Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

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JimT
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Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by JimT »

1894cfan
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by 1894cfan »

Saw an NTSB youtube report that had a still from the front, the radio compartment to just forward of the top turret was destroyed. Pilots likely gone before they even hit the ground. :(
stretch
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by stretch »

Thanks for the video Jim - it's excellent.

I think they're going to find the following cause(s).

1. The parade course should have been designed with altitude separation.
2. The parade course should not have had fighters passing on the inside of the bomber in turns.
(I didn't know this was a BIG NO-NO, but the narrator's explanation of things vis-a-vis air races
makes complete sense. Keep the aircraft you're passing in sight at all times.)
3. The pilot of the P-63 lost situational awareness.
4. The pilot of the P-63 should not have passed the B-17 on the inside of a turn where his vision was blocked.

It's a tremendous tragedy, but in retrospect it seems to have been avoidable.

-Stretch
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marlinman93
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by marlinman93 »

And the pilot of the P63 should not have been passing at a higher altitude from the B17 where he had the B17 in a totally blind spot. Had he been lower than the B17 he'd have always kept it in his view.
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450 Fuller
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by 450 Fuller »

My Dad would agree with the constructive comments posted, if he were alive now.

He was a bombardier on the B-24 "Modest Maiden" with 30 missions
over occupied France and Germany. There are only so many of these A/C
flying and we lost two with crew. Fuel and oil consumption very high on a B-17.

My wife's only surviving uncle was killed in 1944 by an 88 mm -AA direct hit-piloting
the B-17 "Blue Streak" over Mersburg . LT David Paris
of New Albany, IN.

The "greatest generation" would expect us to protect the US against all
enemies, foreign and domestic.
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Grizz
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by Grizz »

hopefully there is a transcript of the pilot briefing, which should answer some of the big questions.

prayers UP . . . †
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by Griff »

NTSB Preliminary Report does not reflect well on the Air Boss.
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JimT
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by JimT »

Griff wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:00 am NTSB Preliminary Report does not reflect well on the Air Boss.
I saw that NTSB report. I sort of figured something like that happened. I think if it is investigated they will find he was not qualified to be an air boss.
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jeepnik
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by jeepnik »

Once upon a time the ntsb was all about finding cause to prevent future accidents. Somewhere along the way they changed and now are about assigning blame for litigation.

When there is no clear cut results of their investigation they default to pilot error.

I watched and supported USAF & USN investigation teams on three incidents, mid air F-4 vs F-101, A-4 engine failure and KC-135 ground strike. Those teams took weeks to months to determine cause. And never announced “preliminary guesses” for the sake of self promoting news coverage.

It’s this hurry up and blame someone before the facts are known that has destroyed the ntsb reputation.
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by stretch »

I read the preliminary report.

Seems the fighters were supposed to be in front of the bombers 500 ft. from the audience,
and the bombers were suppose to be behind the fighters 1000 ft. from the audience.

In the video from Jim's other post, the P-63 appeared to be WAY behind the other fighters and closing fast.
He was also crossing left-to-right across the 1000-foot-from-the-audience line at the same altitude as the
B-17, as if he was trying to get into the correct position with the other fighters. In doing so, it looks like
he lost sight of the B-17.

How much fault is to be ascribed to the P-63 pilot and how much is to be ascribed
to the air boss is beyond my ken. I'm guessing the FAA will assign blame to both.
The FAA is usually quite good about getting to the root cause(s) in these accidents.

It's a tragedy. It also appears to have been avoidable.

-Stretch
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by 1894cfan »

The flight pattern SHOULD have been addressed during the pilots briefing and NOT deviated from! Also, the pilots SHOULD have been allowed to question the briefing and not been penalized for doing so! So most of the fault belongs to the Air Boss! If I'm wrong, let me know.
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by jeepnik »

There’s a video out showing what appears to be a drone colliding with the P-63 and the P-63 loosing power. Teal or fake who knows. But considering what idiots do with drones it wouldn’t surprise me.
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I just saw a reference to that image this morning. It is beyond infuriating to even consider that there might have a drone up there.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/da ... 870f722083
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Grizz
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by Grizz »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Wed Dec 07, 2022 9:25 am I just saw a reference to that image this morning. It is beyond infuriating to even consider that there might have a drone up there.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/da ... 870f722083
if this exonerates the pilots it will be a great mercy to the families †
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JimT
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by JimT »

The NTSB and FAA have faulted the Air Boss. There was no altitude difference between the inner flight and the outer flight and the Air Boss directed the inner flight to cross over to the right and fly the outer while the bombers were to cross over to the left and fly the inner. That is a gross violation of the rules set down for air shows. You do not cross flight paths.

If the P63 lost power it would not have overtaken the bomber. If you have ever been in an airplane that lost power its like putting the brakes on. I have personally experienced it. The plane slows down a lot and quickly. I don't buy the drone story. That's only my opinion and I have been wrong before. But I don't buy it.
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Re: Wings Over Dallas Mid-Air Collision Report

Post by stretch »

You do not cross flight paths.
Yeah - that's a bad thing to do without altitude separation.

It's obvious that the flight paths crossed; the question was
who decided that that was a good idea - the pilot or the air boss?

Sounds now as if the air boss directed the P-63 pilot to do so,
and the pilot assumed - and it's a correct assumption - that the air boss would not instruct
him to perform a maneuver that would kill him.

Such a shame - my heart goes out to the families involved.

-Stretch
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