speaking of canoes

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Grizz
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Grizz »

Ji in Hawaii wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:56 pm
Grizz wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 11:50 am
Ji in Hawaii wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 8:37 pm
Grizz wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 12:02 am
back to canoe culture and other floaty stuff :>
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my younger son and I did the layout and parts cutting a long time ago while he was still at home. we used materials left over from my fishing business. it's an enlargement from a famous design. I converted the offsets to metric and applied a scale factor to all of them. Do you recognize it?
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I use grommets for rowing. Not as nice as oarlocks when coming along side, But, nothing to hang up in a rolley anchorage. It is effortless to maintain 3mph, which is kayak speed over time. Huge load carrier. Very tiddly when light and I don't let inexperienced boaters take it out without great flotation gear. This skiff will float upside down on the tanks no problem. I've left him anchored out in weather to test this. Eventually there should be a sail rig, a rowing thwart, [fore n aft], and perhaps a double bottom so I don't ever have to bail it. sitting on the bottom next to the aft tank is a fine location to sail from. There is a motor mount so I can move Ariel around, change anchor location, overhaul anchor gear etc. BUT this is not a motor boat and he needs weight to make his motoring antics controllable. I think I might be able to do a back flip, but don't want to.
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I had planned to sail Ariel to Japan until she decided to relocate herself when her mooring failed.
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Ariel_AWOL.png
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Therefore, I prize shallow draft and sailing stability, even though, as Folkboats go, Ariel is a very strong boat built when builders wanted enough material for STOUTness.
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Ji, do you have any more photos of your boat? Would like to see some. Also you asked about powering the cat. I didn't mention that I decided not use the traditional make n break with the slick beaching setup. It's too much trouble, too much drag, and can't carry enough fuel to make motor-sailing feasible unless coastal hopping between gas docks. Even Ariel is a lousy motorsailer. .. . .. . . ...

grizz sendz

Your pram looks like a Harold "Dynamite" Payson design, one of his "stich & glue, instant boat" designs.

> Good eye Ji. it's a Bolger design called 'Nymph' and Payson did sell plans for it. I got the offsets from one of Bolger's books I think. Started at 8' long, mine is exactly 10' with so much rocker that he rows equally well either direction. :)

I don't recall ever hearing about "Ariel". Is her hull wood/glass or full fiberglass? Is her hull damage from grounding beyond repair?

> Full heavy fiberglass construction. The hull didn't get a scratch. My 20T house lifting jack wouldn't budge her, but no hull deflection from trying. She came up easy and I kedged her off. She sometimes sees 75kt wind down the long fetch of the bay, 20 to 40 not unusual.

I bought Ariel in 2017 for a trip to Alaska. She was sitting in Arlington, OR for 20 years or so, up the Columbia River. I bought the engine and the boat was thrown in for free, and spent weeks getting the boat ready and provisioned for the trip. did not get the sail rig functional, but had use of jib. running rigging had rotted and jammed the blocks with the bits that flapped around. Cruised down Columbia at what amounted to flood runoff stage, the locks were spilling near max volume, and little Ariel got herself out of some 'interesting' situations. Eventually crossed the Columbia bar and coasted up to Cape Flattery and into Straight of Juan deFuca. Took a break and then started Northward thru the Salish Sea to Nanaimo for customs entry to Canada. Scratched the trip there faced with endless westerlies. Little sailboats don't do well faced with long haul westerlies. I missed the bus. Motor-sailed home and anchored up. With a fully functional sail rig she could have sailed NW to about lat of Kodiak, and turned across to enter Cross Sound. But I didn't have time for that, family coming to meet there.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/ariel-26-pearson
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pearson_ariel_photo.jpg
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My only consistent "dreamboat" is my wife of 42 years, but as far as watercrafts I have had many, but one that has stuck in my heart is pictured below,

a Pacific Seacrafts 20ʻ "Flicka" preferably with a gaff rig (not a fan of Marconi rigs aesthetically), though a Chinese lug rig would be ideal. she could easily do interisland trips, no problemo, or a final horizon trip west towards sunset.

> Good one. That's a world wandering design, famous among cruiser folk.

What boat photos did you have in mind? One recent (March 2019) purchase is also pictured below. As you may know I love to dive, and fish offshore, so I purchased what turned out to be ideal for my needs, a 14ʻ6 Solo Skiff which is basically a wide (41") hull, square sterned power kayak. With a 6hp outboard she can do 12 knots all day trolling for pelagics on 3 gallons of fuel, she has considerable watertight in-hull storage, she has an open stern which allows any water coming over the bow to flow straight out the stern, so no bailing, and she has a low freeboard which make ingress/egress when diving a piece of cake. I have had her out in 12ʻ seas, 20 knot winds, with her hull submerged half the time with hardly a worry.

>Thanks for this. This is an amazing vessel. Great solution for your needs.

One weak point of my dory has always been taking in water over the gunwales when climbing back in after a dive.

> You know of course that this is considered a main asset when fishing from dorys. A 300 pound halibut slides right in with no lifting.

Keep us posted on the progress of your dory/cat build. 👍

> Won't be much news in that department. Fall finally arrives Friday with wind and rain for the weekend. First actual rain storm since June. Today is my last commute to the boat to repair the anchor roller and set up for the winter. The Aeolus is in the shop for new transom, that can proceed once I am weathered out of the out doors.

Thanks for the feed-back Ji
grizz
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Ji in Hawaii
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

Grizz wrote: Thu Oct 20, 2022 8:35 am
> Good eye Ji. it's a Bolger design called 'Nymph' and Payson did sell plans for it. I got the offsets from one of Bolger's books I think. Started at 8' long, mine is exactly 10' with so much rocker that he rows equally well either direction. :)

I forgot, the designer was Bolger, the marketer was Payson. I built Bolger's "Elegant Punt" back in 1982. It took one weekend, and she served me well for over 15 years. She rowed nicer than Imaged even with her exaugurated rocker in short 7ʻ9 overall length. My mother-in-law used to call it "the coffin", wishful thinking on her part. I do see the resemblance though. :D

> Full heavy fiberglass construction. The hull didn't get a scratch. My 20T house lifting jack wouldn't budge her, but no hull deflection from trying. She came up easy and I kedged her off. She sometimes sees 75kt wind down the long fetch of the bay, 20 to 40 not unusual.

I bought Ariel in 2017 for a trip to Alaska. She was sitting in Arlington, OR for 20 years or so, up the Columbia River. I bought the engine and the boat was thrown in for free, and spent weeks getting the boat ready and provisioned for the trip. did not get the sail rig functional, but had use of jib. running rigging had rotted and jammed the blocks with the bits that flapped around. Cruised down Columbia at what amounted to flood runoff stage, the locks were spilling near max volume, and little Ariel got herself out of some 'interesting' situations. Eventually crossed the Columbia bar and coasted up to Cape Flattery and into Straight of Juan deFuca. Took a break and then started Northward thru the Salish Sea to Nanaimo for customs entry to Canada. Scratched the trip there faced with endless westerlies. Little sailboats don't do well faced with long haul westerlies. I missed the bus. Motor-sailed home and anchored up. With a fully functional sail rig she could have sailed NW to about lat of Kodiak, and turned across to enter Cross Sound. But I didn't have time for that, family coming to meet there.

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/ariel-26-pearson
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pearson_ariel_photo.jpg
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Very nice. When you got your Ariel did it have the Atomic 4 gasoline auxiliary motor? I grew up with phobia of gasoline inboards. Any plans for a diesel upgrade?

> You know of course that this is considered a main asset when fishing from dorys. A 300 pound halibut slides right in with no lifting.

My dad used to dive from his Grand Banks dories both in Tokyo Bay, and here in Hawaiʻi, and I grew up diving from his dory too, and appreciating itʻs secondary stability when getting back onboard. I believe those old wooden hull dories weighed in at over 250 pounds. My current fiberglass dory is around 100 pounds, and I weigh in at 215 (heavyweight) pounds. This weight combined with 3 fused vertebrae, chronic back pain, and plain arthritic old age has made getting into a dory over the gunwales especially in deeper waters where I cannot push off the bottom, quite the trial. Everything loose in the boat would slide toward me, and into the salty bilge in the process too. No fault of the dory, just the fault of a stiff old man with a broken body. In my youth I was like a lithe young sealion flying over the gunwale without giving it a second thought. Those days are long gone, thus the appreciation for the low freeboard Solo Skiff.
That reminds me, one of my favorite paintings is by Winslow Homer.


> Won't be much news in that department. Fall finally arrives Friday with wind and rain for the weekend. First actual rain storm since June. Today is my last commute to the boat to repair the anchor roller and set up for the winter. The Aeolus is in the shop for new transom, that can proceed once I am weathered out of the out doors.

Thanks for the feed-back Ji

I shall patiently await your spring progress report.
EPunt 02.jpg
Fay Men.jpg
Winslow_Homer_-_The_Fog_Warning_(1885).jpg
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Illegitimus Non Carborundum
Akā, ʻo ka poʻe hilinaʻi aku iā Iēhova, e ulu hou nō ko lākou ikaika;
E piʻi ʻēheu aku nō lākou i luna, e like me nā ʻaito;
E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
E hele mua nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e maʻule.
`Isaia 40:31
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Ji in Hawaii
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

CowboyTutt wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:48 pm Ji, I just read last night there has been a lot of volcanic activity over there recently. Is it more than usual? Anything to be concerned about for you? -Tutt
I am on the island of O'ahu of which all it's volcanoes are "extinct" (dead). Maui, where I used to live had it's last eruption I believe in 1790 so considered "dormant" (sleeping). Now the island of Hawai'i has been active in one place or another non-stop since I believe 1982. Right now Kilauea volcano is very active but that can change pretty quick. I had a sister living near Pahoa on Hawai'i island raising Morgans. One day the ground opens up, and starts spewing lava, like a Hollywood movie. It scared her enough that she wound up moving to Arizona with her daughter. The only thing we suffer here on O'ahu is the occasional earthquake. Thanks for asking. 🤙
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ioIEjl3ayek&t=78s
Last edited by Ji in Hawaii on Fri Oct 21, 2022 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Illegitimus Non Carborundum
Akā, ʻo ka poʻe hilinaʻi aku iā Iēhova, e ulu hou nō ko lākou ikaika;
E piʻi ʻēheu aku nō lākou i luna, e like me nā ʻaito;
E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
E hele mua nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e maʻule.
`Isaia 40:31
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Grizz
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Grizz »

Ji, thank you so much for those photos. I treasure the one of your Dad and dory. There is a lot of narrative in that scene.
Very nice. When you got your Ariel did it have the Atomic 4 gasoline auxiliary motor? I grew up with phobia of gasoline inboards. Any plans for a diesel upgrade?
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no engine in mine. there is a well in the lazarette which is HORRIBLE in any kind of bounce because when the overhang slaps down it forces water up and into the engine. I was given some old fire hose and made a 'get-up' thinga-majig to block the water spouts. But Oh My what a nuisance! I would have MUCH PREFERRED the inboard engine. I get along well with them and they in turn treat me well....
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My first power fishing vessel had a flathead 6 in it with updraft carburetor. There are tips, [rules] for safe fuel use. And that gas inboard was QUIET. I've thought about using a tiny Honda 4-stroke with a model airplane prop on a long shaft for the raft project. I even welded the leaking tank tops in place to re-seal them. There's a trick to it. I rebuilt that engine from a total tear-down for a couple hundred $.
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My only plan for Ariel is to part out for the raft, or sell outright if there's any interest. There is a long ton of lead in there . . . could make mucho bullits for the trade. Rafts don't need ballast, they use buoyancy to stand up to the sails. :)
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Ariel was raced, there were crowded Ariel fleets at one time. But she is NOT a seagoing vessel in the sense of Jester or Ming MIng. The design is sea worthy, but the execution screams makeover. The cockpit scuppers for one. The scuppers should go out the transom like Tom Thumb, but that means the entire cockpit needs to be moved aft. But the counter stern precludes that. The hole in the counter stern has to be plugged off. The deck scuppers need to be closed off. They consist of holes in the waterways to divert the run off down thru little water passages that exit near the water line. Don't want no stinking drip lines down the side of the gorgeous hull, no siree. The little lady won't have to spend any time at the dock polishing out water stains! The cockpit itself is too large, but not large enough at the same time.
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The setup precludes working over the stern, and the keel mounted rudder is well out of reach and the rudder shaft comes up thru the cockpit floor. I'm NOT a fan of that. I've thought of removing that rudder and hanging one off the transom with a trim tab for the wind vane gear. But imagine the wild effect that has on the centers. As built, Ariel can can be trimmed on certain relative headings to sail hands off, and will return herself to course if diverted. Amazing. But move the center aft and suddenly the boat needs a mizzen sail!





One cool thing I did when I installed the Tohatsu 6 Hp long leg sailboat engine was to rig steering cables into the cockpit. Whole new world of maneuverability! It was like having a real reverse AND a side thruster at the same time. Took the worry out of being close.



Roger on backs and joints and the pains of moving around. I ain't the sailor I used to be!
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Re: speaking of canoes

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This canoe is Joshua Slocum's self-rescue vessel which he built on a beach after the loss of his ship. This image has an amazing example of Slocum's sailing genius. Zoom around if you are interested in such things, what do you see? Sorry it's a little fuzzy. The hi-res one is 45Mb...
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Re: speaking of canoes

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this illustrates the modification to the open dory boat to make ocean seafaring safe and effective. it's a guide, may look different in the final solution.
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099cc.png
WITHOUT THE KEEL. Keels can trip dorys, although this one could bear it well. This hull section might be from a modified North Sea Dutch fishing vessel.

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Re: speaking of canoes

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more canoe-like is this twin kayak setup used by polar explorer Nansen. He carried bamboo for this purpose and built two kayaks covered with sail cloth I think. the objects on the stern are the sledges used to move the boats across the ice. they could be sailed individually, but this method makes sense. sailing was both safe and effective. He was looking around for the North Pole. It was kind of a race of sorts.
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http://thecheappages.com/n_the/bamboo_kayak.html for a good story

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Ji in Hawaii
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Re: speaking of canoes

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Grizz wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:51 pm .
This canoe is Joshua Slocum's self-rescue vessel which he built on a beach after the loss of his ship. This image has an amazing example of Slocum's sailing genius. Zoom around if you are interested in such things, what do you see? Sorry it's a little fuzzy. The hi-res one is 45Mb...
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291c.png
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I always thought (as did Dad) that Slocum's appreciation of the Chinese lug rig was way ahead of his time. All my dad's final dream boats plans incorporated the Chinese lug rig sails. Here's a modern rendition of the Liberdade below, as well as lug rigged "Spray" replica. They remind me of dragon wings:
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Illegitimus Non Carborundum
Akā, ʻo ka poʻe hilinaʻi aku iā Iēhova, e ulu hou nō ko lākou ikaika;
E piʻi ʻēheu aku nō lākou i luna, e like me nā ʻaito;
E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
E hele mua nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e maʻule.
`Isaia 40:31
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Re: speaking of canoes

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Grizz wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 1:12 pm this illustrates the modification to the open dory boat to make ocean seafaring safe and effective. it's a guide, may look different in the final solution.
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099cc.png

WITHOUT THE KEEL. Keels can trip dorys, although this one could bear it well. This hull section might be from a modified North Sea Dutch fishing vessel.

This dory below my dad actually purchased full size plans for, and even ordered some Yanmar diesel brochures for. This was about as close as we came to fulfilling his dreamboat ideas. I may even still have the plans stashed away. This was shortly after he retired in 1974, so I was 14, and we had plans to go into fulltime commercial fishing. I forget what caused us to nix those plans. 28 years later I find this dory in a slip in Kaunakakai Harbor, Moloka'i, and It was in immaculate condition reflecting pride of ownership, it was rigged almost perfectly for commercial fishing (open deck with plenty fish holds), and best of all it was for sale! I quickly wrote down the contact info, took pictures, and notified my dad that we finally had our dream fishing boat already built! He really liked the boat but by this time he was over 80, and taking care of my ailing mom was a full time job. We lived on different islands, and I had my wife and kids to think of. When we thought about it we realized our commercial fishing venture should remain a dream.
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Illegitimus Non Carborundum
Akā, ʻo ka poʻe hilinaʻi aku iā Iēhova, e ulu hou nō ko lākou ikaika;
E piʻi ʻēheu aku nō lākou i luna, e like me nā ʻaito;
E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
E hele mua nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e maʻule.
`Isaia 40:31
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Grizz
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Re: speaking of canoes

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Ji in Hawaii wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:08 pm
Grizz wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:51 pm .
This canoe is Joshua Slocum's self-rescue vessel which he built on a beach after the loss of his ship. This image has an amazing example of Slocum's sailing genius. Zoom around if you are interested in such things, what do you see? Sorry it's a little fuzzy. The hi-res one is 45Mb...
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291c.png
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I always thought (as did Dad) that Slocum's appreciation of the Chinese lug rig was way ahead of his time. All my dad's final dream boats plans incorporated the Chinese lug rig sails. Here's a modern rendition of the Liberdade below, as well as lug rigged "Spray" replica. They remind me of dragon wings:
I agree about the lug rigs, they can be amazing. I think they are less so because of the amount and length of strings that have to be minded on small boats, and they can foul their masts, Their benefits don't seem to scale down, but might be all wet. I am favoring the Wharram sleeved sail, easy to jiffy reef and less stuff up in the air. and easy to hinge the mast down to the horse for drifting days.

Love the big power dory. Just looks "Ready".

any opinion on what Slocum is doing exactly? I know it's hard to see. It took me a while to figure it out.
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291-detail.png
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AND Re your Dad's power dory, found this lifting prop detail in my files:
Screenshot 2022-10-22 121206-dory-engine-shaft.png
this one is a little more complicated than the originals, trying to automate the retraction it seems . . .
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Ji in Hawaii
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

Ji in Hawaii wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:08 pm
Grizz wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 12:51 pm
I always thought (as did Dad) that Slocum's appreciation of the Chinese lug rig was way ahead of his time. All my dad's final dream boats plans incorporated the Chinese lug rig sails. Here's a modern rendition of the Liberdade below, as well as lug rigged "Spray" replica. They remind me of dragon wings:
I agree about the lug rigs, they can be amazing. I think they are less so because of the amount and length of strings that have to be minded on small boats, and they can foul their masts, Their benefits don't seem to scale down, but might be all wet. I am favoring the Wharram sleeved sail, easy to jiffy reef and less stuff up in the air. and easy to hinge the mast down to the horse for drifting days.
I can't speak from personal experience with junk rigs, but I always trusted my dad's experience, and knowledge base on any subject to do with boats, and especially sailing. Wish he was still around to pick his brains some more on the subject. Some points I recall he mentioning as to pros of the rig was easy raising, lowering, and reefing of the sails. Also, the simplicity of no standard rigging . I think he mentioned as a con (to some, but not to him) not being able to sail as close to windward as a Marconi/Bermuda rig, but who's in a rush when sailing was his way of thinking. 👍🏿
He tried to teach me celestial navigation countless times, even bought me my own personal sextant, but alas my poor brain was too distracted to focus during my teen years.
Illegitimus Non Carborundum
Akā, ʻo ka poʻe hilinaʻi aku iā Iēhova, e ulu hou nō ko lākou ikaika;
E piʻi ʻēheu aku nō lākou i luna, e like me nā ʻaito;
E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
E hele mua nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e maʻule.
`Isaia 40:31
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Grizz »

not even a little bit canoe, but a very fetching cruiser that only uses sails for motor sailing, or roll control, or getting back if the crankshaft modifies itself...

https://georgebuehler.com/44-pilgrim/
Screenshot 2022-10-24 184757-Pilgrim-1.png
the designer has passed on to, well, there somewhere, i suppose. but anyway this little boat could be scaled down, and is fully capable of cruising around the world by engine alone. it is a dory in cross section and plan. but he's used a lifeboat type engine that barely sips fuel, and this table is his calculation on the possible range on a hundred gallons of fuel.....
LOD: 44’11” LWL: 40′ 7 Beam: 10′ 6″Draft: 3′ 4″ Displ.: 10,941 lbs. Displ. loaded 2″ past LWL: 13,158 lbs. Power: 15 to 20HP

Projected speed/power requirements, calm and off-weather conditions (read that again before you write me!)

V/L…… Knots……. HP…………. Range with 100 gallons @.06 gal/HP hour

1………. 6.37……… 1.9………………….. 7012 miles
1.1……. 7.01……… 2.9………………….. 4909
1.2……. 7.64……… 4.6………………….. 3466
1.25….. 7.96……… 6.2………………….. 2667
1.3……. 8.28……… 8.4………………….. 2026
1.35….. 8.60……..11.4…………………. 1559
Pushing 11000 pounds of boat around with abt 2 Hp can get you 6Kts and 7,000 nautical miles of world cruising. In some ways that is WAY CHEAPER than the cost of a sail rig. notice that if you increase rpm to 3Hp it costs you about 2000 miles for a time saving of 0.3Kts. Not a good trade-off. If you bump up your speed to 8.6, you've cut your range to 1560, which would get you about half way to L.A., if you know the way.

That makes 144 mile 24 hour days. That's amazing. That's 48 days sailing on a hundred gallons. Not likely to get 48 days of perfect weather, but I'd keep my fingers crossed, er, whatever. 8)

The reason little sail boats can't motor that far is that they can't hold 700 pounds of fuel. Pilgrim on the other hand could carry 200 gallons no problem. So if i wanted to have a cruiser like Pilgrim, but smaller, something that could carry 100 gallons of fuel and be propelled efficiently, it could probably be done on a 27 foot St. Pierre Dory, decked and rigged correctly with smooth bottom and low drag, a world cruiser with with the right engine. and a great inter-island explorer that can travel in inches of water and beach upright between the tides.
StPierre.jpg
in the nearest boat you can see the lifting device in the up posirion, housing the prop and shaft.

That outboard version of Pilgrim could be a killer. When i was cruising Ariel with an outboard it was setting off the CO detector in the cabin. Even though the exhaust was through the hub and i could see the bubbles in the wake. the forward motion was enough pull enough air from behind me to turn the cabin into a kill zone.

Pilgrim is altogether fetching, powering across the trades to get to the hard to sail to islands . . . delicious.

and in the "then, on the other hand" category, here is a vessel that is more akin to a canoe with some canoe like features, plus a dry shack for when it's wanted.

https://www.dixdesign.com/FastEddy.htm Yup. Fast Eddy .



>
Screenshot 2022-10-25 180143.png
:lol:
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Grizz »

how about a real sailing canoe? this one has classic proportions with modern construction. it can be used for fun sailing, or packing meat out of a river camp, or fishing the tide lines, or just snoozing in a gentle swell away from the car noise..... not cheap though, once you start adding up all the bits and pieces. cost more than my 4runner.
Screenshot 2022-10-27 003627-clc-sailing-canoe.png
there's nice photos at the link > https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats/can ... e_drawings

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Re: speaking of canoes

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I have never been on saltwater, and am enjoying learning a little from this thread. Ocean boats and freshwater boats have slightly different designs because of different needs.
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Re: speaking of canoes

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piller wrote: Thu Oct 27, 2022 10:27 am I have never been on saltwater, and am enjoying learning a little from this thread. Ocean boats and freshwater boats have slightly different designs because of different needs.
it's a pretty long drive for you to get to saltwater. lots of lakes around if you do recreational boating. the mind set of traveling by boat is different. i like to say it's just like a day boat, but you don't turn around and go back, you just keep going. it's a learn by doing type of thing, like learning to ride a bicycle. classic books are very good at transporting you into someone else's narrative while staying warm, dry, and motionless! pacific island proas are still advanced traveling boats. i could post a list of books that are so well written that you can almost smell the salt air and the back draft of the coal fire.

someone walked into the surf line at Los Angeles with an innertube, and something like 60 days later he drifted ashore in Hawaii. that was years ago. i cannot find any reference online, but i may have a newspaper clipping somewhere. it kind of takes the ego trip out of sea tripping. LOL
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Re: speaking of canoes

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CowboyTutt wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:48 pm Ji, I just read last night there has been a lot of volcanic activity over there recently. Is it more than usual? Anything to be concerned about for you? -Tutt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzvOxaLo1TA :o
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Griff »

Nona Boats of Costa Mesa, CA made some good canoes, from the (IIRC)11' Solo to the 25' War Canoe, they were hand laid fiberglass with molded seats & portage bar. They also offered Kevlar. I'd like to find a gently used 15-½' in Kevlar. The 17-½' was great for two & cargo, but a bit sluggish/cumbersome by myself.
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Re: speaking of canoes

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Ji in Hawaii wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 6:56 am
CowboyTutt wrote: Mon Oct 17, 2022 4:48 pm Ji, I just read last night there has been a lot of volcanic activity over there recently. Is it more than usual? Anything to be concerned about for you? -Tutt
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzvOxaLo1TA :o
Phoooey! Hope you live upwind from there. Do those volcanoes have pyroclastic flows? Is your island over the hotspot? Lots of active geology happening there.
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Re: speaking of canoes

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Griff wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 12:30 pm Nona Boats of Costa Mesa, CA made some good canoes, from the (IIRC)11' Solo to the 25' War Canoe, they were hand laid fiberglass with molded seats & portage bar. They also offered Kevlar. I'd like to find a gently used 15-½' in Kevlar. The 17-½' was great for two & cargo, but a bit sluggish/cumbersome by myself.
sounds like a good thing to have around. i keep looking at canoes even though i already have too many boats. but "War Canoe" does have an interesting flavor to it. :lol:
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Re: speaking of canoes

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checking out war canoes i stumbled on this gorgeous amazing image >
.
catamaran-older-model.jpg
.
.
i think i see a rocket launcher and a swivel gun on the bow, and a couple of hoplites visiting with the navigator or captain. not sure which...
.
but for the out of context stuff it is a fact that pacific islanders have an amazing history of intentional exploration and expansion with boats a lot like this one.
.
. this following image is one theory, but it gives an idea of the scope and scale of their restless voyages.
.
.
Screenshot 2022-10-29 135512-pacific-migration-theory.png
.
.
i've read that the finding and occupation of Hawaii was intentional. this migration map says that Hawaiians discovered and settled New Zealand, which is possible based on trade winds. IDK about the details, but I have enormous respect for the seamen who made these voyages and the boats they built for the round trips. i always wonder about the voyages that went wrong. like hitting the roaring 40s and blowing past Tierra del Fuego at 40 kts. that would be a whole different chapter of unintended consequences...

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I believe it was the people who found Polynesia, who were the expansionist/explorers who as they continued to explore & settle the Pacific islands became the Hawaiian, Tongan, Fijian, Maori & Samoans. There are some who've said it was Maoris who sailed North to become Hawaiians! I don't remember what evidence they cited in support of this theory.
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Re: speaking of canoes

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I have found this a fantastically educationally thread, thanks to all you sailors who have contributed... 8) ,,
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Re: speaking of canoes

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Grizz wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 5:21 pm checking out war canoes i stumbled on this gorgeous amazing image >
.
catamaran-older-model.jpg
.
.
i think i see a rocket launcher and a swivel gun on the bow, and a couple of hoplites visiting with the navigator or captain. not sure which...
.
but for the out of context stuff it is a fact that pacific islanders have an amazing history of intentional exploration and expansion with boats a lot like this one.
.
. this following image is one theory, but it gives an idea of the scope and scale of their restless voyages.
.
.
Screenshot 2022-10-29 135512-pacific-migration-theory.png
.
.
i've read that the finding and occupation of Hawaii was intentional. this migration map says that Hawaiians discovered and settled New Zealand, which is possible based on trade winds. IDK about the details, but I have enormous respect for the seamen who made these voyages and the boats they built for the round trips. i always wonder about the voyages that went wrong. like hitting the roaring 40s and blowing past Tierra del Fuego at 40 kts. that would be a whole different chapter of unintended consequences...

That painting above is by local Hawaiian artist Herb Kane (Kah-neh) of the invasion fleet of King Kamehameha the Great who first conquered his home island of Hawai'i, and eventually united all the Hawaiian Islands under one flag. By this time he had adopted western weapons (firearms and cannons) as well as western sail rigging for his canoes. Interesting how the Hawaiian helmets worn by royalty resembled the Greeks. There's all kinds of crazy theories on that subject alone that I refer to ignore.
Here's a painting of the Battle of Nu'u'anu the last battle of King Kamehameha's conquest uniting all Hawaiian Island. This was fought about 10 minutes from my home. The armies of the last ruler of O'ahu- Kalanikupule were driven up Nu'u'anu valley to the upper end where it terminated in a cliff. The O'ahu forces driven to the cliff edge, and forced off the cliff to their death.

Much of Polynesia is made up of small islands, and when the population grew too big these intrepid explorers would go looking for new lands to settle. They were fearless.
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E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
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Re: speaking of canoes

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Griff wrote: Sat Oct 29, 2022 8:15 pm I believe it was the people who found Polynesia, who were the expansionist/explorers who as they continued to explore & settle the Pacific islands became the Hawaiian, Tongan, Fijian, Maori & Samoans. There are some who've said it was Maoris who sailed North to become Hawaiians! I don't remember what evidence they cited in support of this theory.
Archaeological evidence indicates Hawai'i was first settled by islanders from the Marquesas Islands about 400 CE. Aotearoa (New Zealand) was first settled around 1350 CE, so about a thousand years later, and one of the last places discovered and settled by Polynesians. Almost all Polynesian mythology calls their ancestral home "Havaiki" which many Maori of Aotearoa equate to Hawai'i. The largest island in the Sāmoa Archipelagos is called "Savaiʻi" and it is believed to have been first settled as early as 1500 BCE. Many scholars believe Savaiʻi as being a more likely starting point of many voyages throughout Polynesian history, and the mythical land Havaiki. Some scholars have even suggested the island of Java due to itʻs similar name, and the general path of migration. Who knows for sure? Fun to speculate, and hypothesize. 😁👍
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E piʻi ʻēheu aku nō lākou i luna, e like me nā ʻaito;
E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Grizz »

Thanks for the info Ji. That's a nasty battle scene, might be the wallpaper for a while here. I really like the sailing fleet image. Greek fire would be the only defense. How many boats in that fleet I wonder.

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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

Grizz wrote: Sun Oct 30, 2022 8:09 pm Thanks for the info Ji. That's a nasty battle scene, might be the wallpaper for a while here. I really like the sailing fleet image. Greek fire would be the only defense. How many boats in that fleet I wonder.

1200 war canoes, and a schooner. :wink:
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E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Grizz »

there is an event on the gulf coast called the Texas200. It's a mob of boaters sailing a couple hundred miles west along the gulf coast in mostly small mostly open boats that aren't much more in capacity than freight canoes. and many are much smaller than canoes.

this search will bring up lots of images of the variety of boats making the trip.

texas 200 sailboat club

and this is their website showing the camp sites for this years event, sailed last June. a sailing canoe could make this trip.

https://www.texas200.com/Route.html
Screenshot 2022-11-04 202244-Texas200.png
it might look simple and relaxed and groovy, but the conditions aren't. winds are usually blowing hard offshore, good for making time, but requires lots of attention. and it's unbelievably Hot. and buggy some places.



it's one way to break the monotony of the monotony. I'm glad they are doing it. even reading about it is medicine . . .

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Re: speaking of canoes

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Grizz, have you ever taken part in the SF Bay Open Ocean Regatta? First time I heard of it, it had great appeal to me. I love to row, and rowing through the Golden Gate sure sounds nice.
https://www.owrc.com/open-ocean-regatta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBC8qX1M6hc
I have considered rowing my dory to Moloka'i and back to Kailua about a 60 mile round trip. Would probably camp overnight at Hale'olono Harbor, and return the following morning. Would have to pick the days and season right as the Ka'iwi channel which separates O'ahu from Moloka'i can get extremely rough. I've sailed across that channel several times but never rowed it. Hmmm.
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Re: speaking of canoes

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Ji in Hawaii wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 1:29 am Grizz, have you ever taken part in the SF Bay Open Ocean Regatta? First time I heard of it, it had great appeal to me. I love to row, and rowing through the Golden Gate sure sounds nice.
https://www.owrc.com/open-ocean-regatta https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fBC8qX1M6hc
I have considered rowing my dory to Moloka'i and back to Kailua about a 60 mile round trip. Would probably camp overnight at Hale'olono Harbor, and return the following morning. Would have to pick the days and season right as the Ka'iwi channel which separates O'ahu from Moloka'i can get extremely rough. I've sailed across that channel several times but never rowed it. Hmmm.
I was gone before that was formalized. I have rowed and sailed most of the tracks, or crossed them. Including beaching the dory outside the Gate and nearly losing it in the undertow... it was swamped by the outboard well, which is why my current Aeolus no longer has one. A friend was with me and we were able to dry it out and get back to sausalito. was using seagull outboard for that jaunt.

i lived in berkeley on the east side of the bay. the normal routine bay wx is nearly flat calm mornings, and then the afternoon hurricane when the east shore heats and pulls in west wind through the entrance and pounding onto the E shore. so the drill was to sail in light airs wherever, then surf back on the boisterous days.

one day i went out in a 22' sailboat in winds that kept everyone else in. almost everyone. when i got close to the SF shoreline there was a tiny red speck visible. as i closed with him he turned into an open 8 foot pram with the sailor in a wet suit, sheet clamped to tiller with one hand, and a bucket in the other bailing. he was dancing back and forth outside of the SF yacht club, in the area where the America's Cup was raced for. we had the entire Bay to ourselves! And big grins! Those winds are reliable enough that MORC races can be scheduled ahead of time.

A sail maker I met told me a story that influences my boat gear to this day. He would pick a day when the winds were 'boisterous', and put a 100$ bill on the bar at SF yacht club and ask if anyone wanted to race to the Farallons. First one back to the bar collected the 200$ purse. He never lost that race. For some reason he told me how...
.
Screenshot 2022-11-05 081240-FarallonIslands.png
.
Screenshot 2022-11-05 082058.png
he sailed straight into the teeth of the gales. the ground swell outside the Bay gets monstrously huge. you will be familiar with that.

after dark the winds normally die down. i rowed at night from berserkeley to sausalito several times. quiet enough to think. the night i heard the song of the sirens i asked myself "what am i doing here, surrounded by millions of people?" so i left kali. one thing leads to another, and here i am, surrounded by Millions of people. ! ! :lol:

I might not have answered your question. I hope you do go row camping. I am sure you are tuned into the winds and tides and currents and weather signals. You are part of the sea and the islands. Take pictures and write your experiences for us arm-chair sailors. †
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Re: speaking of canoes

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I have an older brother 5 years my senior who lives in Newark on the East bay for about 45 years now. He inherited sea genes from my dad too but on a grander scale. He had a auto repair shop in Hayward, and did quite well. He bought himself a 38' Bayliner powered by twin Hino diesels. He kept it moored first at Oyster Point marina on the west side since it was cheaper, but a longer drive, and later at San Leandro marina on the East Bay, costlier but closer to home. He would take my dad out on the bay when dad would go visit him. A Bayliner was tad too "yachty" for dad's tastes, but he enjoyed being on the water with his #1 son. My brother had great sea legs so rough seas could not phase him, but his wife and kids would be puking their guts out within 30 minutes of being outside the harbor especially if an afternoon cruise in choppy seas. He later on wound up taking that behemoth out solo, not an easy task, so he wound up selling it at a big loss when the market was down, but he was happy when he did. He retired, sold his shop, and bought two rental properties in Pleasanton. He doesn't miss his shop either. Owning a small business can be brutal especially an auto repair shop in over-regulated California.

Funny story, Farallon Islands related. Before he opened his own shop, my brother worked for a Saab/Subaru dealer in San Leandro. That dealer's owner loved to fish, and to show his appreciation for his employees, once a year he would reserve a party boat, and take them all out to the Farallons on a bottom fishing charter. They'd throw money into a pot, winner take all for largest catch. My brother with his afore mentioned sea legs would always win because he never got sea sick, so could fish consistently through the whole time at the Farallons while the rest were hanging over the gunwales "chumming" the water.
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Re: speaking of canoes

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Until the J&J vaccine put about 50 blood clots into my Cerebellum, I never got sick from whitecaps. Now, I puke going up or down stairs. I can't go out on a freshwater lake without first taking Dramamine.
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Re: speaking of canoes

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piller wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 9:00 pm Until the J&J vaccine put about 50 blood clots into my Cerebellum, I never got sick from whitecaps. Now, I puke going up or down stairs. I can't go out on a freshwater lake without first taking Dramamine.
WOW, what a bummer. Was it spotted with a cat scan? I'm fortunate, I've had 2 Pfizer, a J&J, and 2 more Moderna vaccinations, and no side effects at all. Will the clots eventually clear?
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E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
E hele mua nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e maʻule.
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Re: speaking of canoes

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The clots may clear, but I will be on a blood thinner for the rest of my life. I have some weird genetics. My chart at U. T. Southwestern hospital has a notation. "Herd of zebras".
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Ji in Hawaii »

piller wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 8:23 pm The clots may clear, but I will be on a blood thinner for the rest of my life. I have some weird genetics. My chart at U. T. Southwestern hospital has a notation. "Herd of zebras".
Be careful especially when out in the woods. I minor fall, or even a poke by a mesquite thorn will get you bleeding pretty bad with all that Coumadin in your blood stream. Both my dad, and my kid sis had heart valves replaced, with mandatory blood thinners in use. I always had to carry a roll of paper towels in the car. Dad's skin was very thin too in his final years, so easily broken. My kid sis bruised super easily after her heart surgery. Her cat gave her a real shiner one time. Take care of yourself.
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E holo nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e māloʻeloʻe,
E hele mua nō lākou, ʻaʻole hoʻi e maʻule.
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Re: speaking of canoes

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I have had a few of the blood spots , and my skin is thick. I am on Brilinta. My liver doesn't clear Coumadin. It would make me bleed to death with only a sneeze.
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Re: speaking of canoes

Post by Grizz »

Grizz wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:52 pm a very fetching cruiser that only uses sails for motor sailing, or roll control, or getting back if the crankshaft modifies itself...

https://georgebuehler.com/44-pilgrim/

this little boat could be scaled down, and is fully capable of cruising around the world by engine alone. it is a dory in cross section and plan. but he's used a lifeboat type engine that barely sips fuel
LOD: 44’11” LWL: 40′ 7 Beam: 10′ 6″Draft: 3′ 4″ Displ.: 10,941 lbs. Displ. loaded 2″ past LWL: 13,158 lbs. Power: 15 to 20HP
Al Grover crossed the Atlantic in an open outboard powered boat, surviving a hurricane on the way...

https://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/at-s ... -al-grover

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7AURejJj_Q

I think it's been done by others since then. Someone with a 2Hp engine ? ? Crossing the Atlantic in small boats has been done hundreds of times. No telling how many ended their journey half way. . .

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