Morning @ the Range

[Griff]

Went to the Gun Club this morning and did a little shooting with the new-to-me Winchester Highwall in .32-40. This has been a dream rifle to me for a number of years. I got it from a member here, who'd shot it very little and never with black powder, my intended fodder! So, I have on hand 51 pieces of R-P brass and 9 20 round boxes of Winchester John Wayne Commemorative .32-40 ammo. So after getting the rifle last week, I ordered 100 Missouri Bullet lead FN in 170 grain they market for a levergun. But, with little else available, beggars can't be choosers! I loaded 26 rounds with APP 3F behind this lead bullet and WLR primers. A set of RCBS new dies, the "cowboy" 3-die set as I'd prefer to have the expander die and not strip lead off the projectile.

After loading up the p/u with rifle rest, chronograph, ammo, cleaning kit, and tool kit then unloading all the same at the range, I prepared to shoot the rifle for the first time. Mounting a Burris 1-4 power scope and getting it "close" I fired the 1st 16 rounds without a single projectile hitting my target. Just trying to get the velocities recorded All 10 as it turns out on the backer paper just off the target, low, and left. Moving the knobs nearly 32 clicks up and 12 clicks right, my next 13 shots were nestled around 9 o'clock round the 6 & 7 rings. Look at the velocities I got with the precisely measured powder drop (tongue firmly in cheek), a RCBS powder drop I've had since the early 1970s. (One of my earliest reloading purchases). And you'll see they couldn't have been very precise at all. The 3 rounds at the top left in the second photo, I don't even have a guess as to why I got those readings. And round #4 didn't go off, had to have been a bad primer. Rounds 5 & 6 didn't record at all. How long that bad primer been sitting exposed in my Lee hand primer, is best left to one's imagination... I can't remember the last rifle ammo I loaded... maybe some 30-06 for the garand a year or so ago. All in all, since the goal was to just see if the bullets loaded in the gun ok, It was a successful day, although after every 10 rounds I had to swab the barrel out for the rounds to chamber with just thumb pressure.

After resetting the chronograph, I started recording each shot with the first group of ten. It was during this 1st group that I made my 1st scope adjustment.

There are 5 rounds clustered is a group 1.15" @ 10 o'clock that were the 1st 5 rounds fired of the John Wayne Commemorative ammo. That group surprised me so much that moved the scope 15 more clicks to the right and 4 clicks down and fired that group at 11:30 in the 8-9 ring, which I measure @ .930". Given the consistency of that ammo, I'm both surprised and pleased.

I have to thank Sixgun for the brass, as he sent what I have a few years back after I made mention that one of my goals was to get a .32-40 single shot and shoot it! I'm so enamored with this sleek falling block that I can see a LOT shooting in its' future! Now I just have to figure out how to get more consistency out of my APP loads. The low end of the scale was what I anticipated, the high velocities were a bit of a surprise, as these were less than 40 grains by volume, close to 30-35. They were a bit more filing of the case, at least up the base of the bullet, and some might have been compressed a little. The next trip will be with just the tang sight, a new Lyman front globe sight and more carefully crafted BP rounds.

.32-40 1st group.jpg

Velocities.jpg

[Nath]

How close was the chrono?
Get some 4f in there

[Griff]

How close was the chrono?
Get some 4f in there

10-12 feet.

[gamekeeper]

Griff, that sounds like a constructive morning at the range, I'm already looking forward to the next range report....

[CowboyTutt]

Griff, I have no knowledge on this subject but wish you well with your BP loads! It did seem like a really nice rifle and I'm glad you bought it. I'm a "smokeless" guy. Please keep us posted! -Tutt

[Griff]

Griff, I have no knowledge on this subject but wish you well with your BP loads! It did seem like a really nice rifle and I'm glad you bought it. I'm a "smokeless" guy. Please keep us posted! -Tutt

Thank you Tutt. It is a beautiful rifle and seems to shoot well. Just as with smokeless, consistently matching each charge makes for consistent ammo. One of the foibles with this old powder measure is that getting that exact charge each and every time is usually a matter of consistent technique. And I didn't use any consistency in my powder drops on Wednesday. I simply knocked 'em out. Usually I'll "knock" the drum once or twice after each drop to ensure every kernel is dropped out of the measure and into the case. I didn't do that, just ran the drum up and down once. A rushed job is usually a botched job... and this was a rushed job! I still gleaned some very useable info out of it!

[Oldncrusty]

Good reporting. Still dreaming of a highwall.

[earlmck]

That's an amazing amount of velocity variation for black powder -- I didn't know black would even do that. You're going to have some interesting times figuring this one out. But sounds like the gun is worth it.

[Nath]

How close was the chrono?
Get some 4f in there

10-12 feet.

I was just wondering if the chrono was picking up on ejecta other than the bullet and messing the figures up now and then.

[Griff]

How close was the chrono?
Get some 4f in there

10-12 feet.

I was just wondering if the chrono was picking up on ejecta other than the bullet and messing the figures up now and then.

My thoughts were that somehow prior data was still in the memory of the chronograph, as when I tapped for review it gave some 4 or 5 shots that were far in excess of what I had written down for the 3 shots that I recorded. And it could be that it was recording some of the ejecta... We'll see what happens when I next set up to gather some additional data with this load & rifle.

[Drawdown]

Good report and data on a great rifle!

[ollogger]

Sounds like some head banging may be in store for you, could be the chrony was acting up like you said
albeit i've had my share of head bangers with certain guns and loads


Brad

[CowboyTutt]

Griff, I think it would be nice if you could include some photo's of the rifle on this thread too, and my life kind of sucks right now as I'm just sorting and packing through 20 years of stuff to move October 25th and the news from Ukraine. Some gun photo's would make my day if you could. Or just link to the other thread. -Tutt

[Griff]

Winchester 1885 by Miroku of Japan, 2006 production if I read the Miroku code correctly.

DSCN1423[1].JPG

[earlmck]

I've been thinking about your puzzling blackpowder velocity spreads Griff. I got into my notes and find that I have chrono'd precisely 9 BP loads in my reloading career. Of these 9 different loads, 3 had single digit sd's, 5 were in the teens, and the very worst had an sd of 20. One of these was a 38/55 load and the rest were 45/70 loads. And a couple of years ago I looked over the shoulder of a couple of our best shooters as they were testing loads for a 45/90 and they were also getting those single digit to low teens sd's. That limited experience is why I just assumed that BP loads might cause a fellow a little extra cleaning effort but you could count on real consistent velocities.

One thing in common with all these loads is that they would have had a fair amount of compression. And that would be my first guess for getting your velocity variations down to a more reasonable level is to make sure you use enough powder/wads so you have at least a moderate level of compression with all your BP loads. If compression doesn't do the job then next I'd be thinking too thick a case neck causing inconsistent bullet release.

[Ray]

Assuming APP is american pioneer powder, this is not b.p. but a substitute. Only pyrodex shares the muzzle velocity consistency of real black but we know you don't like it and why.....just a few spritzes of 1/7 to 1/10 water ballistol emulsion will correct that. Never had one freckle with pyrodex using the milky stuff.....

[Griff]

Assuming APP is american pioneer powder, this is not b.p. but a substitute. Only pyrodex shares the muzzle velocity consistency of real black but we know you don't like it and why.....just a few spritzes of 1/7 to 1/10 water ballistol emulsion will correct that. Never had one freckle with pyrodex using the milky stuff.....

yeah, I was using APP because I don't have a mold and what .321 bullets I could get needed a powder that can handle a mineral lube. I didn't expect great results with this first trial, as I could easily see variations in the height of the powder column in the case before I set the bullets. My next loading session will be much more "bench-rest" like... can we say anally retentive?

[CowboyTutt]

That's sort of the funny thing about BP, you can just scoop up powder, throw it in a case that was spit shined, seat some sort of projectile (your mileage may vary) or projectiles over it and pull the trigger. While I don't think anyone will ever confuse me with being an annallly retentive hand-loader, black powder is just not for me and what tiny reloading bench set-up's I have had within a house! -Tutt

[earlmck]

Assuming APP is american pioneer powder, this is not b.p. but a substitute.

yeah, I was using APP because I don't have a mold and what .321 bullets I could get needed a powder that can handle a mineral lube.

Sorry Griff, obviously I didn't know what "APP" powder was -- thought from the "3F" designation you were using black. So ignore any comments I made on the subject.

err... maybe you'd be better off with some real black powder. I don't load a lot of the stuff, just started since I fell in with a bunch of renegades that shoot matches where black (or a substitute, though at this time nobody uses a substitute) is required. I didn't have to add any toys to my reloading bench since my Harrel's powder measure is made out of brass so I feel quite fine using it to dispense the black stuff. Well, I guess I did buy a couple of inexpensive powder compression dies from "Track of the Wolf", so I suppose my die inventory increased by about 1% or so... Hasn't been a big deal other than the cleaning part. I was a fellow who cleaned brass only occasionally and guns maybe once a decade or so. So the cleaning after every use has been disruptive to my life style.

[CowboyTutt]

Assuming APP is american pioneer powder, this is not b.p. but a substitute.
yeah, I was using APP because I don't have a mold and what .321 bullets I could get needed a powder that can handle a mineral lube.
Sorry Griff, obviously I didn't know what "APP" powder was -- thought from the "3F" designation you were using black. So ignore any comments I made on the subject.

err... maybe you'd be better off with some real black powder.

Geeze Griff, I leave you alone a decade plus and what are you doing??? Now your using substitutes and other stuff?? Are you scooping substitutes now???? LOL! I know you can figure it out. Its nice to shoot something you just bought as soon as you can, so I know the eagerness to shoot it!

The 32-40 WCF has a good reputation for accuracy so I I'm sure you can get it there!

-Tutt