.50-70 Gov't question

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Scott Tschirhart
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.50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Guys,

I know that this may sound wrong, but I think I want to try loading for my .50-70 Sharps with smokeless powder.

Has anyone tried this? Its a carbine and I don't need a heavy load, though I think that Shiloh action will take a lot more pressure than I would want to load.

I'm thinking about playing with Trail Boss to begin with.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by 3leggedturtle »

Lyman Cast Bullet 3rd Edition has about 10 loads for it, but I dont have it handy at the moment..
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Rockrat »

I have used 4759 in mine.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Ray Newman »

SR 4759 was a good smokeless lead bullet powder. Problem is that production of it ceased about 8 years ago.

Many lead bullet shooters swear by Trail Boss, but I looked on the Hodgdon reloading site for Trail Bossa in the 50-70 Govt. and no loads were listed.

Lyman #50 manual gives the following for a 50-70 Govt with 425 grain (#2 alloy) bullet

Unique 11.0 grains 1003 FPS - 14.8 grains 1211 FPS MAX

SR4759 22.0 grains 1114 FPS - 26.5 1313 FPS MAX

IMR4227 22.0 grains 1102 FPS - 27.3 grains 1333 FPS MAX

IMR4198 25.5 grains 1129 FPS* - 30.0 grains 1305 FPS MAX

* Lyman claims this the most accurate



Have you thought about a light Duplex load?
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Ray Newman wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 12:01 pm Have you thought about a light Duplex load?
Thanks Ray,

No, I want something a bit simpler. I've never shot anything but Goex black powder in this rifle, and I haven't spent much time with it over the past few years. With the passing of my old friend Bill Bagwell, I am looking to get it out again.

The possibility of using Unique makes this very interesting. Does Lyman say anything about using a filler?

Thanks again,

Scott
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Ray Newman »

Scott: Nothing in the Lyman .50-70 Gov't. load data on fillers.

Primer for load data was the Federal 215 -large rifle magnum

Bullet loaded was the Lyman 515141, 425 grains, sized to .511" dia.

Test rifle utilized was a Shiloh-Sharps, 22" barrel, 1:48" twist, groove dia. .511"
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Sixgun »

I load 95% of my dash numbered antique cartridges.....at least 20-25......with 5744....it has a high nitro content which makes it less position sensitive.....in spite of what "they" say, it's still position and temperature sensitive, just not as much. It's burn rate is near 4227 and while it won't set no velocity records, it reliable in any temperature and any sensible load........

I've shot enough with detailed chronographing and records to know the difference. Anytime you get to the burn rate of 3031 or slower problems start up when the temperature or the muzzle drops.

I did load at one time for the 50-70 in an old Springfield......THAT cartridge almost demands B.P.......not because smokeless won't do the trick as it will............have a loss of words here.........a clunker of a cartridge with light loads of smokeless.....there's no "boom!"....there's a "clank", little recoil, and bullet is on its way to a major rainbow trajectory......at least with B.P., you feel like your getting something for your efforts.-------006
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I generally load that Lyman 515141 bullet over a jigger full of Goex. Recoil isn't bad, but it has a pretty good BOOM! I doubt that I am getting more than 1100 fps but there's no deer in Texas that can stand getting hit with one. It sort of crumples them but you can eat right up to the bullet hole.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by CowboyTutt »

McPherson designed a Blue Dot load for me in my 11mm Mauser with a 485 grain bullet. He chose it because it is not position sensitive and ignites easily lowering the risk of a detonation. Mic is also using Blue Dot in 454 Casull and 45 Colt+P with his new 405 grain lead bullet in .452 as a long range plinker in New Mexico at Whittington Center. I take it this load is for Big Nose Kate? I'm willing to bet that Mic would help you out if you asked him. You guys do have a history. I'm guessing you already have his email address. Everything Ray reported from Lyman #50 is accurate, 4198 looks promising but you have to run what you have sometimes in today's world.

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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by yooper2 »

My only adventures with smokeless in the 50-70 involved 4759 and the Lyman government bullet. As I recall it shot fine but I have only shot blackpowder in mine for the last decade or so.

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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Thank you gentlemen,

I've never shot anything but black through my Sharps. I probably should continue that tradition. But I am thinking about Unique.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Another vote for 5744 if you can find some, Scott. It has been good to me in everything from .45-70 to .577 Snider.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Thanks Bill. I appreciate you.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Griff »

I too, like 5744 for my smokeless loads in big BP cases... Once upon a time I asked Accurate for load data for it in several cartridges, and they obliged... everything from .38 spl, 45 Colt, my 40-90, 12 ga, and even .30-30. Although they didn't recommend it in a couple of instances, due to extreme low velocity. I believe their exact words were... "you can do better."

But, here's data directly from Lyman's 4th Ed Cast Bullet Handbook:
50-70-4th Ed Lyman.jpg
And from their 50th Edition Reloading Handbook:
50-70 Lyman 50th.jpg
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Thanks Griff!
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by 6pt-sika »

Sixgun wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:27 pm I load 95% of my dash numbered antique cartridges.....at least 20-25......with 5744....it has a high nitro content which makes it less position sensitive.....in spite of what "they" say, it's still position and temperature sensitive, just not as much. It's burn rate is near 4227 and while it won't set no velocity records, it reliable in any temperature .
I got onto 5744 about 15 years ago after having used 4759 quite a bit . A lot of what I read then claimed 4759 was very position sensitive in the cartridge case and they recommended using something like the stuffing out of a stuffed animal to keep it in position . Then after I’d gotten the stuffing from a couple things the dog had destroyed I read something about the synthetic stuffing leaving a residue ring in the chamber so I never tried it . I think tissue or toilet paper would serve the same purpose . But I never tried anything and to be honest I never noticed any positioning problems with 4759 after shooting several deer from high treestands with the gun pointed downward at a pretty sharp angle . I’ve still got 5744 as well as 4759 but very rarely anymore use either . But then I don’t shoot much big bore cast rifle any longer .
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Sixgun »

6pt-sika wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:41 pm
Sixgun wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:27 pm I load 95% of my dash numbered antique cartridges.....at least 20-25......with 5744....it has a high nitro content which makes it less position sensitive.....in spite of what "they" say, it's still position and temperature sensitive, just not as much. It's burn rate is near 4227 and while it won't set no velocity records, it reliable in any temperature .
I got onto 5744 about 15 years ago after having used 4759 quite a bit . A lot of what I read then claimed 4759 was very position sensitive in the cartridge case and they recommended using something like the stuffing out of a stuffed animal to keep it in position . Then after I’d gotten the stuffing from a couple things the dog had destroyed I read something about the synthetic stuffing leaving a residue ring in the chamber so I never tried it . I think tissue or toilet paper would serve the same purpose . But I never tried anything and to be honest I never noticed any positioning problems with 4759 after shooting several deer from high treestands with the gun pointed downward at a pretty sharp angle . I’ve still got 5744 as well as 4759 but very rarely anymore use either . But then I don’t shoot much big bore cast rifle any longer .
I hear ya 6 point......I've NEVER used fillers of any sort...I know and have seen what they can do...they can ring a chamber. I make one exception with fillers and that's when I'm making "silent loads" using 3 grains of Bullseye.

My guess is I've used up 4-6 eight pounders of 5744 over the years.....it meters fine unlike the barrel shaped 4759. I've cut back a whole.lot in the last several years myself mostly going to jacketed bullets for long range shooting but with the Covid thing I haven't done much of anything in the last year.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by 6pt-sika »

Sixgun wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 11:50 pm
6pt-sika wrote: Sun Mar 07, 2021 9:41 pm
Sixgun wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 1:27 pm I load 95% of my dash numbered antique cartridges.....at least 20-25......with 5744....it has a high nitro content which makes it less position sensitive.....in spite of what "they" say, it's still position and temperature sensitive, just not as much. It's burn rate is near 4227 and while it won't set no velocity records, it reliable in any temperature .
I got onto 5744 about 15 years ago after having used 4759 quite a bit . A lot of what I read then claimed 4759 was very position sensitive in the cartridge case and they recommended using something like the stuffing out of a stuffed animal to keep it in position . Then after I’d gotten the stuffing from a couple things the dog had destroyed I read something about the synthetic stuffing leaving a residue ring in the chamber so I never tried it . I think tissue or toilet paper would serve the same purpose . But I never tried anything and to be honest I never noticed any positioning problems with 4759 after shooting several deer from high treestands with the gun pointed downward at a pretty sharp angle . I’ve still got 5744 as well as 4759 but very rarely anymore use either . But then I don’t shoot much big bore cast rifle any longer .
I hear ya 6 point......I've NEVER used fillers of any sort...I know and have seen what they can do...they can ring a chamber. I make one exception with fillers and that's when I'm making "silent loads" using 3 grains of Bullseye.

My guess is I've used up 4-6 eight pounders of 5744 over the years.....it meters fine unlike the barrel shaped 4759. I've cut back a whole.lot in the last several years myself mostly going to jacketed bullets for long range shooting but with the Covid thing I haven't done much of anything in the last year.
I’ve been moving a lot of stuff recently. Think my last lever gun may hit the block this week . I’ll still have the Ruger #3 444 but I doubt I shoot enough to use up all the stuff I’ve already cast . I’ve got plenty shotgun slugs cast for everything from the 8 down to the 28 . Got plenty buckshot waiting all sizes from #3 up to and including 00000 . I could however cast 500 or so pellets of 000000 and some punkin balls . But that won’t put a dent in my lead supply . I was going to load and shoot a bunch of cast 9mm and 10mm but I’ve already sold the only 9 I had and am contemplating selling my last 10mm as I already sent the Dan Wesson 1911 10mm down the road without firing it . Just about all the rifle stuff I’ve loaded in the last two years has been jacketed 22 , 6mm or 6.5mm . Although I’ve got a 7x57 , 308 , 06 and 338 Federal I’m not ready to send away . The object is to get down to a certain number before I sell the property and move across the pound to the PI . At the moment I have about sixty I can’t stand to part with and plan on keeping even if I am on the other side the world . But there’s still a passle that need to be addressed . I suspect if I sell all I wanna sell at close to what I think they’re worth the house across the pond will be bought and paid for as well as a new HiLux . But this all will most likely take a few years as I don’t wanna flood the market although now is certainly the time to turn them loose .
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Turdyturdy »

Shooters World Buffalo Rifle powder will sub for 5744. After I could no longer get 5744 I ordered Buffalo Rifle from Powder Valley. Use the same amounts of Buffalo Rifle powder as previous 5744 loads in my 38-55 and 45-70. The powder can label has loads printed right on the label.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by 308magtip »

I used XMP5744 in 45-70 with a very small amount on fish tank filter floss to keep powder positioned aganist primer. When I would shoot I always saw a round ring of burning floss exit after bullet.Not sure of charge weight since I sold the Custer era trapdoor carbine to a collector friend.There were no rings or piting in this barrell.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Ray Newman »

Was there a difference between the original 5744 and XMP 5744?

When 5744 first came to market, my local dealer ordered some for his cast bullet customers. I tried it and just wasn't that impressed and went back to loading SR4759.

A few years later when I exhausted my supply of SR4759, so I wanted to try 5744 again. Was told that it was no longer available.

Then I saw that XMP5744 was on the market. Tried it and found that it was position sensitive and in my 45-70 and .45-90 I needed to place about 1/4 sheet of single ply toilet tissue for better ignition and no powder residue in the bore -- the same issues I had with 5744.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I think I'll try the Unique loads this weekend. But I know that I will have to load some more with holy black becasue I will miss the boom.

Thanks for everyone who shared.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Wait, Scott, did you say Bill Bagwell passed away? He sure knew a thing or two about Sharps rifles and loading for BPCR.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Yes, Bill stepped on that rainbow and I will miss one of my favorite hunting companions.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Big ole thumpers! That's a .44 Special Skeeter style load with a 260 gr WFN instead of a Keith bullet next to a .50-70 with the Lyman bullet.

Both loaded with Unique (7.5 and 11 grains respectively).
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by cas »

I need to get a grease groove bullet and come up with a .50-90 load. I've only ever shot BP and paper patched bullets. I used to do it a lot! But now... I haven't fired my Sharps in years. :(
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by CowboyTutt »

A 50-70 or 50-90 has always been one of my dream cartridges although with smokeless! -Tutt
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I have a confession. It’s 2023 and I still haven’t fired a smokeless load through this Sharps .50-70!!!!!

I’m falling down on the job.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by RIDERED350r »

Add me to the list of AA5744 fans for old cartridges. It is working great in my 45-60. I've also tried it in 45-70 as well as 45-90. Good low ES and SD. I have not used fillers of any kind with it.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by 44shooter »

I’m surprised there aren’t loads with the likes of RL7 or 4198. Are these too slow?
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

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44shooter wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:02 pm I’m surprised there aren’t loads with the likes of RL7 or 4198. Are these too slow?
4198 has actually long been a standard for "Smokeless for Black" recipes, 40% of the BP charge weight of 4198 gets you in the ballpark. Don't know how long it's been around, I lifted it from Ross Seyfried.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

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samsi wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:04 pm
44shooter wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:02 pm I’m surprised there aren’t loads with the likes of RL7 or 4198. Are these too slow?
4198 has actually long been a standard for "Smokeless for Black" recipes, 40% of the BP charge weight of 4198 gets you in the ballpark. Don't know how long it's been around, I lifted it from Ross Seyfried.
H4198 has been my go to for BP era rifles for decades. Just switched to IMR4198 as H isn't available anymore, and it seems to be identical. I love 4198 and chamber pressures run lower than BP pressures for equal velocity.
My loads for the .50-70 with a 425 gr. bullet are 30.0 grs 4198. Nice mild load, and good accuracy. Also a 370 gr. bullet with 33.0 grs. 4198 is another good light recoil load.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Griff »

marlinman93 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:04 pm
samsi wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:04 pm
44shooter wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:02 pmI’m surprised there aren’t loads with the likes of RL7 or 4198. Are these too slow?
4198 has actually long been a standard for "Smokeless for Black" recipes, 40% of the BP charge weight of 4198 gets you in the ballpark. Don't know how long it's been around, I lifted it from Ross Seyfried.
H4198 has been my go to for BP era rifles for decades. Just switched to IMR4198 as H isn't available anymore, and it seems to be identical. I love 4198 and chamber pressures run lower than BP pressures for equal velocity.
My loads for the .50-70 with a 425 gr. bullet are 30.0 grs 4198. Nice mild load, and good accuracy. Also a 370 gr. bullet with 33.0 grs. 4198 is another good light recoil load.
Both IMR 4198 & RE-7 are listed for the 50-70 in the 4th Ed Cast Bullet Handbook. It shows the 30 grain charge with the 425 grain bullet as maximum. And is a higher velocity than any other max load listed.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by hfcable »

this powder is fairly new and supposed to be good for these type cartridges. i havent tried it yet, but i plan to use it in my 50/70 and in some 45/70s as well

https://shootersworldpowder.com/buffalo-rifle/
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by marlinman93 »

Griff wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 6:39 pm
marlinman93 wrote: Wed Mar 29, 2023 5:04 pm
samsi wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 7:04 pm
44shooter wrote: Sun Mar 26, 2023 11:02 pmI’m surprised there aren’t loads with the likes of RL7 or 4198. Are these too slow?
4198 has actually long been a standard for "Smokeless for Black" recipes, 40% of the BP charge weight of 4198 gets you in the ballpark. Don't know how long it's been around, I lifted it from Ross Seyfried.
H4198 has been my go to for BP era rifles for decades. Just switched to IMR4198 as H isn't available anymore, and it seems to be identical. I love 4198 and chamber pressures run lower than BP pressures for equal velocity.
My loads for the .50-70 with a 425 gr. bullet are 30.0 grs 4198. Nice mild load, and good accuracy. Also a 370 gr. bullet with 33.0 grs. 4198 is another good light recoil load.
Both IMR 4198 & RE-7 are listed for the 50-70 in the 4th Ed Cast Bullet Handbook. It shows the 30 grain charge with the 425 grain bullet as maximum. And is a higher velocity than any other max load listed.
That's surprising since Lyman data shows 30 grs. of IMR4198 and the Lyman 515141 425 gr. bullet as below maximum. Pressures on my ballistic program are well below Trapdoor levels.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by JFE »

Scott Tschirhart wrote: Wed Mar 03, 2021 9:36 am Guys,

I know that this may sound wrong, but I think I want to try loading for my .50-70 Sharps with smokeless powder.

Has anyone tried this? Its a carbine and I don't need a heavy load, though I think that Shiloh action will take a lot more pressure than I would want to load.

I'm thinking about playing with Trail Boss to begin with.
Not a 50/70 but I developed a sub-sonic load for my 50/90 using Trailboss. I’m using 480gr cast HP’s and recoil is fine. The subsonic load is fun and addictive to use.
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by CowboyTutt »

Scott, I'm guessing a few of us, but McPherson in particular, would be your best bet for help with this. Smokeless can reduce the pressures on your firearm considerably, but you just have to be careful about detonations as well. Mic has been advocating using floral foam for years now to lock the powder charge in place next to the primer in big, unfilled, empty cases for safety and more accuracy. I am sure he knows what he is talking about. I know you already have his number.

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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by piller »

If you do use a filler, be careful. Make sure it is somewhat compressed so that it holds the powder in place with no slipping past the filler. When there are enough grains past the filler, that is what causes the secondary detonation and a bulged ring in the gun. It is actually a second detonation. I have used fillers. Dacron gives a lot of fluff in the area. It has worked well for me when compressed so that the bullet seating is difficult. I had to use my fingers and move the press very slowly.
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Also hear a lot about foam backer rod for filler from the guys running big Nitros. I have never messed with it save for some corn meal in cap and ball revolvers and a pinch of wool in the .577-450 Martini Henry.
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Ysabel Kid
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Scott, you may want to send a PM to KirkD. He may have experimented with this cartridge like so many of the older ones. His info on the .45-120 Sharps was how I found this site! :D
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: .50-70 Gov't question

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Thanks for the tips. I really appreciate the knowledge base we have here.
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