend Earl of these parts took a shot or two with this thing one day on Butch's secret range hidden inside an exclusive golf course near Prineville. 8)
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Nath »

GunnyMack wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:43 pm Do you mean cartridge OAL Nath? Some silly ninnyhamer set a max OAL claiming bullets won't go as far...
Stupid spell check thingy....I was just wondering what is this buck hammer going to do better than the existing. Sounds like the usual money making machine is running fine.....🤷
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by AJMD429 »

.
There are sure a lot of other cartridges that already fill that ballistic niche. Even if you limit them to ones that would fit a lever action rifle with similar case length and action length to the 30-30, they're still already a lot on the market that would work, including quite a few time tested ones as mentioned above.
IMG_20221230_193236963~2.jpg
On AmmoGuide.com there is a feature where you can enter an overall length range and a bullet diameter range and a case head diameter range and it will generate a list of any existing or common wildcat cartridge fulfilling those criteria. If I hadn't forgotten my password I'd run a search and post a screenshot.... :D
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Ysabel Kid »

You do have to hand it to them for the name. Someone in marketing is on their game! :lol:
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Nath »

In Australia I'd market it as the WallabyWhupper.

In the UK it could be called the FallowFlopper.

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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by RIDERED350r »

I'll bet that when Ruger decides to release their new Marlin 336 this cartridge will be an option.

I've been discussing this cartridge in a lever rifle enthusiast group on MeWe over the last couple days. From what we have been able to find there are four states that have a case length limit of 1.800". That length limit takes a lot of good old cartridges off the table, like 45-70, 38-55, 375 Win and others. I get that they are trying to offer something that fits in that category, but it seems to me like it will be a tough sell everywhere but in those few states. Will it stick around?? I can understand why 350L seems to be making it due to the ability to run in an AR platform although I still have zero interest in one. This Buckhammer thing seems to me likely to be short lived and fade into obscurity. Being a rimmed case and really targeted toward lever rifles, I have to wonder how well it will sell.

On one hand, it's good that the industry is looking to provide an alternative to pistol chambered carbines. But on the other hand, I haven't seen a box of 30-30 on a store shelf in these parts in 2+ years. How about we get back on track with general supply of things there should never be a shortage of before coming out with the next Wizz-bang?
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Bill in Oregon »

RIDERED, the Remington of old had a reputation for announcing new cartridges then dropping them after just a few years. I hope the newly arisen Remington ammo company takes a different tack and supports its cartridge for "a decent interval," whatever that might be.
I must confess I can see this cartridge chambered in a single shot loaded with BP and a paper-patched bullet and put to use in those 20-rod and 40-rod matches that are so popular today ... :lol:
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Well now I am really sick. After consulting Cartridges of the World, I see that this thing will come in almost exactly halfway between the .35-30 Maynard and the .35-40 Maynard. Could we rename it the .35-35 Remington Maynard? 8)
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Mainehunter »

1894cfan wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 3:45 pm Why not just legit the 35-30/30? :? :roll:
+1

I'll be interested in more info when it comes out. Like the 350 Legend, just another "shiny" to chase after. :|

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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by 44shooter »

I will read it when my copy comes, but who makes rifles for it?

I’m all for new developments but this seems very niche. So am I understanding that some states forbid hunting with 38-55, 444, 45-70 because they exceed allowed case length? So is the intent to limit cartridge firearms to revolver type (a 44mag lever gun for example) and a few AR straight cartridges (350 Legend etc). All in all, I’m for those populations having choices but I doubt it’s for me.

Remington doesn’t have a very good record of cartridge introductions in the last few decades. They have released some good ones no doubt but seem to drop the ball on marketing and support quickly. Also a LOT of their winners over time are simply old wildcats. The 222 and 35 are original. The last truly successful cartridge Remington released is the 7mm-08 in 1980. Another wildcat adoption.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by samsi »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:06 am Well now I am really sick. After consulting Cartridges of the World, I see that this thing will come in almost exactly halfway between the .35-30 Maynard and the .35-40 Maynard. Could we rename it the .35-35 Remington Maynard? 8)
Vall -- somebody -- help me out here. I need black coffee, lots of it! :lol:
Too funny, I was looking at the same thing the other night.

It's too long for a 92 or Marlin 94 and short for a 30-30 length action...I think it might be something neat in a Contender or Encore.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by OldWin »

Just another reason why you can't find the ammo you want for an actual proven cartridge. And when you do, it's 40 bucks a box.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by FLINT »

IF I lived in one of those midwestern states, I'd be all over it. From what I can tell, it was designed to give maximum performance while meeting the very specific requirements of certain states. It outperforms the 350 legend AND will be offered in a levergun which both seem like pros to me. So, I'm not sure why it deserves so much hate.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Griff »

I never understood why the .357Maximum wasn't offered in a levergun. Too long for the '92, but if they could adapt the mdl 94 to the .357 Magnum, the Maximum could have worked... NO? Its case length was reported a 1.605", so under the 1.8
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by BenT »

I look forward to reading Craig Boddington's article on it. He is a lever gun guy and I am sure he excited about this. The 35 Remington is great at killing deer and so should this.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Rockrat »

I believe the max pressure for the 357 max. was beyond what most leverguns would take. A stretched '92 would have worked well I think.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by 44shooter »

I don’t hate the idea of it. I get who it is marketed to. I don’t live in those places nor do I understand their regulations. If a shot is unsafe at 2800 fps it is unsafe at 2200. I don’t have a need or desire for it. Now if I come across a deal later….

I don’t see it lasting although I know it’s ballistics will work because they are similar to other proven cartridges. Lever action buyers are a decreasingly limited market. Not counting rimfire most buy 30-30s, others buy 357, 44, 45 etc. 45-70 has a good following. New cartridges for lever actions do not make it. And you can extend that back about 45 years: 7-30, 307, 356, 375 Winchesters; 308, 338 Marlins. Good cartridges that offered something a bit extra in range or power to the usual cartridges. Brass for most of these is scarce even before shortages. Maybe you could make cases for this 360 from the 38-55 family

The 350 may hang on since it will run in AR-15s and 223 size micro bolt actions and has a big head start. Remington always show up to the party when the hosts are cleaning up.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by AJMD429 »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 10:06 am Well now I am really sick. After consulting Cartridges of the World, I see that this thing will come in almost exactly halfway between the .35-30 Maynard and the .35-40 Maynard. Could we rename it the .35-35 Remington Maynard? 8)
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by RIDERED350r »

44shooter wrote: Sat Dec 31, 2022 9:27 pm I don’t hate the idea of it. I get who it is marketed to. I don’t live in those places nor do I understand their regulations. If a shot is unsafe at 2800 fps it is unsafe at 2200. I don’t have a need or desire for it. Now if I come across a deal later….

I don’t see it lasting although I know it’s ballistics will work because they are similar to other proven cartridges. Lever action buyers are a decreasingly limited market. Not counting rimfire most buy 30-30s, others buy 357, 44, 45 etc. 45-70 has a good following. New cartridges for lever actions do not make it. And you can extend that back about 45 years: 7-30, 307, 356, 375 Winchesters; 308, 338 Marlins. Good cartridges that offered something a bit extra in range or power to the usual cartridges. Brass for most of these is scarce even before shortages. Maybe you could make cases for this 360 from the 38-55 family

The 350 may hang on since it will run in AR-15s and 223 size micro bolt actions and has a big head start. Remington always show up to the party when the hosts are cleaning up.
Great post, well articulated. Very much agree on your first statement about unsafe shots. But we are talking about politicians and bureaucrats who come up with this nonsense. So there's that.

But to your point about lever action buyers being a diminishing market, I don't know about that. Seems to me that over the last 5-10 years the market on them has really come to life and rebounded. Look at the success Henry has had. The new Ruger Marlins are still flying off shelves, many being bought for well over MSRP. New Winchesters are never in abundance and their yearly runs seem to sell quickly, albeit they don't seem to be making them in the numbers that Henry does every year. I think right now, lever rifles are more popular and in demand than they have been for 50 years or so.

I'll never let go of my 375 Win 😁
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by elmo123 »

Forty years ago I was in K's Sporting Goods in St Louis talking with the owner, Jack Klug, and I asked him if he was going to pass the store down to his two sons when he retired. He responded no and offered his explanation for his decision. He told me that firearms generally don't wear out if properly cared for and are passed down from generation to generation. He also told me that the GCA of 1968 was going to be the death of the firearms industry someday with all of the restrictive laws enacted in years to come.

Like some of you I periodically receive surveys from Vista about my purchasing habits current and future to which I always respond that I will not put another penny in their pockets until they restore shipping ammo to the local dealers and lower their prices. All of the new calibers they have introduced, 30 Super Carry and now this one are a farce and designed to simply empty your pocket. Try getting this ammo in years to come it will end up like the 5mm magnum.

I wonder if there have been attempts to rescind some of these caliber restriction in the States that have them and if lobbyists for Vista would work to prevent any changes, its' all about the money.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Rockrat »

Perhaps they should have named it the the 360 BuckStomper or 360 B.S. for short :D
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

It's interesting, though I live in Texas and would have no use for such a thing. If it inspires some people to have a gun they may not otherwise purchase, I see no harm in this.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Griff »

Rockrat wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 10:00 amPerhaps they should have named it the the 360 BuckStomper or 360 B.S. for short :D
I can see that might be the very reason they didn't! :P
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by 2ndovc »

If we can start getting .358 bullets made again, I'm all for it. Like some others have stated above, I don't understand all the criticism. If something new fits a need or even just a want, why get all wound up about it?

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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by RIDERED350r »

2ndovc wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 4:33 pm If we can start getting .358 bullets made again, I'm all for it. Like some others have stated above, I don't understand all the criticism. If something new fits a need or even just a want, why get all wound up about it?

jb 8)
I'd guess lingering frustration due to persisting shortages of the old stand-bys on shelves. Pretty sad when in many areas even 30-30 is still a rare find
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by GunnyMack »

I can't believe the negative comments.
The way I see it this cartridge is a boon for us. Sure it's another new round but those that NEED to use a straight wall under crazy restrictions can possibly get the best of both worlds in this.
Remington is back from thr brink of death, they are realizing that new stuff is good and are willing to take a chance on this new round that isn't a magnum or flavor of the month 6.5. Even Federal is looking into making ammo.
Henry made the prototype and as we all know Henry isn't afraid to take a chance or two. I'd bet Ruger will fit a Marlin to it as well.
Will this cartridge do more & better than a 35 Remington or 358 Win?, probably not but it will give hunters a chance to use a rifle in those states that allow this type of chamberings.
I've got no dog in this fight as I'm in a shotgun/ muzzle loader state but I'm open to this for those who can. However if I was to hunt in a straight wall state I'd take my 41 mag or my 450 bushmaster. Hunting other places I've got other center fires that would work as well.
Let's face it the powers that be decided to take a chance and produce a very small quantity for a very small market just for LEVERGUN guys.
Each and every cartridge old and new is due to the fact that us gun people tinker, change, and monkey around with stuff, sometimes it works better, sometimes not. Where would we be if H&H hadn't made the 375 back in 1912? How many belted mags do we have now because someone took a chance...
Look at Marlinman, he is working those grand old rolling blocks, obscure chamberings but he is figuring stuff out. That's how we are wired.
Will this be a hit on the market, who knows but it's fun to see and read about new products that work and aren't wonder 9s or another AR.
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by 2ndovc »

Shortages like the most recent one, happen frequently enough that if one is not sufficiently prepared then that's on them. The firearm industry is like any other. If they don't keep the public interested in buying the new and shining things, they won't be around long.

jb 8)
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by RIDERED350r »

2ndovc wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 5:57 pm Shortages like the most recent one, happen frequently enough that if one is not sufficiently prepared then that's on them. The firearm industry is like any other. If they don't keep the public interested in buying the new and shining things, they won't be around long.

jb 8)
I get that. That's why I stay pretty well stocked in reloading components. 🍻
Bill in Oregon
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Gunny, I am with you 100 percent. And I am not kidding about calling this the .35-35 Remington Maynard.
Some folks seem to be confusing "our earliest wildcat, the .35-30/30" with this new straight-walled cartridge that I'd love to see in the flesh.
Here, from left, a .30/30 case; a loaded .35/30 case (Ackley); a .35 Remington and an empty. See any straight-walled cases here? I don't.

Image
Rockrat
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Rockrat »

Not really negative here, about the new cartridge. If I lived in a straight wall state, I would be leaning towards the 360 over the 350, but I have a 357max rifle, so I am good. Too bad NEF wasn't still in business, I could use a barrel for the 360, just for the heck of it. Would stock up on brass once it comes out, just like I have enough 356 win and 338 ME stuff, along with 357max, to last me.

I look forward to new bullets for the 360 as they probably will work well in my 357max.
TraderVic
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by TraderVic »

Some guys have purchased a Henry single shot 357 mag a d had them reamed out for 357 maximum. They speak highly of them.
On the other hand, maybe the new Remington Ammunition Company (Parent Co : Federal, etc) will support new cartridges better than the previous Remington (??)
Bill in Oregon
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by Bill in Oregon »

TraderVic, I looked at the Henry single shot as a possible chassis for a .35-35 Remington Maynard, but the barrel at 22 inches is too short for my purposes, and the darned action lever is right where the tang aperture sight needs to be mounted.
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marlinman93
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Re: New LEVERGUN cartridge?

Post by marlinman93 »

This new Buckhammer is the answer to a problem that's almost non existent these days. With so many of the states that used to limit OAL case length, and straight wall cartridges now changing their rules, there's almost no states left that still limit OAL of cases. A number still have the straight wall rule, but there are numerous existing straight wall cases that will perform as well, or better than this one.
My money says that almost no major firearms maker will jump on the bandwagon and chamber a new gun in this cartridge. And I doubt most ammo makers will add this cartridge to their lineup either. I see this new cartridge going the route of obsolescence in a very short time.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
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