I've only 'gotten serious' about the leverguns I've owned and shot in the last few years, so I did not know about this book until I saw a reference to it last month. I got a copy off Amazon and have enjoyed it, learned a lot, and applied some of the recommendations to solve problems. Wonderful collection of information by an obvious expert!
One thing puzzles me: he does not include reference to the 45 Colt in a lever action rifle. I'm sure he's explained that somewhere, but I can't find any discussions. Anybody here point me at an article or discussion on the subject I'd appreciate it.
Mcpherson on Leverguns
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Bruce in WV
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Bruce .. I sent your question to Mic. He responded with the following:
Dear Sir,
Thank you for the kind words.
When I wrote McPherson on Leverguns, I originally intended that book only as an anthology covering representative examples of custom Marlins I had built.
Not unexpectedly, it then morphed into something a bit more than that. It now covers, in some detail, how and what I did to make the Marlin into the finest traditional lever-action rifle possible; and it includes discussions on a few other custom rifles projects of mine.
Because I never built a custom Marlin in 45 Colt chambering, I could not include one of those as a representative example. Therefore I did not include any discussions specific to that chambering. I did build one 1894 Marlin in 454 Casull, so I do have some related knowledge. For that gun, I required the owner, who happens to be a premium reamer maker and a friend I can trust, to assure me he would never use any loads generating more than about 45,000 psi in it, because doing so will eventually ruin it. He reports that he's now been trying to wear it out for about 25 years; so far, without any success, after many thousands of rounds.
I can tell you that, generally, anything said about the 44 Magnum chambered in the 1894 Marlin is entirely applicable to the 45 Colt chambered in the 1894 Marlin. The modest difference in case diameter, 23/1000-inch, makes very little difference in functionality or capabilities. The reduced difference in diameters between the case bodies and case rims can make a slight difference with how the camming of the carrier works, with regard to cutting off the magazine tube and doing so without jamming a round partway into the action. It this regard, timing and fitment in the 45 Colt version can be more critical, but this is of little consequence.
Generally, with proof testing to verify safety with such loads, the 45 Colt version of the 1894 Marlin can do anything the 44 Magnum version of that gun can do. In other words, if you are willing to, and capable of, properly proof testing an 1894 Marlin chambered in 45 Colt, as necessary, you will have assurance that it will safely tolerate loads generating just as much energy as any 44 Magnum load that is safe to use in the 1894 Marlin does The issue is: The factory did not test the 45 Colt rifles at a high enough pressure to assure safety with such loads. So, firing such loads places the liability entirely on the shooter.
I am unsure what sort of additional information you are looking for. In any case, I would help if I could.
All the best,
Mic
Dear Sir,
Thank you for the kind words.
When I wrote McPherson on Leverguns, I originally intended that book only as an anthology covering representative examples of custom Marlins I had built.
Not unexpectedly, it then morphed into something a bit more than that. It now covers, in some detail, how and what I did to make the Marlin into the finest traditional lever-action rifle possible; and it includes discussions on a few other custom rifles projects of mine.
Because I never built a custom Marlin in 45 Colt chambering, I could not include one of those as a representative example. Therefore I did not include any discussions specific to that chambering. I did build one 1894 Marlin in 454 Casull, so I do have some related knowledge. For that gun, I required the owner, who happens to be a premium reamer maker and a friend I can trust, to assure me he would never use any loads generating more than about 45,000 psi in it, because doing so will eventually ruin it. He reports that he's now been trying to wear it out for about 25 years; so far, without any success, after many thousands of rounds.
I can tell you that, generally, anything said about the 44 Magnum chambered in the 1894 Marlin is entirely applicable to the 45 Colt chambered in the 1894 Marlin. The modest difference in case diameter, 23/1000-inch, makes very little difference in functionality or capabilities. The reduced difference in diameters between the case bodies and case rims can make a slight difference with how the camming of the carrier works, with regard to cutting off the magazine tube and doing so without jamming a round partway into the action. It this regard, timing and fitment in the 45 Colt version can be more critical, but this is of little consequence.
Generally, with proof testing to verify safety with such loads, the 45 Colt version of the 1894 Marlin can do anything the 44 Magnum version of that gun can do. In other words, if you are willing to, and capable of, properly proof testing an 1894 Marlin chambered in 45 Colt, as necessary, you will have assurance that it will safely tolerate loads generating just as much energy as any 44 Magnum load that is safe to use in the 1894 Marlin does The issue is: The factory did not test the 45 Colt rifles at a high enough pressure to assure safety with such loads. So, firing such loads places the liability entirely on the shooter.
I am unsure what sort of additional information you are looking for. In any case, I would help if I could.
All the best,
Mic
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Bruce in WV
- Levergunner 1.0
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- Location: Eastern Panhandle, WV
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Gentlemen,
First, JimT, thank you for facilitating this thread. Your knowledge of the gun world, key personalities, guns and equipment is invaluable to the communities in which you participate. We are in your debt.
Secondly, Mic, thank you for the informative response. My original question was to investigate your experiences working with rifles in this chambering that might help owners/users make the most of our rifles. You have very nicely contributed to that knowledge in your response. I'll print it off the computer and put it inside the cover of my copy of your book for future reference.
Stay safe, be well, shoot straight!
Bruce
First, JimT, thank you for facilitating this thread. Your knowledge of the gun world, key personalities, guns and equipment is invaluable to the communities in which you participate. We are in your debt.
Secondly, Mic, thank you for the informative response. My original question was to investigate your experiences working with rifles in this chambering that might help owners/users make the most of our rifles. You have very nicely contributed to that knowledge in your response. I'll print it off the computer and put it inside the cover of my copy of your book for future reference.
Stay safe, be well, shoot straight!
Bruce
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Thank you Bruce. Mic sent the followup to me and said I was free to share it if I wished. Here it is:
Thanks Jim,
As you certainly could, I could do an entire book on the fantastic 45 Colt, most powerful handgun chambering until the advent of the 357 Magnum, 62 years later. In this era of the-new-chambering-of-the-month club, that time that record stood seems quite remarkable.
As a youth, and then young adult, I read one after another know-nothing gun writers bloviating all about how the 45 Colt never did actually achieve the advertised 930-fps with the 255-grain bullet of the original load.
All those fireside experts parroted each other’s ignorant claims, based upon no facts. Someone had observed that the modern smokeless load only generated something over 800 fps — the factory claim was 850 fps, and everyone knew factory clams were always optimistic. They then simply assumed that if the modern smokeless load did not reach 930 fps, the original load simply could not have done so and therefore the 930 fps claim was a wild exaggeration — obviously.
Well, this bothered me a little. As a big fan of PO Ackley, I had this odd notion that before making such a claim, one might want to actually do some testing!
And, I knew better anyway. I had studied how those original loads were tested. And I knew that no one involved had any reason to exaggerate the data.
I had access to a first generation Colt revolver, in terrible condition — actually, unserviceable condition. (It had been through a fire and the frame was broken at the front of the top strap!) But, it shot; perhaps not entirely safely, but it shot and how could I hurt it more?
This revolver had the short barrel, not the 7½-inch tube of the Military version, as was used for the original velocity measurements, circa 1873.
I had a handful of semi-ballonhead cases, in good condition.
I also had access to a keg of DuPont FFFg that was older than me. I still have several pounds of that, from my mentor's estate.
I had Winchester factory 45-Colt bullets that were a dead ringer for the original bullet.
What I did not have was access to primers using fulminate of mercury, as the original primers did. But, in the big scheme of things, that difference in primers should not make much velocity difference with blackpowder loads.
So, I set out to prove the point.
I sized six of those cases only far enough down the neck to give all the neck tension possible — just the length of the bullet that would be seated in the case. To maintain as much useable capacity as was feasible I deliberately left the rest of the case as fired. I did this because the original ballooned cases had two or three grains greater capacity than the semi-ballooned cases I was using, so getting the original 40-grain charge under the bullet without significantly damaging the propellant would be difficult enough, any added capacity would help.
I primed those cases with the CCI-300. Then, I carefully charged six of those cases with 40-grains of the DuPont FFFg and settled those charges as much as was possible using a vibratory sander to do that job (it is fascinating to watch the resulting settling happen when you get things just right).
(By the way, the ancient technique of using a long drop-tube to settle blackpowder while charging cases is a waste of good time. Simply swirl-charge the case, you will get a denser charge and better ballistic uniformity. Not an opinion; a proven fact. It is amazing what one can learn from actually testing things!)
Finally, I seated the bullets to normal overall length for the 45 Colt.
I fired those through my early Oehler printed-screen chronograph. Average measured velocity, six-feet from the muzzle: 930 fps.
It is an interesting coincidence that this exactly matched the advertised velocity of the original loads. But, it is nothing more than a coincidence.
Of course, the broken top-strap allowed the barrel-to-cylinder gap to open significantly under the stress of firing, and, therefore, more propellant gas uselessly escaped through that gap. This had to reduce velocity some. Inertia prevented that gap from opening far while the bullet was still in the bore but it had to have opened some. Seminally the shorter barrel had to have resulted in less velocity than in a typical 7½-inch revolver.
Who knows how the other variables (case, primer, and propellant) might have influenced the results, one way or the other? But, I was and am entirely satisfied that the original loads fired in original revolvers with 7½-inch barrels would have had no problem generating the claimed velocity.
Those loads were tested using random example cartridges from production fired in random revolvers from production. That method was standard practice in that era. And, no one involved had any incentive to fudge the data.
Data fudging began later, not much later, but later, and it was pernicious. Equally, it was everywhere.
Some folks seemed to have believed only U.S. ammo makers exaggerated velocity data; not so, every British ammunition manufacturer significantly exaggerated their data too. For example, when actually tested, the vaunted British Double-Rifle Nitro-Express loads in various chamberings that were all rated at around 2100 fps proved, without exception, to actually generate between 1800 and 1900 fps.
Anyway, this is only a tidbit of what I learned over the decades working with the 45 Colt, which I still consider the finest general-purpose revolver cartridge ever invented. Loaded to original specifications, it'll do exactly what the US Cavalry wanted it to do, which is not what most readers might expect!
To understand that, one has to know the following disconcerting fact: Between the end of the Civil War and 1886, the era from the beginning to almost the end of the great cattle drives of Western Lore, one-half of all those men moving those herds to market (who were never called cowboys in that era) died from one specific cause. They were stomped or dragged to death after being thrown from an ill mannered horse and getting their foot caught in the stirrup!
Introduction of high-healed boots and the wider adoption of the, vastly superior, Mexican-style stirrups (tapaderos) practically ended that reign of untimely and widespread death.
Meanwhile, the US Cavalry wanted its soldiers to be armed with a gun they could operate with one hand and that would have sufficient power that they might be able to kill the unruly beast before it killed them.
Another tidbit worth considering: The prototype 45 Colt revolver, a Model of 1872, was carried up the Missouri River on an expedition in that year. The first two shots fired from that gun for effect in the field killed two inland grizzly bears — well-placed headshots by an obvious marksman on an obviously well trained horse. Regardless of that caveat: two shots, two dead bear.
As noted, folks such as Jim and I, and plenty of others, could go on all day extolling the virtues of the 45 Colt and yet hardly touch the surface.
All the best,
Mic
Thanks Jim,
As you certainly could, I could do an entire book on the fantastic 45 Colt, most powerful handgun chambering until the advent of the 357 Magnum, 62 years later. In this era of the-new-chambering-of-the-month club, that time that record stood seems quite remarkable.
As a youth, and then young adult, I read one after another know-nothing gun writers bloviating all about how the 45 Colt never did actually achieve the advertised 930-fps with the 255-grain bullet of the original load.
All those fireside experts parroted each other’s ignorant claims, based upon no facts. Someone had observed that the modern smokeless load only generated something over 800 fps — the factory claim was 850 fps, and everyone knew factory clams were always optimistic. They then simply assumed that if the modern smokeless load did not reach 930 fps, the original load simply could not have done so and therefore the 930 fps claim was a wild exaggeration — obviously.
Well, this bothered me a little. As a big fan of PO Ackley, I had this odd notion that before making such a claim, one might want to actually do some testing!
And, I knew better anyway. I had studied how those original loads were tested. And I knew that no one involved had any reason to exaggerate the data.
I had access to a first generation Colt revolver, in terrible condition — actually, unserviceable condition. (It had been through a fire and the frame was broken at the front of the top strap!) But, it shot; perhaps not entirely safely, but it shot and how could I hurt it more?
This revolver had the short barrel, not the 7½-inch tube of the Military version, as was used for the original velocity measurements, circa 1873.
I had a handful of semi-ballonhead cases, in good condition.
I also had access to a keg of DuPont FFFg that was older than me. I still have several pounds of that, from my mentor's estate.
I had Winchester factory 45-Colt bullets that were a dead ringer for the original bullet.
What I did not have was access to primers using fulminate of mercury, as the original primers did. But, in the big scheme of things, that difference in primers should not make much velocity difference with blackpowder loads.
So, I set out to prove the point.
I sized six of those cases only far enough down the neck to give all the neck tension possible — just the length of the bullet that would be seated in the case. To maintain as much useable capacity as was feasible I deliberately left the rest of the case as fired. I did this because the original ballooned cases had two or three grains greater capacity than the semi-ballooned cases I was using, so getting the original 40-grain charge under the bullet without significantly damaging the propellant would be difficult enough, any added capacity would help.
I primed those cases with the CCI-300. Then, I carefully charged six of those cases with 40-grains of the DuPont FFFg and settled those charges as much as was possible using a vibratory sander to do that job (it is fascinating to watch the resulting settling happen when you get things just right).
(By the way, the ancient technique of using a long drop-tube to settle blackpowder while charging cases is a waste of good time. Simply swirl-charge the case, you will get a denser charge and better ballistic uniformity. Not an opinion; a proven fact. It is amazing what one can learn from actually testing things!)
Finally, I seated the bullets to normal overall length for the 45 Colt.
I fired those through my early Oehler printed-screen chronograph. Average measured velocity, six-feet from the muzzle: 930 fps.
It is an interesting coincidence that this exactly matched the advertised velocity of the original loads. But, it is nothing more than a coincidence.
Of course, the broken top-strap allowed the barrel-to-cylinder gap to open significantly under the stress of firing, and, therefore, more propellant gas uselessly escaped through that gap. This had to reduce velocity some. Inertia prevented that gap from opening far while the bullet was still in the bore but it had to have opened some. Seminally the shorter barrel had to have resulted in less velocity than in a typical 7½-inch revolver.
Who knows how the other variables (case, primer, and propellant) might have influenced the results, one way or the other? But, I was and am entirely satisfied that the original loads fired in original revolvers with 7½-inch barrels would have had no problem generating the claimed velocity.
Those loads were tested using random example cartridges from production fired in random revolvers from production. That method was standard practice in that era. And, no one involved had any incentive to fudge the data.
Data fudging began later, not much later, but later, and it was pernicious. Equally, it was everywhere.
Some folks seemed to have believed only U.S. ammo makers exaggerated velocity data; not so, every British ammunition manufacturer significantly exaggerated their data too. For example, when actually tested, the vaunted British Double-Rifle Nitro-Express loads in various chamberings that were all rated at around 2100 fps proved, without exception, to actually generate between 1800 and 1900 fps.
Anyway, this is only a tidbit of what I learned over the decades working with the 45 Colt, which I still consider the finest general-purpose revolver cartridge ever invented. Loaded to original specifications, it'll do exactly what the US Cavalry wanted it to do, which is not what most readers might expect!
To understand that, one has to know the following disconcerting fact: Between the end of the Civil War and 1886, the era from the beginning to almost the end of the great cattle drives of Western Lore, one-half of all those men moving those herds to market (who were never called cowboys in that era) died from one specific cause. They were stomped or dragged to death after being thrown from an ill mannered horse and getting their foot caught in the stirrup!
Introduction of high-healed boots and the wider adoption of the, vastly superior, Mexican-style stirrups (tapaderos) practically ended that reign of untimely and widespread death.
Meanwhile, the US Cavalry wanted its soldiers to be armed with a gun they could operate with one hand and that would have sufficient power that they might be able to kill the unruly beast before it killed them.
Another tidbit worth considering: The prototype 45 Colt revolver, a Model of 1872, was carried up the Missouri River on an expedition in that year. The first two shots fired from that gun for effect in the field killed two inland grizzly bears — well-placed headshots by an obvious marksman on an obviously well trained horse. Regardless of that caveat: two shots, two dead bear.
As noted, folks such as Jim and I, and plenty of others, could go on all day extolling the virtues of the 45 Colt and yet hardly touch the surface.
All the best,
Mic
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Griff
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
EXCELLENT! Thank you all!
Griff,
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
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There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Mic's knowledge is unprecidented in my experience!!!
-Tutt
-Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
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Sixgun
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
One thing I'm sure of and that's the black powder back in the day was more powerful than powder made (just guessing) 1900. I've taken apart original military 45-70's and loaded the powder in modern cases (what I could get in) and it really went booooommm!...
As for the 45 Long Colt, I've had these for near 50 years and maybe it's time to test em out and chrono them. I've found original factory loaded black powder rounds to be more reliable than early smokeless ammo even though the smokeless was made later.
Dunno about the Benet primed one. I'll pick out a revolver with a heavy hammer spring.
Yes, Old Savage, there WAS a "45 Long Colt" ...see pics.
----006
As for the 45 Long Colt, I've had these for near 50 years and maybe it's time to test em out and chrono them. I've found original factory loaded black powder rounds to be more reliable than early smokeless ammo even though the smokeless was made later.
Dunno about the Benet primed one. I'll pick out a revolver with a heavy hammer spring.
Yes, Old Savage, there WAS a "45 Long Colt" ...see pics.
----006
Last edited by Sixgun on Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
I have some of those "short .45 Colt" cartridges. As you know (others here may not) I wrote this up year ago for Peterson's ... a copy of the article can be found here ... https://leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm
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Sixgun
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Ha! I tell ya Jim, that one part was funny.........as I was reading it I was going to respond, "dang Jim, that's probably the last animal to be shot with a factory 45 SHORT Colt.......and you beat me to it on the last line.JimT wrote: ↑Tue Nov 15, 2022 11:30 pm I have some of those "short .45 Colt" cartridges. As you know (others here may not) I wrote this up year ago for Peterson's ... a copy of the article can be found here ... https://leverguns.com/articles/taylor/45_short_colt.htm
In Elmers "Sixguns" he writes that as a boy one of his mentors was teaching him to shoot "Remington squib loads" at a linoleum floor. Geeze, 28 grains of black with a 230 grain bullet ain't no squib load to me but was to Elmer.
Ya know, don't mean to "correct you" as I may be wrong but maybe those loads you have were meant for people who had Schofields as per the "government" lettering.
I've also heard that there was confusion back in the day when the 1911 came out. While the correct terminology is the ".45 a.c.p." , most people called it the Colt 45.. Maybe that's where the confusion came from but the earlier story has more credence.
Funny thing, I've been nostalgic as heck on most all of the old rounds, especially the dash numbered one but the 45 L. Colt never bit me.....I have a few.....just sold an 1878/1902 Philippine Constabulary "Alaskan".....along with a few Single action Colts which I still have but the 44 Spl is the cartridge that has enamored me...-----006.....ya know Jim, ain't many of us left from the old school....
Last edited by Sixgun on Mon Nov 21, 2022 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
I have thought about that "government" on the box ... but the rims are smaller than the Schofield's rims. It could be it was made that way so it could be used in both the Colt and Schofield ... but whatever it's purpose it is a SHORT .45 Colt! 
And yep .. I remember Keith writing about the short Remington 45s.
And yep .. I remember Keith writing about the short Remington 45s.
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AJMD429
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
.
As far as his comments about 45 Colt and 44 Magnum in the Marlin, I can attest to taking the Marlin 1894 I bought in the mid-70s and simply unscrewing the barrel and replacing it with a Marlin made round barrel from Numrich Arms I got for $100.
At the time I called Marlin and asked him if I would need to replace any internals and they said no. The only casualty was since you have to have the bolt in the receiver if you're going to clamp it super hard, so you don't bend it, I forgot to have it slightly pulled back and as I screwed in the new barrel I ripped off the extractor.
The gun has functioned perfectly. As far as loads I guess I shoot what would be called 'modern' loads, but perhaps not 'Ruger-only' loads. If I need that much power I'll either use my 444 Marlin, or my Rossi 454 casull model 92. I've often thought that if I had to pick two guns that would cover a lot of bases I'd pick a Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt with a 45 ACP cylinder and a Marlin 1894 45 Colt. With hand loading there's not a lot that that pair wouldn't cover as far as self-defense or hunting or home protection.
As far as his comments about 45 Colt and 44 Magnum in the Marlin, I can attest to taking the Marlin 1894 I bought in the mid-70s and simply unscrewing the barrel and replacing it with a Marlin made round barrel from Numrich Arms I got for $100.
At the time I called Marlin and asked him if I would need to replace any internals and they said no. The only casualty was since you have to have the bolt in the receiver if you're going to clamp it super hard, so you don't bend it, I forgot to have it slightly pulled back and as I screwed in the new barrel I ripped off the extractor.
The gun has functioned perfectly. As far as loads I guess I shoot what would be called 'modern' loads, but perhaps not 'Ruger-only' loads. If I need that much power I'll either use my 444 Marlin, or my Rossi 454 casull model 92. I've often thought that if I had to pick two guns that would cover a lot of bases I'd pick a Ruger Redhawk in 45 Colt with a 45 ACP cylinder and a Marlin 1894 45 Colt. With hand loading there's not a lot that that pair wouldn't cover as far as self-defense or hunting or home protection.
Last edited by AJMD429 on Thu Nov 17, 2022 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
It's funny that some otherwise reasonably good gun writers got the .45 Colt wrong not all that long ago. I liked the way the late Bob Milek wrote about his native Wyoming and his adventures with his pal Steve Herrett as they developed the .30 and .357 Herrett cartridges for the Contender. In fact, the .30 Herrett was the first wildcat I ever case formed and loaded for.
But here he is in 1979, in Peterson Publications' "Handgun Hunting":
".45 Colt
I am including this cartridge in my list of big game cartridges as a favor to those few hunters who load it to magnum levels in the Contender and New Model Blackhawk revolvers. Personally, I don't feel that the .45 Colt was ever intended to be a magnum and I avoid hot loads like the plague if for no other reason than that .45 Colt cases aren't designed for the high magnum pressures.
There are those hunters, I am sorry to say, who insist that the .45 Colt is a superb big game round without being souped up. One not-so-bright writer had the guts to say that on game he's never been able to tell any difference between the ,45 Colt and the .44 Magnum. Just how gullible does that guy think today's handgun hunter is? That statement is like saying the .25-35 does as well on big game as the .25-06! I can only conclude that the writer has never killed anything bigger than coyotes with either cartridge."
Be fun to listen in to the conversation if Milek, Brian Pearce and John Linebaugh were all having beers, eh?
But here he is in 1979, in Peterson Publications' "Handgun Hunting":
".45 Colt
I am including this cartridge in my list of big game cartridges as a favor to those few hunters who load it to magnum levels in the Contender and New Model Blackhawk revolvers. Personally, I don't feel that the .45 Colt was ever intended to be a magnum and I avoid hot loads like the plague if for no other reason than that .45 Colt cases aren't designed for the high magnum pressures.
There are those hunters, I am sorry to say, who insist that the .45 Colt is a superb big game round without being souped up. One not-so-bright writer had the guts to say that on game he's never been able to tell any difference between the ,45 Colt and the .44 Magnum. Just how gullible does that guy think today's handgun hunter is? That statement is like saying the .25-35 does as well on big game as the .25-06! I can only conclude that the writer has never killed anything bigger than coyotes with either cartridge."
Be fun to listen in to the conversation if Milek, Brian Pearce and John Linebaugh were all having beers, eh?
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
You are correct Bill. None of those writers ... including people who should have known better ... ever sectioned a .45 Colt case and compared it to a sectioned 454 Casull case. Those of us who were experimenting with heavy loads in the .45 Colt actually did all that as well as pressure testing.
Gary Hanson was a Government Hunter who killed a lot of bears with a sixgun. He would crawl into caves to get them sometimes! His choice of weapon was a Colt SAA with 300 gr. bullets running around 900 fps if I remember correctly. He never had a problem using that load and liked it better than the .44 Magnum. In tight spaces he did not want all the recoil and blast.
Gary Hanson was a Government Hunter who killed a lot of bears with a sixgun. He would crawl into caves to get them sometimes! His choice of weapon was a Colt SAA with 300 gr. bullets running around 900 fps if I remember correctly. He never had a problem using that load and liked it better than the .44 Magnum. In tight spaces he did not want all the recoil and blast.
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Jim, did Gary Hanson write? His name sure sounds familiar.
Before leaving the subject of the .45 Colt, I'd like to point out a little-known brass and bullet company that actually has the old black Remington 250-grain bullets with the dished base in stock, for $20 per 100.
Google ET Brass. Now I have done it ...
Before leaving the subject of the .45 Colt, I'd like to point out a little-known brass and bullet company that actually has the old black Remington 250-grain bullets with the dished base in stock, for $20 per 100.
Google ET Brass. Now I have done it ...
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
He wrote some articles for John Linebaugh's THE SHOOTIST magazine years ago.Bill in Oregon wrote: ↑Wed Nov 16, 2022 10:24 am Jim, did Gary Hanson write? His name sure sounds familiar.
Before leaving the subject of the .45 Colt, I'd like to point out a little-known brass and bullet company that actually has the old black Remington 250-grain bullets with the dished base in stock, for $20 per 100.
Google ET Brass. Now I have done it ...
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Lots of good information in this topic. I am a relatively uneducated shooter when compared to many of those mentioned here. I do like the .45Colt. My Ruger and some heavy for caliber, 325 grain, bullets running about 900 fps have proven to be accurate. So far I have not captured a fired bullet. I will need to try more milk jugs some day. I have a .44 Magnum Ruger with a scope on it. It is amazingly accurate, and can do whatever I want it to do. Even so, my .45 Colt gets more use and more of my limited carry time. Just based on my limited time and use, there doesn't seem to be a lead nickel's worth of practical difference in the end results from a 325 grain .45 bullet at 900 fps and a .44 Magnum 240 grain bullet at about 1200 fps. The noise is much milder from the .45, and recoil is more of a push than a snap. The scope on the .44 adds enough weight that the recoil is much different than from a pistol without one. Seems to me that my tiny amount of experience is right in line with everything said in this thread.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
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AJMD429
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
.
Terminal ballistics is pretty much just physics, and from a practical standpoint the only parameters you need to fully define a projectile are:
Weight
Shape
Composition
Velocity
Spin
Between 44 magnum and 45 Colt the composition of the projectile can be made to be identical, as can the velocity, as well as the spin.
So really the difference is going to be the projectile weight and shape, which overlaps extensively in terms of both. Weight for any given shape can be higher in the 45 Colt (and lower in the 44 Magnum), but there is quite a bit of overlap in terms of the bullets most of us use. Shape, with the obvious insurmountable difference being a relatively small difference in diameter, also can be similar within most practical limits.
Certainly if the gun can't handle a given cartridge length or shape for proper feeding, or is not commonly supplied with a barrel to provide appropriate twist rates, or is not strong enough to handle pressure is necessary to attain the desired velocity, that is an issue, but it is not an issue with the cartridge, but rather the gun.
Like so many of the interesting and esoteric discussions we of the 'gun culture' enjoy engaging in, it is mostly theoretical, because few among us are good enough at shooting not to be the limiting factor in any firearms engagement between such similar cartridges.
McPherson likely is one of those few, which is why it is such a joy to hear what he has to say.
Terminal ballistics is pretty much just physics, and from a practical standpoint the only parameters you need to fully define a projectile are:
Weight
Shape
Composition
Velocity
Spin
Between 44 magnum and 45 Colt the composition of the projectile can be made to be identical, as can the velocity, as well as the spin.
So really the difference is going to be the projectile weight and shape, which overlaps extensively in terms of both. Weight for any given shape can be higher in the 45 Colt (and lower in the 44 Magnum), but there is quite a bit of overlap in terms of the bullets most of us use. Shape, with the obvious insurmountable difference being a relatively small difference in diameter, also can be similar within most practical limits.
Certainly if the gun can't handle a given cartridge length or shape for proper feeding, or is not commonly supplied with a barrel to provide appropriate twist rates, or is not strong enough to handle pressure is necessary to attain the desired velocity, that is an issue, but it is not an issue with the cartridge, but rather the gun.
Like so many of the interesting and esoteric discussions we of the 'gun culture' enjoy engaging in, it is mostly theoretical, because few among us are good enough at shooting not to be the limiting factor in any firearms engagement between such similar cartridges.
McPherson likely is one of those few, which is why it is such a joy to hear what he has to say.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
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Sixgun
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Big grizzly bears, like all dangerous critters, come in all different sizes of meanness....just like people.......where one guy will cry at a graze wound, another will do what he can do in his "five seconds" of oxygen levels after a shot through the heart......
I was always amazed how a single #6 shot would instantly kill a rabbit where a feral cat can be shot in half and still squirm.
By the way, on my pictures of the bullets, the first number at the top is the rim diameter and all, except the far right commercial round are government made.-----006 and 19/64's....
I was always amazed how a single #6 shot would instantly kill a rabbit where a feral cat can be shot in half and still squirm.
By the way, on my pictures of the bullets, the first number at the top is the rim diameter and all, except the far right commercial round are government made.-----006 and 19/64's....
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
I've only recently begun loading black powder, so pardon my ignorance, but what is swirl-charging? I'm interested.Simply swirl-charge the case, you will get a denser charge and better ballistic uniformity.
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AJMD429
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
I was going to ask the same question.
I was hoping it didn't have anything in common with what we used to call a "swirly" that was sometimes done to initiates to football teams or fraternities...
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.
Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
KWK, its pretty easy to "swirl charge" and no special tools are necessarily needed BUT they can come in very handy. I think Mic covered this in his book "Metallic Cartridge Handloading" but if you don't have a copy of that incredible book, you can get the brief version here on the subject for a buck fifty:(By the way, the ancient technique of using a long drop-tube to settle blackpowder while charging cases is a waste of good time. Simply swirl-charge the case, you will get a denser charge and better ballistic uniformity. Not an opinion; a proven fact. It is amazing what one can learn from actually testing things!)
https://www.amazon.com/Swirl-Charging-C ... B079JC4QD5
What Mic has learned is a way to get a more compact fill and more consistent density fill in a case by what he calls "swirl charging". For many smokeless powders the difference in compactness was 10% which is substantial especially in compressed loads. It also helps with the consistency and density of BP loads. Since I don't load BP, I cannot elaborate further for you on that aspect of it, but it certainly works with smokeless powders. No hazing required by the way!
Kind regards,
-Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
That works?! I probably won't load any more BP until spring, but I'll give it a try.
To the good doctor: The swirl charging loads a case through a funnel, but the powder is poured in to the funnel tangentially so that it spirals down the funnel and in. There are a couple more details in the little extract linked by Tutt.
To the good doctor: The swirl charging loads a case through a funnel, but the powder is poured in to the funnel tangentially so that it spirals down the funnel and in. There are a couple more details in the little extract linked by Tutt.
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Griff
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
All I know is that my very 1st Colt SAA was in a box, a 2nd gen, I bought in 1973 from a gunshop in Costa Mesa, CA on Newport Blvd for $227.97. It that had 2 handwritten things on the outside, in little boxes, plus one labeled Ser. # and in there was a sticker with the serial number, another said Cal. and it in that box was written, .45, lastly there was a box the said bbl: and it had 4-¾ written in it. The box had "Colt" in big letters and also SAA the gun itself was marked with Colt's Patent Firearms Co., Hartford, Conn and a simple .45 near the back of the barrel near the top strap. The 3 boxes of cartridges I purchased the same day were 2 Winchester and a box of Remingtons, they were all lead 250 grain and the boxes were labeled "45 Colt". The salesman never asked if I wanted "short" or "long" Colt ammo. He just set the 3 boxes up on the counter. The 1st set of dies I bought a few days later to reload with were manufactured by RCBS and were in a green plastic box, and all marked, tools & box: .45 Colt. The reloading manual I picked up was Lyman's 45th Edition and inside were loads indicated for the ".45 Colt". The next two sets of dies I bought, also by RCBS but in gray boxes to designate that they contained a Carbide sizing die, and were similarly marked, ".45 Colt". Every piece of brass I purchased was head stamped with .45 Colt. It wasn't until the 1980s and I started to compete in cowboy action matches that I began to receive brass back that wasn't always the Winchester, UMC, Remington, or such that loaded, that I began to see something marked 45LC, mostly by some outfit called CDC or something, and some new outfit called Starline, that just had 2 asterisks, a dash between them and the headstamp 45LC. I asked about this aberration and was told it was to avoid confusion on the part of sales clerks who often confused 45 Colt with 45ACP. However I had read in a history of the Indian war era that the US Army in its infinite wisdom had ordered 2 revolvers in 45 caliber. One the Colt SAA with its 45 Colt ammo and a S&W that due to a shorter cylinder couldn't chamber the Colt ammo, so they were chambered in 45 Schofield. Somewhere in along there the Army, somehow in responding to input from soldiers, developed a reduced charge ammo that dropped the 45 Colt charge of 40 grains of BP to 28. That always seemed suspect to me, as when I was in the military the only thing we got that we asked for was the ability to grow a beard. They seemed to care less if I thought to M-1 kicked to hard or the 1911 bucked a lot. Then I came here and learned of the 45 Colt Gov't. A shorter case version of the 45 Colt and 28 grains of BP. Now I wonder if the reduced load I'd 1st read about was the same as this 45 Colt Gov't. It does seem feasible from a certain logic standpoint. But, I'm still mystified by the apparent need to call the 45 Colt "Long", since it's pretty clear the the 45 Colt Gov't has long ceased being marketed.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
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AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Since we are discussing the 45 Long Colt, a new friend of mine at Levergun's recently sent me a copy of Paco's articles. I don't think such a thread here would be the same without Paco''s input and on his forum, so I'm posting it here. Yes my friend, it did get here OK, and yes, I could decipher the memory chip OK. You will remain anonymous unless you tell me otherwise. Otherwise, very grateful! Now about that 45 "Long" Colt according to Paco and not just Mic, two individuals who have been peers for more than one decade (probably 2 plus) and I would know because Paco referred me to Mic for lever-gunsmithing in the first place many years ago for my 454 Puma. - Tutt
Revolvers....
...45 long Colt and Pressure....by Paco
John Taffin’s articles on the 45 long Colt and the four levels of strength in the handguns chambered for the round is must reading for every 45Colt handgunner....check www.sixguns.com That’s John’s web site.
After reviewing the 60 plus articles I have written for sixgunner.com and earp.com I find that I have not included what every pressure data I have on the 45 Colt in handguns. And also those other works cover the 454, and 45 Colt in a rifle. So I thought I would center on the 45 Colt in handguns......
Now black powder handguns from the 1800s are called black powder guns because....guess what...you are only supposed to shoot black powder in them...what a novel idea in the new days of the 21st century...what you don’t read about is all the wonderful old guns blown because folks try to use smokeless in them....I wouldn’t trust the steel in any gun, especially a 45 Colt revolver built before 1895. The so called mild steel used back then was really what we call wrought iron today. W/Iron is mild steel...but it is not strong steel. I wouldn’t shoot even black powder in any 1800s gun that wasn’t in very good shape.....
Imagine my surprise when a friend sent me an E-Mail copy of a letter published in 1928 sent to the then Major Hatcher in the RIFLEMAN. The writer identified only as A.A.P. writes that he had a 30 year old Colt 45 revolver (which puts at around 1898 manufacture). He states that he had put tens of thousands of his special load thru the gun. That being 5 grains of Bullseye and 9 grains of FFF black powder. And that accuracy was superb. So I tried it in a F/A 454 S/A...accuracy was excellent. Of course I used modern brass which has a smaller interior space then the old balloon headed cases the writer had to have used. Pressures were surprisingly high, near 28000 psi with the Lyman copy of the Colt 45 bullet (255 grain )but the accuracy was good, and the velocities were stable at 1020 fps. There are better loads for old guns, but this one is good for modern guns of good strength. And the Bullseye helps the BP to burn completely, so cleaning is not the issue it is with full loads of BP. I held the powder to the bottom of the cases with a little pillow stuffing over the charge...I don’t like small loads of any powder in large cases without it held to the primer.
Keith early in his writings stated often that the commercial loadings of the 45 Colt were very powerful...that would be 40 grains of black powder and the 255 grain bullet. He upped the bullet weight to 300 grains, lowered the powder to 35 grains or so...and still blew a Colt revolver up. So he went to the 44 Special. The special in the turn of the century and after guns, was made of better steel, and had more steel around the chambers. But the fact remains Keith hunted with the 45 from the age of around 17/18 years to 28 years of age....and would have stayed with it, but for the strength or lack of it, in the old 45 Colt handguns.
Modern brass will not come close to holding 40 grains of black powder....about 36 grains will be the limit. That much Pyrodex will give around 13,000 psi...that much Select will give about 10,000...both will go around 950 fps for the former and 840 fps for the later. 900 fps for a 255 grain bullet is nothing to dismiss...many modern police handguns and chamberings don’t come close to that kind of stopping power. And I have killed a few deer and a black bear with BP loads in the ol’45. They died just as fast as smokeless powder loads. We broke open a few turn of the century (circa 1913) 45 UMC loads they held 8 grains of Bullseye looking powder...and surprisingly so did the Frankfort Arsenal rounds of the same period...8 grains under the 255 grain bullet. That load by the way in modern cases gives just over 21,000 psi. Too heavy as far as I’m concerned for continued use in these old guns.....
All of the above suggests strongly to me that we must be careful with old guns...their strength is unknown, and more importantly, their tolerance for sustained firing of any load over a period of time is unknown...it could add up to unnecessary destruction of a fine old gun.
The next level of handguns in 45 Colt chambering is of course the early 20 century Colt single actions...but there were some double actions also...like the Colt large frame double action, and I have a 1917 S&W chambered in 45 Colt. These are the guns that need to stay at 15,000 to 17000 psi levels. Unique is a fine powder for them...with the 255-260 grain cast or swaged bullets 8 to 9 grains of Unique is in that pressure level...and gives the fine velocity level of the original BP loadings, around 800 to 850 fps at 15,000 psi. But HS7 really comes to the shooter’s rescue with these guns...15 grains under the 250 class of lead bullets gives around 1000 fps at 16000 psi. I once shot a range cow in the head with a 260 Keith at 1000 fps, and the bullet went in below the eye level of the forehead and exited the rear of the head/neck area.....13 inches of flesh and bone.
If you want to use heavy bullets I use the 275 grain cast Keith by NEI...over 14 grains of HS7 and 840 fps with a cost of 15,500 psi....you can load 300 grainers but I found the midline bullet rise over even 70 yards is very high.....12 grains of HS7 will give 800 fps at around 16000 psi.
When we move to the guns made in the late 1920s into the end of the 1940s, things begin to change...the Second World War as most know had Colt drop the Single Actions...not only drop their manufacture but reportedly threw out the machinery..(some say the Great Western Company bought up the machines but I’m not sure that’s true). Though the guns brought out in 45 Colt in this period are almost in the modern steel range...we can’t be sure what parts are used. Many guns were made up from stocks of parts of unknown ages...I like to keep these fine guns under the 20,000 psi levels.....
Under the lead 250 to 260 grain class bullets for these guns I still like HS7...15.5 grains will give well over the 1000 fps mark...and that’s over 570 ft.lbs of muzzle energy! 17 grains of 2400 will give around 1050fps in the same pressure area and over 630 ft.lbs with 18000+ psi. With a cut back Colt (from 7.5 inches to 5.75 inches) this load with a 260 Keith cast bullet completely penetrated thru a black bear I shot in Virginia in 1972 at 55 yards. He was on his hind legs reaching high up into black berry bushes near a little walled grave yard, we had on the property of our wilderness home. The bullet caught him directly into the center chest but to the left of the heart, exited out right of the spine but not hitting it, and out his back. He fell over backwards at the shot. But was up and ran like crazy for about 50 yards. He piled up and died. Just like a heart shot, though it didn’t hit the heart...it took out a number of large blood vessels and gave the same kill performance. He was a little over 250 lbs, and all muscle. With a load many shooters today dismiss as wimpy.
Do we need to rethink some of our megaloads? I mean I’m the first to say load it to the hilt and enjoy it....but lets not lose sight of the facts...it doesn’t take megaloads to kill cleanly 90% of the game in the U.S. and Canada.....If the range is going to be long or the game large then heavy loads yes! But for deer and black bear on down, out to 100 yards or so, accuracy and medium loads are more important and will do quite well.
18.5 grains of 2400 under the same 260 grain Keith gives around 1136 fps....and 25,000 psi. Some won’t use this load in modern and strong Colt and Colt clone single actions. But I have used it since 1970, extensively in Colts and clones....never a problem. I have not tried it in a S&W double action on an N-Frame yet but see no problem with that either. 11 grains of Unique will give the same pressures and around the same velocity about 1150 fps...again strong modern single actions if they are Colts or clones. 8.5 grains of Bullseye will give about 1000 to 1050 fps but the cost is 24,000 psi....The nice thing about 2400 that seems to have slipped away in our quest for ball powders...is that Winchester warns us not to go BELOW their recommended load by more than 10% with 296....so that would go for H110 also. No such problem with 2400.
In these guns using the various 300 grain cast bullets 16.5 grains of 2400 will go above 1000 fps easy and within pressure limits for these SAs. I have used 4227 also with 20 grains for around 1100 plus fps and superb accuracy....that’s over 800 ft.lbs of muzzle energy....
I will let you in on a Paco Secret...Lee makes a black powder mold that is hollow based for 45 caliber rifles. (454-298-m) Because of the way it is set up with lube grooves that will size evenly even though it is oversized for 45 handguns...you can size it down to .452 or so without problems, the hollow base gives outstanding accuracy....and loaded backwards that big hollow base becomes the best hollow nosed bullet the 45s ever had.
Paco’s Custom Ruger 45 Colt...Pope barrel, super BlkHawk grip..
Ruger handguns, especially the SAs are in a class all their own....I will go to magnum pressure in my Ruger 45 Colt chambered sixguns. That’s up to around 30,000 + psi.....I have blown the cylinders out of Ruger 45s, so be very careful with this information....but what I have found ‘safe loads’ is a little heavier than what I read most times....20/2400/260 Keith will do 1225 fps...at a cost of 27,000 psi. Now I go to 22 grains when I’m going to go heavy game hunting with my Rugers in this caliber. But that generates over 34,000 psi....the velocity is well over 1370 fps...it is a true magnum load that gives near 1100 ft.lbs. of energy.....I would use the 20/2400/260k in a Colt New Frontier sparingly...but not the 22/2400/260K that’s pushing it.
I use these heavy loads in my Rugers, but I also carefully check the bolt cuts in the cylinders often for expansion of the cylinder wall into the cut, or for cracks or battering around the cuts...if I see any of this I back off....IMR800X is a strange powder, in the Rugers in 45 Colt cases it’s a fairly slow burner...14 grains gives around 1370 fps and the pressure is still acceptable at 26,500 psi. Which is excellent in my guns...with very acceptable accuracy. Last five shot group I fired at 50 yards with this load went into 3.2 inches...that was with a scoped Ruger off a Paco/Taffin rest, (A rolled up carpet off the hood of the pickup).
13.5 grains of this IMR800X, under a 300 grain Keith RCBS bullet gives 1270 fps and 28,000 plus psi. HS7 can not get to that velocity with 300 grain bullets without going way into unacceptable pressure levels....this is where burning rate tables for gun powder are misleading....HS7 and IMR800x are listed as if they are in the same class...maybe in some chamberings but not this one...always start low and work up with any of these powders...............
24/4227/260K will get around 1250 fps...25 grains will break 1300 fps but that’s where I stop with this powder....again these are powerful loads. With WW 296 or H110 and the 250 jacketed bullets 24 to 25 grains will give around 1250 fps and acceptable pressure...with the 260 grain Keith the velocity will be higher with the same loads.
The old 45 Colt round is now over 130 years old...with modern guns and powders it is like it was invented yesterday...with today’s components even the older guns can be carefully loaded to take large game to the elk class....45s have always fascinated me no matter what round I’m working with or playing with at the moment....and the 45 Colt round has not only power but class.
45 long Colt PlusP loads and pressures...
for strong handguns only...for information only...
New Colt SA&clones
Ruger SA
POWDER/GRS BULLET WGT
VELOCITY
7&1/2 BBL
APPROX-
PRESSURE
FT.LBS/MUZZLE
TKO....
“
AA#5/15G/200GR
SWC CAST
1300 FPS
20,500 CUP
M.E. 750 LBS
TKO 16.8
“
AA#7/18.5/200GR
SWC CAST
1330 FPS
20,000 CUP
M.E. S/A
TKO S/A
“
AA#5/16 GR/230
ACP RN CAST
1240 FPS
21,000 CUP
M.E. 785 LBS
TKO 18.4
“
AA#7/14 GR
230 ACP/CAST RN
1255 fps
21,400 cup
M.E. 804 LBS
TKO 18.6
“
(Hec)A2400/17GR 230 CAST/ACP/RN
1300 FPS
20,000 CUP
M.E. 863 lbs
TKO 19.3
Ruger and stronger
(HERC)2400/18.5
255 K-CAST SWC
1270 FPS
25,100 CUP
M.E. 913 LBS
TKO 21
Ruger and Stronger
(Herc)2400/20.5
255 K-CAST SWC
1340 FPS
29,800 CUP
M.E. 1016 LBS
NOTE FOR THE 44 MAG TO
reach this takes pressure 40,000 CUP....TKO 23
Ruger and stronger
WW296/25GR
255 K-CAST
1340 FPS
24,100 CUP
M.E. 1016 LBS
TKO 23
NEW COLT&CLONES
I hunted with this
WW296/23GR
255 K-CAST
Keith Blt@1200fps
1224 FPS
for 10 plus years
20,700 CUP
and game to 400lbs plus
M.E. 850 LBS
TKO 20
*note I found this to be
best load in COLT SAs
NEW COLT&CLONES
WW296/20GRS
300 GR CAST
980 FPS
21.000CUP
M.E. 640 LBS
TKO 19
SECTION FIVE CHAPTERS Pressure Data MegaMags 454 454 A Mega Magnum
Revolvers....
...45 long Colt and Pressure....by Paco
John Taffin’s articles on the 45 long Colt and the four levels of strength in the handguns chambered for the round is must reading for every 45Colt handgunner....check www.sixguns.com That’s John’s web site.
After reviewing the 60 plus articles I have written for sixgunner.com and earp.com I find that I have not included what every pressure data I have on the 45 Colt in handguns. And also those other works cover the 454, and 45 Colt in a rifle. So I thought I would center on the 45 Colt in handguns......
Now black powder handguns from the 1800s are called black powder guns because....guess what...you are only supposed to shoot black powder in them...what a novel idea in the new days of the 21st century...what you don’t read about is all the wonderful old guns blown because folks try to use smokeless in them....I wouldn’t trust the steel in any gun, especially a 45 Colt revolver built before 1895. The so called mild steel used back then was really what we call wrought iron today. W/Iron is mild steel...but it is not strong steel. I wouldn’t shoot even black powder in any 1800s gun that wasn’t in very good shape.....
Imagine my surprise when a friend sent me an E-Mail copy of a letter published in 1928 sent to the then Major Hatcher in the RIFLEMAN. The writer identified only as A.A.P. writes that he had a 30 year old Colt 45 revolver (which puts at around 1898 manufacture). He states that he had put tens of thousands of his special load thru the gun. That being 5 grains of Bullseye and 9 grains of FFF black powder. And that accuracy was superb. So I tried it in a F/A 454 S/A...accuracy was excellent. Of course I used modern brass which has a smaller interior space then the old balloon headed cases the writer had to have used. Pressures were surprisingly high, near 28000 psi with the Lyman copy of the Colt 45 bullet (255 grain )but the accuracy was good, and the velocities were stable at 1020 fps. There are better loads for old guns, but this one is good for modern guns of good strength. And the Bullseye helps the BP to burn completely, so cleaning is not the issue it is with full loads of BP. I held the powder to the bottom of the cases with a little pillow stuffing over the charge...I don’t like small loads of any powder in large cases without it held to the primer.
Keith early in his writings stated often that the commercial loadings of the 45 Colt were very powerful...that would be 40 grains of black powder and the 255 grain bullet. He upped the bullet weight to 300 grains, lowered the powder to 35 grains or so...and still blew a Colt revolver up. So he went to the 44 Special. The special in the turn of the century and after guns, was made of better steel, and had more steel around the chambers. But the fact remains Keith hunted with the 45 from the age of around 17/18 years to 28 years of age....and would have stayed with it, but for the strength or lack of it, in the old 45 Colt handguns.
Modern brass will not come close to holding 40 grains of black powder....about 36 grains will be the limit. That much Pyrodex will give around 13,000 psi...that much Select will give about 10,000...both will go around 950 fps for the former and 840 fps for the later. 900 fps for a 255 grain bullet is nothing to dismiss...many modern police handguns and chamberings don’t come close to that kind of stopping power. And I have killed a few deer and a black bear with BP loads in the ol’45. They died just as fast as smokeless powder loads. We broke open a few turn of the century (circa 1913) 45 UMC loads they held 8 grains of Bullseye looking powder...and surprisingly so did the Frankfort Arsenal rounds of the same period...8 grains under the 255 grain bullet. That load by the way in modern cases gives just over 21,000 psi. Too heavy as far as I’m concerned for continued use in these old guns.....
All of the above suggests strongly to me that we must be careful with old guns...their strength is unknown, and more importantly, their tolerance for sustained firing of any load over a period of time is unknown...it could add up to unnecessary destruction of a fine old gun.
The next level of handguns in 45 Colt chambering is of course the early 20 century Colt single actions...but there were some double actions also...like the Colt large frame double action, and I have a 1917 S&W chambered in 45 Colt. These are the guns that need to stay at 15,000 to 17000 psi levels. Unique is a fine powder for them...with the 255-260 grain cast or swaged bullets 8 to 9 grains of Unique is in that pressure level...and gives the fine velocity level of the original BP loadings, around 800 to 850 fps at 15,000 psi. But HS7 really comes to the shooter’s rescue with these guns...15 grains under the 250 class of lead bullets gives around 1000 fps at 16000 psi. I once shot a range cow in the head with a 260 Keith at 1000 fps, and the bullet went in below the eye level of the forehead and exited the rear of the head/neck area.....13 inches of flesh and bone.
If you want to use heavy bullets I use the 275 grain cast Keith by NEI...over 14 grains of HS7 and 840 fps with a cost of 15,500 psi....you can load 300 grainers but I found the midline bullet rise over even 70 yards is very high.....12 grains of HS7 will give 800 fps at around 16000 psi.
When we move to the guns made in the late 1920s into the end of the 1940s, things begin to change...the Second World War as most know had Colt drop the Single Actions...not only drop their manufacture but reportedly threw out the machinery..(some say the Great Western Company bought up the machines but I’m not sure that’s true). Though the guns brought out in 45 Colt in this period are almost in the modern steel range...we can’t be sure what parts are used. Many guns were made up from stocks of parts of unknown ages...I like to keep these fine guns under the 20,000 psi levels.....
Under the lead 250 to 260 grain class bullets for these guns I still like HS7...15.5 grains will give well over the 1000 fps mark...and that’s over 570 ft.lbs of muzzle energy! 17 grains of 2400 will give around 1050fps in the same pressure area and over 630 ft.lbs with 18000+ psi. With a cut back Colt (from 7.5 inches to 5.75 inches) this load with a 260 Keith cast bullet completely penetrated thru a black bear I shot in Virginia in 1972 at 55 yards. He was on his hind legs reaching high up into black berry bushes near a little walled grave yard, we had on the property of our wilderness home. The bullet caught him directly into the center chest but to the left of the heart, exited out right of the spine but not hitting it, and out his back. He fell over backwards at the shot. But was up and ran like crazy for about 50 yards. He piled up and died. Just like a heart shot, though it didn’t hit the heart...it took out a number of large blood vessels and gave the same kill performance. He was a little over 250 lbs, and all muscle. With a load many shooters today dismiss as wimpy.
Do we need to rethink some of our megaloads? I mean I’m the first to say load it to the hilt and enjoy it....but lets not lose sight of the facts...it doesn’t take megaloads to kill cleanly 90% of the game in the U.S. and Canada.....If the range is going to be long or the game large then heavy loads yes! But for deer and black bear on down, out to 100 yards or so, accuracy and medium loads are more important and will do quite well.
18.5 grains of 2400 under the same 260 grain Keith gives around 1136 fps....and 25,000 psi. Some won’t use this load in modern and strong Colt and Colt clone single actions. But I have used it since 1970, extensively in Colts and clones....never a problem. I have not tried it in a S&W double action on an N-Frame yet but see no problem with that either. 11 grains of Unique will give the same pressures and around the same velocity about 1150 fps...again strong modern single actions if they are Colts or clones. 8.5 grains of Bullseye will give about 1000 to 1050 fps but the cost is 24,000 psi....The nice thing about 2400 that seems to have slipped away in our quest for ball powders...is that Winchester warns us not to go BELOW their recommended load by more than 10% with 296....so that would go for H110 also. No such problem with 2400.
In these guns using the various 300 grain cast bullets 16.5 grains of 2400 will go above 1000 fps easy and within pressure limits for these SAs. I have used 4227 also with 20 grains for around 1100 plus fps and superb accuracy....that’s over 800 ft.lbs of muzzle energy....
I will let you in on a Paco Secret...Lee makes a black powder mold that is hollow based for 45 caliber rifles. (454-298-m) Because of the way it is set up with lube grooves that will size evenly even though it is oversized for 45 handguns...you can size it down to .452 or so without problems, the hollow base gives outstanding accuracy....and loaded backwards that big hollow base becomes the best hollow nosed bullet the 45s ever had.
Paco’s Custom Ruger 45 Colt...Pope barrel, super BlkHawk grip..
Ruger handguns, especially the SAs are in a class all their own....I will go to magnum pressure in my Ruger 45 Colt chambered sixguns. That’s up to around 30,000 + psi.....I have blown the cylinders out of Ruger 45s, so be very careful with this information....but what I have found ‘safe loads’ is a little heavier than what I read most times....20/2400/260 Keith will do 1225 fps...at a cost of 27,000 psi. Now I go to 22 grains when I’m going to go heavy game hunting with my Rugers in this caliber. But that generates over 34,000 psi....the velocity is well over 1370 fps...it is a true magnum load that gives near 1100 ft.lbs. of energy.....I would use the 20/2400/260k in a Colt New Frontier sparingly...but not the 22/2400/260K that’s pushing it.
I use these heavy loads in my Rugers, but I also carefully check the bolt cuts in the cylinders often for expansion of the cylinder wall into the cut, or for cracks or battering around the cuts...if I see any of this I back off....IMR800X is a strange powder, in the Rugers in 45 Colt cases it’s a fairly slow burner...14 grains gives around 1370 fps and the pressure is still acceptable at 26,500 psi. Which is excellent in my guns...with very acceptable accuracy. Last five shot group I fired at 50 yards with this load went into 3.2 inches...that was with a scoped Ruger off a Paco/Taffin rest, (A rolled up carpet off the hood of the pickup).
13.5 grains of this IMR800X, under a 300 grain Keith RCBS bullet gives 1270 fps and 28,000 plus psi. HS7 can not get to that velocity with 300 grain bullets without going way into unacceptable pressure levels....this is where burning rate tables for gun powder are misleading....HS7 and IMR800x are listed as if they are in the same class...maybe in some chamberings but not this one...always start low and work up with any of these powders...............
24/4227/260K will get around 1250 fps...25 grains will break 1300 fps but that’s where I stop with this powder....again these are powerful loads. With WW 296 or H110 and the 250 jacketed bullets 24 to 25 grains will give around 1250 fps and acceptable pressure...with the 260 grain Keith the velocity will be higher with the same loads.
The old 45 Colt round is now over 130 years old...with modern guns and powders it is like it was invented yesterday...with today’s components even the older guns can be carefully loaded to take large game to the elk class....45s have always fascinated me no matter what round I’m working with or playing with at the moment....and the 45 Colt round has not only power but class.
45 long Colt PlusP loads and pressures...
for strong handguns only...for information only...
New Colt SA&clones
Ruger SA
POWDER/GRS BULLET WGT
VELOCITY
7&1/2 BBL
APPROX-
PRESSURE
FT.LBS/MUZZLE
TKO....
“
AA#5/15G/200GR
SWC CAST
1300 FPS
20,500 CUP
M.E. 750 LBS
TKO 16.8
“
AA#7/18.5/200GR
SWC CAST
1330 FPS
20,000 CUP
M.E. S/A
TKO S/A
“
AA#5/16 GR/230
ACP RN CAST
1240 FPS
21,000 CUP
M.E. 785 LBS
TKO 18.4
“
AA#7/14 GR
230 ACP/CAST RN
1255 fps
21,400 cup
M.E. 804 LBS
TKO 18.6
“
(Hec)A2400/17GR 230 CAST/ACP/RN
1300 FPS
20,000 CUP
M.E. 863 lbs
TKO 19.3
Ruger and stronger
(HERC)2400/18.5
255 K-CAST SWC
1270 FPS
25,100 CUP
M.E. 913 LBS
TKO 21
Ruger and Stronger
(Herc)2400/20.5
255 K-CAST SWC
1340 FPS
29,800 CUP
M.E. 1016 LBS
NOTE FOR THE 44 MAG TO
reach this takes pressure 40,000 CUP....TKO 23
Ruger and stronger
WW296/25GR
255 K-CAST
1340 FPS
24,100 CUP
M.E. 1016 LBS
TKO 23
NEW COLT&CLONES
I hunted with this
WW296/23GR
255 K-CAST
Keith Blt@1200fps
1224 FPS
for 10 plus years
20,700 CUP
and game to 400lbs plus
M.E. 850 LBS
TKO 20
*note I found this to be
best load in COLT SAs
NEW COLT&CLONES
WW296/20GRS
300 GR CAST
980 FPS
21.000CUP
M.E. 640 LBS
TKO 19
SECTION FIVE CHAPTERS Pressure Data MegaMags 454 454 A Mega Magnum
Last edited by CowboyTutt on Fri Nov 18, 2022 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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Griff
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Okay, I said I learned all that here, but... while in the vernacular it might be referred to as the "long Colt", that's still not the same as the official nomenclature. IMO, and please feel free to flame away, it shows a certain disrespect to the history of the cartridge to call it by some name some feller lost in the annals of history walked into a store and said something along the lines of: "... I need a box of that 45 Colt, the long one..." ergo spawning a debate for the century or better! As a long time "parts" guy, nomenclature is important, not nearly as much as part numbers, but... I digress. Does anyone here dispute that the name of the cartridge is ".45 Colt"?
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Mark of "Mark and Sam After Work" are at it again with the 45 Colt at 1000 yards. That Henry rifle is pretty ugly however IMHO and it broke the mag tube as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJnVPfguzSU
Don't tell Griff, but Mark also referred to it in the opening as the "Long Colt" Dang backwards Aussies! 
-Tutt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJnVPfguzSU
Don't tell Griff, but Mark also referred to it in the opening as the "Long Colt"
Dang backwards Aussies! -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
With you on the Henry, Tutt. I appreciate what the outfit is trying to do. But all the ones I have handled have been clunky, or the garish fake brass over zinc alloy is offputting. Pretty amazing shooting by our Aussie friends though!
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Bill, yeah brother, I was disappointed in the performance and looks of the Henry. Their customer service is first class, and I'm sure they would fix it gratis, but shipping from Australia? Not sure who would pay for that.
Regarding the nomenclature of the 45 Colt or "Long Colt", I sort of gave up on this years ago. As long as I'm understood, it doesn't matter. If it only takes a moment when I say "45 Colt" and they say "Long Colt or ACP", only a very brief moment in time, problem solved.
That being said, "45 Long Colt" does have a sort of a more romantic ring to it to me, as it specifies something very old and proven.
Now Griff is even more traditional than I am, so I understand him. Really it doesn't matter much as long as I'm understood.
I was just amazed to see ammo companies labeling their cartridges "45 Long Colt" in the You Tube videos. Maybe we should keep that name after all as the 45 ACP guys don't know what to appropriately call their cartridge.
-Tutt
Regarding the nomenclature of the 45 Colt or "Long Colt", I sort of gave up on this years ago. As long as I'm understood, it doesn't matter. If it only takes a moment when I say "45 Colt" and they say "Long Colt or ACP", only a very brief moment in time, problem solved.
That being said, "45 Long Colt" does have a sort of a more romantic ring to it to me, as it specifies something very old and proven.
Now Griff is even more traditional than I am, so I understand him. Really it doesn't matter much as long as I'm understood.
I was just amazed to see ammo companies labeling their cartridges "45 Long Colt" in the You Tube videos. Maybe we should keep that name after all as the 45 ACP guys don't know what to appropriately call their cartridge.
-Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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Griff
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
I'm actually not too surprised the mag tube suffered a failure. According to my Hodgdon reloading manual, in a 20" barrel, a 300 grain 44 Mag generates 38,800 PSI @ 1473 fps, and these folks stated their rounds were traveling @ 1550 fps. I'm no ballistician, but I suspect that had to be in excess of 40,000 psi. It really shouldn't be confusing as to what to call a round of 45ACP... it's right there on head of almost every cartridge I've ever had for that cartridge... 45 Auto. And what some fly-by-night outfit prints on their boxes is immaterial... when Winchester, Remington, or Federal start calling it a "45 Long Colt", I'll absolutely know that our world has gone tits up with the PC bullspit. (PC=public cowardice).CowboyTutt wrote: ↑Sat Nov 19, 2022 8:56 pm Bill, yeah brother, I was disappointed in the performance and looks of the Henry. Their customer service is first class, and I'm sure they would fix it gratis, but shipping from Australia? Not sure who would pay for that.
Regarding the nomenclature of the 45 Colt or "Long Colt", I sort of gave up on this years ago. As long as I'm understood, it doesn't matter. If it only takes a moment when I say "45 Colt" and they say "Long Colt or ACP", only a very brief moment in time, problem solved.
That being said, "45 Long Colt" does have a sort of a more romantic ring to it to me, as it specifies something very old and proven.
Now Griff is even more traditional than I am, so I understand him. Really it doesn't matter much as long as I'm understood.
I was just amazed to see ammo companies labeling their cartridges "45 Long Colt" in the You Tube videos. Maybe we should keep that name after all as the 45 ACP guys don't know what to appropriately call their cartridge.
-Tutt
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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Sixgun
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Geeze...why all of the controversy on what it's called......it's unofficial to call the 45 Colt "Long" but people back in the day did refer it to the "Long" as there were other cartridges and guns that could be mistaken for it such as the guys who had Schofields or 1911's.
Back in the day, people were expected to know what their gun ate for food. Today, people need to look up on the internet what their gun eats as they are either too lazy to think with common sense or they are plain stupid.....probably both.
One day, in the not too distant future people will argue over what that old fashioned fuel for internal combustion engines was called. Most will say "gas" when in fact it's "gasoline".
People will always argue over pressure building up in the intestines of mammals as to whether it's "gas", "flatulence", or my favorite, a good old fashioned f.art....----006
Back in the day, people were expected to know what their gun ate for food. Today, people need to look up on the internet what their gun eats as they are either too lazy to think with common sense or they are plain stupid.....probably both.
One day, in the not too distant future people will argue over what that old fashioned fuel for internal combustion engines was called. Most will say "gas" when in fact it's "gasoline".
People will always argue over pressure building up in the intestines of mammals as to whether it's "gas", "flatulence", or my favorite, a good old fashioned f.art....----006
1st. Gen. Colt SAA’s, 1878 D.A.45 and a 38-55 Marlin TD
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Funny, but when I hear or say just .45, in my book the reference is to a 1911. But Colt .45, or .45 Colt is the SAA version of 1872 -- or it is the TV series from the late 1950s.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlD_GYIoqII&t=23s
I was not aware of this Warner Brothers film until I looked up the TV series.
https://mysteryfile.com/blog/?p=31101
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlD_GYIoqII&t=23s
I was not aware of this Warner Brothers film until I looked up the TV series.
https://mysteryfile.com/blog/?p=31101
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Bullard4075
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Fascinating, simply fascinating thread. Awaiting the 44 Short (44 Special), 44 Long (44 Mag) thread. 
. Seriously though I'm amazed at the depth and breadth of knowledge of the gentlemen here.
. Seriously though I'm amazed at the depth and breadth of knowledge of the gentlemen here."Any man who covers his face and packs a gun is a legitimate target for any decent citizen"
Jeff Cooper
Jeff Cooper
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Just call the 45 ACP the Short Colt. It truly is a Colt round, and it is shorter. Problem solved.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
No Bueno my friend! Were talking about the 45 "Long" Colt, not the 44 Mag.I'm actually not too surprised the mag tube suffered a failure. According to my Hodgdon reloading manual, in a 20" barrel, a 300 grain 44 Mag generates 38,800 PSI @ 1473 fps, and these folks stated their rounds were traveling @ 1550 fps. I'm no ballistician, but I suspect that had to be in excess of 40,000 psi.
Here's what I got with Quick Load in a 20 inch barrel at 32 K PSI:
You can attain this velocity that Mark of "Mark and Sam" on YouTube mentioned in a 45 Colt levergun in a 20 inch barrel without excessive pressure, regardless of its nomenclature unless your using a much faster burning powder. I think this reflects poorly on the Henry rifle and probably the reason that Rossi added the threaded mag tube fixtures they did to their 454 Casull rifles so they would hold together.
Not sure how the 44 Mag cartridge got introduced into this thread.
That being said, I love you a lot, and I'll buy you some custom 45 Long Colt cuff links some day....
-Tutt
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"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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Griff
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
I was using the 44 as a comparison. If it takes 38,000psi to generate 1473 fps in the 44, why wouldn't it be reasonable to assume the 45 would take a comparable number? I know my 45 Colt "Ruger only" loads are nearly there in the 20" Rossi. I'll have to run some across the chronograph when I go to the range tomorrow. I don't have a way to measure pressure. But they haven't exhibited signs of excessive pressure in the past. Maybe it's just my latent disdain of HRA & the big boy that makes expect that type of failure.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
I was really surprised and disappointed that the Henry failed as well! My 360 grain Keith bullets from Frank of Mt. Baldy did around 13-1350 fps out of a 20" Rossi in 45 Colt if a remember right. Old Savage might remember more than me. They were a starting Ruger load straight out of the Hodgdon manual so not high pressure.
If you do manage to chronograph some rounds, please do report back! Buy you a cyber beer!
-Tutt
If you do manage to chronograph some rounds, please do report back! Buy you a cyber beer!
-Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
I looked it up and the 44 Mag case has 37.9 grains of water capacity and the 45 Colt has 41.6 grains of H20 case capacity. So 3.7 grains difference. -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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Griff
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Yes, ergo, with the same powder charge pressure will be less in the .45 Colt, (stipulating that seating depth is the same), and less velocity. So, I'm back from the range and have results. I loaded 14 rounds of 45 Colt with a 250 grain JHP by Speer in new Starline cases with Winchester LP primers and 16.0 grains of Blue Dot. T'was the only powder in my cabinet that my Sierra manual showed a 1500 fps load for the 45 Colt in the rifle section. It actually lists 16.4 grains to reach 1500, the 16 grains is listed at 1450fps. The Sierra manual lists a 240 JHP and a 300 JSP for the 45 Colt in a rifle, so I adjusted my load for the slightly heavier bullet. Their test rifle being a Winchester 94AE with a 16" bbl. I was shooting a Rossi Short Rifle with a 20" heavy octagon bbl. The 16 grain load behind the 250 pill didn't feel all that bad, actually seemed like less felt recoil than my 1969 44Mag Winchester 94 carbine with its 20" bbl. In the Sierra manual, looking up 45 Colt under the Ruger, Dan Wesson, Freedom Arms & Contenders, they also state for use in the Colt Anaconda, lists loads up to 16.9 grains of Blue Dot, which in a 7-½ bbl they show as achieving 1250 fps. So, my 16 grain load is not quite max. I will have to go back to the range with a few loaded to step up to that 16.9 max and see what it does from my 20".CowboyTutt wrote: ↑Mon Nov 21, 2022 7:40 pmI looked it up and the 44 Mag case has 37.9 grains of water capacity and the 45 Colt has 41.6 grains of H20 case capacity. So 3.7 grains difference. -Tutt
I was a bit disappointed with my shooting, the target, and both sights were a blur... must be time for a new prescription! I'm still waiting for my phone to email my pictures to my laptop so I can share them... In the meantime, the results for 9 rounds were: Ave - 1532, Hi - 1574, Low - 1496, ES 78, SD - 25.27, AD - 24. (Round #1 didn't register on the chronograph). Frankly, none of the fired brass exhibited any signs of even moderate pressure. Primers are sort of flattened, but still exhibit rounded edges and a full roundness to the primer strike. There is a bit of soot down the sides of the majority of cases, indicating the case mouth didn't completely seal the chamber. There is a very slight bulge to the walls of the case where the usual max chamber meets fully sized case.
I shot the 1st 3 shots low into the 4 & 5 rings (from the horizontal centerline). at 6 o'clock to 7. I then adjust the rear sight up 2 notches and shot #4 was @ 9 o'clock in the 1 ring (counting rings from the vertical centerline. Shots then strung along that vertical line, left of center.
I then got the Miroku 1885 in .32-40 out of the case and fired about 30 rounds thru it. They were all loaded with a 170 grain RFN from Missouri Bullet Company, 10 rounds with 5744 and 20 rounds with 3F APP. Better than last time, but a little fast. The smokeless worked perfectly, the 5744 averaged 1449 fps with a AD of 17, the BP was "okay", but of the 30 rounds only 17 measured on the chronograph. And two of those fell around 800 fps lover than the average. And it wasn't a measurement error, I could definitely tell the difference in both sound and recoil. They were very soft. I can't figure out why, as all rounds were volume measured @ 40 grains. Except for those low speed rounds, the APP rounds averaged 1663 fps, with an AD of 41.4.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Very nice report Griff, thanks! I have Starline brass on the way, but curiously even my former Hornady, RP and Federal brass tended to those smoky sides you mentioned. We will see what this fresh batch does. Hope you had a great Thanksgiving! -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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Old Savage
- Posting leader...
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Tutt, that memory is correct. I think they also did about 1100 out of your 5 1/2” Ruger.
I still have one of the boxes of that load that you gave me. You may certainly have them back with the cases form the box I already shot.
I still have one of the boxes of that load that you gave me. You may certainly have them back with the cases form the box I already shot.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...
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CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Old Savage, thank you, you are such a good friend. I was up to see Jim a couple of Saturdays ago to work on the 22 Mag project and create the custom 22 Mag. Lee FCD and mount some scopes on two rifles. But I only stayed until about 1pm so I could not see you. Hopefully in the future I can see you both, or just you.
I remember those 360 Keith bullets doing 1150 fps out of the Bisley 5 1/2 inch at FoBD. I remember because in theory it was what would seem the worst velocity being just slightly supersonic, then going transonic and sub-sonic. Was a handful but you shot them with aplomb back in the day at Angeles Shooting Range.
I think you will like the 22 Mag project and might enjoy out-shooting me with my own rifle some day soon!
I would like a sample of those bullets back to send for mould making and recasting as I have not seen the like since. Not saying there might not be some out there, but have not stumbled across them yet. Jim T. might like to try some as slower velocities, I could send him some of the originals to try. So maybe it would be best if I took the box back. We can discuss it when I see you.
Glad to be down here when its warm, we apparently have a great local gunshop nearby, just found out tonight.
Anyhow, see you soon I hope.
-Tutt
I remember those 360 Keith bullets doing 1150 fps out of the Bisley 5 1/2 inch at FoBD. I remember because in theory it was what would seem the worst velocity being just slightly supersonic, then going transonic and sub-sonic. Was a handful but you shot them with aplomb back in the day at Angeles Shooting Range.
I think you will like the 22 Mag project and might enjoy out-shooting me with my own rifle some day soon!
I would like a sample of those bullets back to send for mould making and recasting as I have not seen the like since. Not saying there might not be some out there, but have not stumbled across them yet. Jim T. might like to try some as slower velocities, I could send him some of the originals to try. So maybe it would be best if I took the box back. We can discuss it when I see you.
Glad to be down here when its warm, we apparently have a great local gunshop nearby, just found out tonight.
Anyhow, see you soon I hope.
-Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-
CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
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- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
- Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Griff, I ran the numbers in Quick Load with a Speer 250 grain HP Gold Dot, bullet number 4484, 16 grains of Blue Dot out of a 20 inch barrel. Not sure the bullet is exactly the same thing but closest I could come in the pre-loaded data base. Predicted velocity was 1514 fps so your right in there. Pressure was only a very modest 21886 psi predicted. 16.9 grains predicts 1582 fps at 24841 psi. Ruger only loads in 45 Colt tend to be around 30K psi so your well in the safe zone if your rifle can handle a Ruger load. I'll PM you my contact information again, so you can write or call and I'll do what I can. -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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Griff
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Thank you Tutt. Yes, the Rossi '92 seems to easily absorb this level of power. It's heavy octagon bbl and full "rifle" furniture even with it's curved buttplate weighs enough to absorb quiite a bit of recoil. I bought this rifle for my son in 2004 for him to shoot Wild Bunch with and slicked it up much the same as I did two earlier Rossis in .38/.357 that were his and my wife's cowboy action rifles in '87 & '88. This one I left a little tighter with the additional idea of using it on hogs here in Texas.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
-
CowboyTutt
- Advanced Levergunner
- Posts: 3712
- Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:27 pm
- Location: Mission Viejo, CA
Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Family comes first and beautiful rifles for sure! Lots more power available there if you need it, even with Blue Dot. Something slower burning with a magnum primer would take you to the finish line with the most velocity and quite possibly very good SD's and more importantly, ES's in my book. I appreciate the thought you reported a 9 shot string by the way. Not everyone does that, but it was not lost on me. I almost always do about the same in my testing. I think a matching set of 45 "Long" Colt cufflinks are in order for you and I! You can tell your friends they belong to a friend of yours and were "on loan" as a joke.
Regards ol' friend.
-Tutt or Andy
Regards ol' friend.
-Tutt or Andy
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)
"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
-
Griff
- Posting leader...
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- Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
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Re: Mcpherson on Leverguns
Can I take a pass? I long ago quit wearing shirts with french cuffs!CowboyTutt wrote: ↑Sat Nov 26, 2022 12:43 amI think a matching set of 45 "Long" Colt cufflinks are in order for you and I! You can tell your friends they belong to a friend of yours and were "on loan" as a joke.
Regards ol' friend.
-Tutt or Andy
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!