Cartridge found at crime scene

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31932
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by AJMD429 »

.
In Indiana, evidently an intact cartridge "unspent bullet, with extraction marks on it" was found in between two bodies of young girls murdered a year or so ago. The 'Delphi Murders' is how the media refers to it.

Of course the 'news' media says it was a "bullet" but so far the cops aren't saying the girls were shot, and nobody heard any shots, so it makes sense it was probably a cartridge. They are saying that marks on it tie it to the gun the accused guy has.

My question is if that passes the smell test. I'd think that the extractor marks would not be that unique to any given gun, and the inevitable chamber-entry marks would probably be mostly just nonspecific linear scratches, unless the gun had a burr on it or something.

Hopefully they catch the [no printable word I can think of to use here] who killed the two little kids, and if the guy they have in custody is the one, I'm fine if 'flimsy' evidence is what tips the scale, but I know there was a big controversy that the police didn't say much about evidence until the media pressed them and started leaking stuff, and just wondered if they were hoping to get more solid evidence and not just rely on "extraction marks".

I guess time will tell...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
elmo123
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 281
Joined: Mon Mar 28, 2011 4:45 pm

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by elmo123 »

If it was a Glock or any other semi there would be an ejector and possibly an extractor mark but since these parts are mass produced I would highly doubt the marks would be unique especially with MIM parts.

I worked a homicide where a Colt Agent was used with RP 158 rn cartridges and before I sent it to the lab for comparison to the spent bullet recovered. I was advised by the Tech not to attempt to clean the bore because it might not match the recovered bullet even if it was the murder weapon. It was the murder weapon.

One thing to consider is if the ammo recovered was reloaded after being fired in another pistol ?

Tool marks can be unique but some of this is a stretch and subjective to the examiner's opinion.
stretch
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2284
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by stretch »

One thing to consider is if the ammo recovered was reloaded after being fired in another pistol ?
Range pickups might have several marks on them. Of course, after tumbling, cleaning, and the die work, those
marks may or may not be faded or eliminated. Yet they're still there. The new marks form the last gun the cartridge
was fired in SHOULD look fresher, but might not, especially if the case wasn't tumbled of full-length sized during the
reloading process.

OTOH, how many murderers reload their own ammo?
Precious few, I'd guess.

Interesting to postulate, though.....

-Stretch
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by Grizz »

here's the deal. every clueless jury member is a vote to convict regardless of the accuracy or strength of the evidence.

i have a strong suspicion that you can't get absolute conclusive proof that a cartridge was ejected from a particular gun unless there were abnormal parts fitted, but it is staple of t.v. who-done-its.

I am not certain that rifling on recovered bullets is absolutely unique . . . are there scientific proofs that barrel striations are as unique as, say, DNA evidence? what is the margin of error on rifling?

"bullets match the rifling" has been accepted as error-free conclusive PROOF for decades. the problem is that clueless jurors can accept "expert testimony" concerning anything and everything. innocent men have spent their lives in prison because of this.

and these days, after the perps of the woohan die-off have been exposed, caught red handed, after the "excess deaths" that are a result of the darned mrna poison, there are still experts citing the benefit and value of more shots and more boosters, and the gullible are persuaded by the white coat and the stethoscope used to listen to their hearts failing from the spike protean.

they, the marxist whores, believe their own lies and they have been given a strong delusion.

it is the deluded deceiving the gullible.

of course there is a REALLY GOOD ENDING to all this palaver

User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by marlinman93 »

It might be a case of a preponderance of evidence.
Extractor marks can trace a cartridge to a brand of gun.
Cartridges would give them the caliber, so they also have that, and the brand of ammo.
So if the suspect owns the same type of gun, ammo, and the single cartridge is the same brand as some he has in his possession, then it might all add up to more evidence on top of whatever else they have?
This alone couldn't result in a conviction, but if they have any other evidence this might push it to a conviction.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
MingoKid
Levergunner 1.0
Posts: 76
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2015 8:01 am
Location: Kentucky

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by MingoKid »

The cartridge case may have a thumbprint that matches the suspect? Places suspect at the scene? I'm in Louisville KY and have been following the case. Strange Doins'. MK
I know not what the future holds, but I know who holds the future!
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31932
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by AJMD429 »

.
Wow.... here's the latest in local news on the case... https://wibc.com/142827/judge-sets-janu ... ders-case/

I know that goot attorneys can convince you the Pacific Ocean is a desert or the Moon is made of cheese, but it does sound pretty convincing that he didn't do what a guilty person would likely have done.

Who knows. I guess God does, and hopefully God will direct the law enforcement and judicial system accordingly.

Sadly, that hasn't been going all that well lately, judging by the election corruption and Jan 6th issues... :|
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
Sarge
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:54 am
Location: MO

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by Sarge »

Extractor/ejector marks on fired casings are toolmark evidence which can be used to positively match a fired casing to an individual firearm.

Civil cases are decided on a preponderance of evidence.

The standard of proof required in criminal cases is beyond a reasonable doubt.
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by Grizz »

Sarge wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:14 am Extractor/ejector marks on fired casings are toolmark evidence which can be used to positively match a fired casing to an individual firearm.
Hey Sarge. this is a subject that interests me and i would like to read up on the facts about tool mark evidence.
Something studied exhaustively and explored using the scientific method of testing.

thanks for the input



p.s. here is a response from the man's defense attorneys:
The probable cause affidavit seems to suggest that a single magic bullet is proof of Rick’s guilt. It is a bit premature to engage in any detailed discussions regarding the veracity of this evidence until more discovery is received, but it is safe to say that the discipline of tool-mark identification (ballistics) is anything but a science. The entire discipline has been under attack in courtrooms across this country as being unreliable and lacking any scientific validity. We anticipate a vigorous legal and factual challenge to any claims by the prosecution as to the reliability of its conclusions concerning the single magic bullet.
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by marlinman93 »

I think we can guess, or theorize about this all day long, and not really come up with an answer. It sounds like politics are also involved, and some internal conflict in the department that's driving some of the case. I hope that justice is served, but hope the right person is convicted, whoever it is.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by Grizz »

marlinman93 wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 12:24 pm I think we can guess, or theorize about this all day long, and not really come up with an answer. It sounds like politics are also involved, and some internal conflict in the department that's driving some of the case. I hope that justice is served, but hope the right person is convicted, whoever it is.
I totally agree with you. unfortunately the whole thing reeks of a set up on the wrong guy to me. so far.
User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6830
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by jeepnik »

Anyone who thinks trial are about telling the truth of an incident is sadly mistaken.

Attorneys on all sides will flat out lie (apparently they aren’t subject to perjury laws). Every person that testifies is going to say what they believe is in their best interest. And when was the last time you heard of a convicted person, who swore they were innocent be convicted of lying under oath?

Best to avoid courts and lawyers all together. It is the most corrupt and politically motivated system existing today.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
1894cfan
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1493
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:07 am

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by 1894cfan »

jeepnik wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:11 pm
Best to avoid courts and lawyers all together. It is the most corrupt and politically motivated system existing today.
Just ask Alex Jones!
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by Grizz »

1894cfan wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 3:53 pm
jeepnik wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:11 pm
Best to avoid courts and lawyers all together. It is the most corrupt and politically motivated system existing today.
Just ask Alex Jones!
who is that? i might have heard of him, but don't know anything about him
User avatar
Sarge
Levergunner 3.0
Posts: 864
Joined: Sat Mar 01, 2008 10:54 am
Location: MO

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by Sarge »

Grizz wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 11:18 am
Sarge wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 10:14 am Extractor/ejector marks on fired casings are toolmark evidence which can be used to positively match a fired casing to an individual firearm.
Hey Sarge. this is a subject that interests me and i would like to read up on the facts about tool mark evidence.
Something studied exhaustively and explored using the scientific method of testing.

thanks for the input



p.s. here is a response from the man's defense attorneys:
The probable cause affidavit seems to suggest that a single magic bullet is proof of Rick’s guilt. It is a bit premature to engage in any detailed discussions regarding the veracity of this evidence until more discovery is received, but it is safe to say that the discipline of tool-mark identification (ballistics) is anything but a science. The entire discipline has been under attack in courtrooms across this country as being unreliable and lacking any scientific validity. We anticipate a vigorous legal and factual challenge to any claims by the prosecution as to the reliability of its conclusions concerning the single magic bullet.
You're welcome Grizz. This is a real good look at toolmark evidence as it pertains to firearms.

https://www.firearmsid.com/

Of course I don't have any particulars on the case in question and honestly, don't want any. I waded that stuff for about 30 years and am happy to be away from it.
People were smarter before the Internet, or imbeciles were harder to notice.
1894cfan
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1493
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:07 am

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by 1894cfan »

Grizz, check out www.infowars.com and banned.video. He made a statement about Sandy Hook being a false flag op and got taken to court for exercising his first amendment right, couldn't defend himself and found guilty and forced to pay nearly a billion dollars! :twisted:
4t5
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1247
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2007 8:28 am

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by 4t5 »

anytime an elected official is involved , you already have 2 strikes against you.
Rumble.com/ hickock45
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by Grizz »

THANKS for the info guys, makes me wonder about all the holocaust deniers, can we sue them?

all this stuff makes me want to wretch

Aaaargggx †
stretch
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2284
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by stretch »

Best to avoid courts and lawyers all together.
Yep. You get to court, you've already lost.........
(Maybe not the trial, but lots of time and money.)

-Stretch
308magtip
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 206
Joined: Sat Nov 16, 2013 1:59 pm
Location: Stevens,Lancaster co Pa

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by 308magtip »

Factor this one in also. Latest Shooting Times article has a .38/357 using 9mm bullets. Jacketed bullets in a wheel gun. Several years ago I bought a bag of 100 supposed to be and were marked so .38/357. Working last step which is bullet seating I was having tough time seating bullets.Crushes several cases even with a slight flared mouth.Got out my micomete and the mic at .358 or for 9mm. erro made in repacking from 5000 box to 100 bag count.
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31932
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: Cartridge found at crime scene

Post by AJMD429 »

.
In the movie 'Shooter' the bad guy used paper-patch bullets.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
Post Reply