On The Dark Side Of Things

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JimT
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On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon .44
IMG_4091.JPG
It's a big ole thing. Makes a SAA look like a pocket pistol!
IMG_4116.JPG
Shooting from a rest.
dragoon1.JPG
.457" ball over 40 gr. FFFg Black
IMG_4187.JPG
.457" ball over chamber full of Pyrodex P
IMG_4194.JPG
Heel bullet
IMG_4191.JPG
Heel bullet over 40 gr. FFFg Black
IMG_4192.JPG
Heel bullet over 45 gr. FFFg Black
IMG_4193.JPG
dragoon4.JPG
dragoon6.JPG
Shooting cap and ball revolvers at the range, you don't shoot as many rounds as with cartridge guns but it definitely is different!
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Jim, that 3rd Model Dragoon wants to shoot for you, doesn't it? That heel bullet over 45 grains of FFFg is getting close to what I assume is your point of aim, and that's holy grail country with any of the old Colts that usually shoot a foot high. (Aim at his belt buckle and you'll get a hit.)
How do you like to clean your BP revolvers?
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 6:54 pm How do you like to clean your BP revolvers?
I don't like to clean them!'
:lol:

Depends how dirty they are ... how much I have shot them. Today I did the boiling water thing .. stripped the gun first ... oiled it up afterwards. During that I ran a brass brush through the barrel and used a patch on a rod to wipe the chambers clean. Oiled the nipple threads. I wanted to work on the trigger so it wasn't a big deal. Sometimes I use Windex and spray 'em down and then wipe and oil them. It's best to look carefully inside them.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Is that the Windex with vinegar that Mike Venturino likes?
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Ysabel Kid »

I love this post! :D

Jim, is that heel-based bullet a Lee Precision bullet? Have you tried the Eras-Gone Walker/Dragoon bullet?

Great shooting!!! :D
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:21 pm Is that the Windex with vinegar that Mike Venturino likes?
I haven't tried that yet. I just grabbed a bottle out of the kitchen and ran off to the shop with it real fast before the women-folk saw where it went.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

Ysabel Kid wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:36 pm I love this post! :D

Jim, is that heel-based bullet a Lee Precision bullet? Have you tried the Eras-Gone Walker/Dragoon bullet?

Great shooting!!! :D
No. The heel bullet was the creation of my late Dad. The .457" round ball mold was his. It's a 2-cavity mold. On one cavity he just reamed out the mold so that it made a heel bullet. I tried it in the Dragoon cylinder and it's a perfect fit.

I have seen Eras-Gone stuff and have a friend who is using the Walker bullet. Looks good.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Sixgun »

I'm more impressed with the photography than you shooting....but that ain't bad either Jimbo! ---006
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

Sixgun wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:14 pm I'm more impressed with the photography than you shooting....but that ain't bad either Jimbo! ---006
Well I thank you, my friend. I wasn't too impressed by my shooting, but I see the gun has potential. I worked on the trigger this afternoon and next will be the sights. That little V notch ain't cutting it for these old eyes. I may put a new wider front sight and square up the back sight ... or mount one on the barrel ...
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Ysabel Kid »

JimT wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:10 pm
Ysabel Kid wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 7:36 pm I love this post! :D

Jim, is that heel-based bullet a Lee Precision bullet? Have you tried the Eras-Gone Walker/Dragoon bullet?

Great shooting!!! :D
No. The heel bullet was the creation of my late Dad. The .457" round ball mold was his. It's a 2-cavity mold. On one cavity he just reamed out the mold so that it made a heel bullet. I tried it in the Dragoon cylinder and it's a perfect fit.

I have seen Eras-Gone stuff and have a friend who is using the Walker bullet. Looks good.
Very cool! 8)

I have a bunch of the period correct molds Mark Hubbs (Eras Gone By) has had made by Lee Precision. I really, really like them. I made a bunch of paper cartridges for the dragoons, but have not had a chance to try them out yet. I may need to relieve the loading area to use them (like the originals), or load the cylinder off gun. Your post is inspiring! :D

BTW, there are reproductions of the Third Model dragoon with a better rear sight mounted on the barrel. I have one. A vast improvement, but the sights are still challenging!
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

Ysabel Kid wrote: Wed Nov 09, 2022 8:43 pm BTW, there are reproductions of the Third Model dragoon with a better rear sight mounted on the barrel. I have one. A vast improvement, but the sights are still challenging!
I have seen those. Thought about mounting one on this gun but not sure I want to do that. I will work on the hammer notch sight first. And yes .. at my age all iron sights seem to be challenging. :roll:
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Ray »

m.A.g.a. !
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I wouldn't do it but ...

Post by JimT »

1.JPG
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Have mercy! :o
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Ray »

uncle hovey's "super" walker.....
download (1).jpeg
and r.o.a.
download (2).jpeg
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Griff »

The Walker's and Dragoons are neat, but I much prefer Colt's Belt Model of 1851!
IMG_0231.JPG
And for a little shooting flavor:
https://youtu.be/5N1KV-aoemc
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

I've had the '51 and they are a neat handling gun. I have also had the Remington 1858 .44 and while it was a good gun, the grip always felt strange. I used it for hunting and it was accurate and powerful. My personal preference for a belt gun is the 1861 Navy. I believe I would cut the barrel to 4 1/2" or 5" any more ... but that's just a personal thing.
1861 Navy.JPG
EDIT .. my Remington 1858
Remington-Javelina.JPG
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Ray »

Ah ! You geezers with your obsolete roscoes that load from the front ! Did someone say '51/'61 navies ?

I've been shoosting these in mine.....

https://oldwestbulletmoulds.com/shop/ol ... el-bullets

Not intended purpose but works perfectly.....

As for the historically incorrect .44 navy, it surely balances and points well.....almost perfect if it weren't for the pietta flare to the grip.
IMG_20221111_201941760~2.jpg
The beals at the top and the leech/rigdon at seven o'clock didn't want to be left out.....

Sure would like one of these.....

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1025216289?pid=239169
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Ray »

m.A.g.a. !
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Twodot »

if you like fluted cylinders:
1862 Colt Police.jpg
..
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shorter 1862 Police

Post by JimT »

IMG_2603.JPG
colt1862Police-4.jpg
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Ray Newman »

Back about 40 years ago, I knew a shooter who had a 3rd Model Dragoon with a shoulder stock and barrel leaf sight. Can not recall the manufacturer. For me, it was interesting experience shooting a revolver with a shoulder stock. If I recall correctly, the revolver shined when loaded with a full house charge of FFFg and a bullet. With round balls, it was a "so-so" shooter. A few times I thought about purchasing one, but I was more than satisfied with my Ruger Old Army.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Shasta »

I happen to have one of those 3rd models with a shoulder stock and folding barrel sight:

Image

Image


It also has another unique feature, a 16" barrel!

Image

It was made in Italy by Armi San Marco.

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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

Shasta wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:50 pm I happen to have one of those 3rd models with a shoulder stock and folding barrel sight:
It also has another unique feature, a 16" barrel!
It was made in Italy by Armi San Marco.
Shasta
Have you chronographed that long barrel?
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Shasta »

I have had this long barreled revolver for over two years and I haven't even fired it yet. :oops:

Too many toys I guess.

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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

Shasta wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:47 pm I have had this long barreled revolver for over two years and I haven't even fired it yet. :oops:

Too many toys I guess.

Shasta
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Well that surely is some "experimental archaeology" waiting to happen if you ever get around to it, Shasta! Remember, you MUST report your results here for scientific review. 8)
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by junkbug »

I have been on the lookout for an Armi-San Marco Third Model Dragoon with a leaf rear sight for a while. They are not often seen, and expensive when found. I would be interested in making up one for myself. Have to find a suitable rear sight to do so.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Shasta »

JimT wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:53 pm
Shasta wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 3:50 pm I happen to have one of those 3rd models with a shoulder stock and folding barrel sight:
It also has another unique feature, a 16" barrel!
It was made in Italy by Armi San Marco.
Shasta
Have you chronographed that long barrel?

Dredging up an old thread here because I finally got around to shooting and chronographing my 16" barreled 3rd Model Dragoon revolver. I first loaded each chamber with a 30 gr. Pyrodex pellet, a felt wad, a 138 gr. .451" round ball, and topped it with a bit of grease. At 25 yards it shot a group just under 2" at an average velocity of 1,051 fps.
I then tried 35 gr. of Goex FFFg expecting higher velocity, but surprisingly it was nearly the same at 1,050 fps and group size was also nearly identical.

For comparison, I shot the same loads through my 7 1/2" Ruger Old Army using a 144 gr. .457" ball. The Pyrodex load ran 900 fps on the nose, while the Goex FFFg went 870. I was very surprised that the 5 gr. lighter Pyrodex load actually was a little faster that the FFFg. Both loads grouped around 3".

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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

THANKS!!
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Griff »

Thanks Shasta.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

John Taffin told me that Hodgdon's Triple Seven FFFg gave him the highest velocities of all the powders he tried. It gave good accuracy also. I have a pound of it and am gonna try it as soon as I am able.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by 1894cfan »

Jim, Othias over at C&Rsenal on youtube swears by Ballistol for cleaning all kinds of stuff, especially black powder firearms. Nontoxic and can be used on wood too. Softens BP fouling and prevents rust from forming. BTW, Ballistol is one of the sponsors of C&Rsenal. HTH
Last edited by 1894cfan on Thu May 04, 2023 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

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1894cfan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 3:57 pm Jim, Othias over at C&Rsenal on youtube swears by Ballistol for cleaning all kinds of stuff, especially black powder firearms. Nontoxic and can be used on wood too. Softens BP fowling and prevents rust from forming. BTW, Ballistol is one of the sponsors of C&Rsenal. HTH
Sounds like it's worth looking at. Thanks.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Griff »

JimT wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 4:52 pm
1894cfan wrote: Thu May 04, 2023 3:57 pmJim, Othias over at C&Rsenal on youtube swears by Ballistol for cleaning all kinds of stuff, especially black powder firearms. Nontoxic and can be used on wood too. Softens BP fowling and prevents rust from forming. BTW, Ballistol is one of the sponsors of C&Rsenal. HTH
Sounds like it's worth looking at. Thanks.
I'm going to say that vast majority of BP shooters in CAS recommend it. Lots of them use in their formulation of "moose milk".
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Ray »

1:7 to 1:10 ballistol/water in a trigger pump spray bottle is all you need to care for blackpowder arms. The water both washes away and renders the fouling noncorrosive then readily evaporates leaving just the right amount of metal protection. If you start out with as weak a solution as 1:10 (or even less), the mix always gets richer with use and not weaker due to the fats and waxes rising to the top of your spray bottle.....shake frequently ! Be generous and spray away. Moving air from a fan or even a hair dryer speeds-up the water evaporation.

The ballistol in the aeresol spray can is great for metal preservation. It comes out of the can quite foamy and that foam on a spent toothbrush gets down in the crooks and crevices. A small paint or shaving brush dedicated for gun use with a spray from the ballistol can gives complete coverage and I have had no wood finish damage as yet.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by J Miller »

Jim,

What does a .457" round ball weigh?


Many summers ago I bought a mil-surp rifle. The instruction book said to use window cleaner with ammonia to clean the bore if using corrosive primed ammo.
Well, it worked, and I had no bad effects from rust at all.
So being lazy and hating using hot soapy water to clean black powder fouling I bought a bottle of Windex with ammonia and cleaned my Ruger and Uberti with it after shooting black powder. It worked perfectly. No rust anywhere.

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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by JimT »

J Miller wrote: Fri May 05, 2023 8:34 am Jim,

What does a .457" round ball weigh?


Many summers ago I bought a mil-surp rifle. The instruction book said to use window cleaner with ammonia to clean the bore if using corrosive primed ammo.
Well, it worked, and I had no bad effects from rust at all.
So being lazy and hating using hot soapy water to clean black powder fouling I bought a bottle of Windex with ammonia and cleaned my Ruger and Uberti with it after shooting black powder. It worked perfectly. No rust anywhere.

Joe
.457 ball weighs somewheres around 145 gr. depending upon the alloy.

I have used Windex years ago and have been using it since a re-started shooting cap n ball revolvers. It works well.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by J Miller »

Jim,

Thanks.

Joe
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I've been using Ballistol for years. I think it smells vaguely like Australian black licorice. I'm a big fan.
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Re: On The Dark Side Of Things

Post by Grizz »

I use ballistol for a long time, but the idea of diluting it never occurred to me. I've been using it with a toothpick applying a drop at a time in the internals, i need to try Ray's formula.

I use windex as a cleaning agent too. it wipes up oil smudges and dirt and carbon as well as the road grime on car glass, and bumpers, etc.

good stuff
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