The .450 Adams

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Ysabel Kid
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The .450 Adams

Post by Ysabel Kid »

The .450 Adams

The events in this post actually started late last year, when we were all blissfully unaware of the looming COVID-19 pandemic. In the BC period – “before coronavirus” – the Christmas break represented a pause in my near-constant business travel regiment, and a chance to unwind, catch my breath, and spend quality time with my loved ones and friends.

It was the latter that got me started on this project. While at a Christmas party for the church’s Safety Team at our leader’s home, a group of us were discussing reloading, as he had his set-up out in the garage where we were talking. One of the guys overhead and asked about loading for an antique revolver. Well, as you know for me, that was like baiting the hook and dropping it in the water – with me being the fish!

Turns out that his grandfather-in-law had left him an antique British revolver. He knew it was a .45 caliber round but wasn’t sure of the details. I bit, and bit hard – a mystery and an antique revolver. I told him that if I could get the details there was a reasonable chance I could make ammunition for this gun.

Well, it is a bulldog-type (short barrel/large caliber) revolver firing the .450 Adams (a.k.a. “.450 Revolver” or “.450 Corto”) round, and it was in darn-near MINT condition! Fortunately I had one of these rounds in my cartridge collection, so we verified that this was indeed the right one. As a side note, this was the first center-fire round adopted by the British military – way back in 1868!

So, I did some preliminary research on, of course, the internet, and found that one could manufacturer these rounds using .45 Colt brass. There was another way, using .455 Webley Mk II brass, but I don’t own a firearm shooting that caliber nor the brass for it, whereas I have a lot of .45 Colt brass.

The article called for trimming the length of the brass (to 0.68 – 0.69”) and thinning the rim. Both ended up presenting issues for me. First, the land crank on my Lyman trimmer would not let me go that low. More importantly, thinning the rim caused the primer to stick out, and deepening the primer pocket caused it to open into the main powder chamber of the case (I know I could thin the rim from the top, but that was more work than I wanted to put into it). I assembled one round and hoped for the best – and it wouldn’t chamber.

So, a few months pass and now we are in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic. Being at home, I’ve tried to reload once a day, mainly focusing on some of the more eclectic rounds I need to feed (and that are expensive to purchase). I decided to take another stab at this round. I e-mailed Starline Brass and explained what I was trying to do and asked them if they would send me some brass to experiment with. They contacted me back immediately (despite being extraordinarily busy like every other company related to firearms and ammunition) and asked how many I wanted. I asked for a half dozen pieces of the .455 Webley Mk II brass – and it showed up two days later! (Starline was my favorite brass already, but now they have a customer for life!).

Here is the cartridge from my collection beside an untrimmed .455 Webley Mk II case:
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I also found my drill-chucked arbor for my trimmer. Trimming the cases to length posed no problem whatsoever and I shortened all six without destroying any of them in a matter of minutes.

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Trimmed cases, ready for de-burring:
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The original factory loading was a 225 grain lead bullet over 13 grains of FFFg black powder. I decided to load a bit lighter, for safety, and because I had some 200 grain LRN-FP bullets on hand. So I set that bullet on top of a charge of 12 grains (filled the case; no air gap).

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(you can just see my slippers in this pic – proof that it is me!)

I had to use a different shell holder (can’t remember which one now) than the .45 Colt one, a .45 ACP bullet seating die and a .44 Russian Crimp Die pressed ever-so-lightly to crimp the bullet (the taper crimp of the ACP dies would not keep the bullet from spinning in the case).

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Happy as a lark, I decided to take the process one step further, and created an ammunition box and cardboard sleeve with one of my ammunition labels on it. I know – not technically period correct for this, but “period-like”. Plus it let me play in my workshop and create another label!

Image

I asked him to bring the revolver with him to church the weekend we opened up again, telling him I had made another try and wanted to see if the new round would chamber. I pulled one out and had it in my pocket to test – and sure enough, it went into the cylinder perfectly! I then put it back in the box I made and gave him the whole kit and caboodle. He was one happy camper!

Once more of the restrictions lift, he said he’d let me be the first to fire this (I’m not sure if that is an honor or he just doesn’t want his hand holding the gun if it blows up!). If these work, as I am now sure they will, we have our proof-of-concept and he’ll order a bunch of brass for me to trim down. A 100 pieces should last a lifetime and then some!

Reloading, solving a mystery, getting a great old gun back in service, woodworking and creating a label – what a ton of fun!
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by GunnyMack »

Love it when a plan comes together!!
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Re: The .450 Adams

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Glad you could make it work.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by fordwannabe »

One of the things I love about reloading for old guns is being able to get them back in service. Well done and a nice thing to do.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Rusty »

Nice job Jay. I'd have known those slippers anywhere.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by AmBraCol »

Sixgun sold me a basket case British snub years ago. I loaded a few rounds for it, but never fired it with more than a primer. The approach was much more cautious, crimped a round ball over the charge of FFFg (weight of which escapes me at this date). I"ve never had the chance to find the missing parts for that pistol, just not enough time up north. They are an intriguing little pocket pistol.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by .45colt »

Very Cool. :mrgreen: .
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by gamekeeper »

Excellent post Jay, well done " The Empire Needs You ".....🇬🇧
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by GunnyMack »

GK are you saying the Empire is going to Strike Back? :D
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Re: The .450 Adams

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Well done!
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Re: The .450 Adams

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GunnyMack wrote: Wed May 27, 2020 9:59 am GK are you saying the Empire is going to Strike Back? :D
They want their Jedi returned. Seems that some powerful politician named Tom Menace needs one to fan him.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by piller »

That old Adams blaster should probably be displayed along with a Light Brigade saber.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by GunnyMack »

That has to wait for the next Millennium
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by 2ndovc »

Very cool!!!

jb 8)
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by hondo1892 »

Looks like you did a really nice job on the ammo. I really like the ammo containers too.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Well done, man!
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by BenT »

One of my favorite games. Get an old gun to shoot again. Of course you took it to the next level with cartridge box. :D
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Ray wrote: Fri May 29, 2020 1:44 am In the 1988 version of the hounds of the baskervilles, brett/holmes ' used what looks to be an actual R.C. but hardwicke/watson's webley is ill-cast, being a bit before it's time but we're used to that in films, what with 1892s fighting the cheyene in 1876, etc......
Yep we are! :lol:
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Ysabel Kid »

I don't know why I was thinking about this, but I was, and realized I never updated this post. :oops:

We did end up taking my friend's revolver out in mid-2020, and as promised, he let me take the first shot. The gun worked perfectly, as did the round! :D

Mission accomplished! That was so much fun. Few things as satisfying as bringing a classic firearm back into service. :D
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Swagman »

Fantastic job you did there! I really enjoy loading black powder cartridges although not something as exotic as you did for the .450 Adams, I load 44/40 and 45/70.

I really liked your period cartridge box, during the Covid lockdown down here I have been experimenting with creating similar "period looking" cartridge boxes for my reloads as they look so much better than the usual plastic storage box. I will get some photos of my efforts and post them on this forum.

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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by yooper2 »

Nicely done! This is my favorite sort of reloading project. Adding the cartridge box really classes it up.


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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Thanks for the update, Jay. Sure would love to see a photo of that bulldog. 8)
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Now that is a really great project! Thanks for sharing.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by AmBraCol »

Bill in Oregon wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 8:49 am Thanks for the update, Jay. Sure would love to see a photo of that bulldog. 8)
That's what I was thinking as well. It'd be great to see a pic of the pistola next to the ammo box... has he been able to locate any more brass? is the next question that comes to mind.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by gamekeeper »

I too was wondering why no photo of the revolver and slippers.... :?
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Ysabel Kid »

gamekeeper wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 12:25 pm I too was wondering why no photo of the revolver and slippers.... :?
We're friends, but if I show up at his house in slippers wanting to take pictures, I am pretty sure he'll shoot me with the remaining rounds! :shock:

Starline still has .455 Webley brass on hand. I will have to ask him if he's ready to order more. Problem is the minimum there is 250 cases. Now, I would do that in a heartbeat if the gun were mine. I suspect this will be shot once a decade to maintain its pristine condition.

I will try to get a photo! :D
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Swagman wrote: Mon Nov 08, 2021 11:14 pm I will get some photos of my efforts and post them on this forum.

Cheers
Thanks. I'm looking forward to seeing those. I've made others, so will post them soon too.
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Grizzly347 »

So I just inherited an ENGLISH BULLDOG 450 Adams. Ammo is wicked hard to come across. I visit my dad fairly often throughout the year, he lives in Rock Hill. Can I link up with you next I’m coming into town?!?!
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by cdsx »

Sorry to resurrect an old post, but since this is the only thread I've found addressing my question and the OP is a current and active member, I hope it's forgiven!

I too, am interested in loading for a .450 Adams Bulldog, just acquired. You used what would be my ideal bullet design for this cartridge. The original spec called for bullets of .454/.455", not a common mould size; most American .45's are .452". Is that what you used here? I can find the exact bullet I'm after (200 gr RNFP) in .452 all day long, but the only larger diameter moulds are for the longer .455 Webley. They're hollow-based, too long and heavy, and round-nosed. If I could use .452" bullets, my life would become much easier.
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Re: The .450 Adams

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cdsx wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:29 am Sorry to resurrect an old post, but since this is the only thread I've found addressing my question and the OP is a current and active member, I hope it's forgiven!

I too, am interested in loading for a .450 Adams Bulldog, just acquired. You used what would be my ideal bullet design for this cartridge. The original spec called for bullets of .454/.455", not a common mould size; most American .45's are .452". Is that what you used here? I can find the exact bullet I'm after (200 gr RNFP) in .452 all day long, but the only larger diameter moulds are for the longer .455 Webley. They're hollow-based, too long and heavy, and round-nosed. If I could use .452" bullets, my life would become much easier.
Wow, this is a blast from the past! :) Yes, you can use .452" bullets as I did. Granted, it will not be as accurate, but for the practical distances for this revolver, that is essentially meaningless. There are sources for .454" for CAS shooters. I am not one (always wanted to do it but never enough time), but my understanding is several load lighter-weight projectiles to reduce recoil and increase splits. I have some 160-grain lead pills but decided to go closer to the original loading since the gun was in pristine condition. If it were not but still safe, I would have started with .454" roundball for a cap & ball .44, then worked my way up through the 160-grainer to the 200-grainer. Now, a hollow-based .452" would also work spendidly, but I am not aware of one. Good luck and post on your progress! :D
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Ysabel Kid »

cdsx wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:29 am Sorry to resurrect an old post
Oh, and you never need apologize for resurrecting an old post... especially one of mine! ;)

(of course, I may be the only member of the forum who thinks as such! :lol: )
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Re: The .450 Adams

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Ysabel Kid wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 7:54 am
cdsx wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 3:29 am Sorry to resurrect an old post, but since this is the only thread I've found addressing my question and the OP is a current and active member, I hope it's forgiven!

I too, am interested in loading for a .450 Adams Bulldog, just acquired. You used what would be my ideal bullet design for this cartridge. The original spec called for bullets of .454/.455", not a common mould size; most American .45's are .452". Is that what you used here? I can find the exact bullet I'm after (200 gr RNFP) in .452 all day long, but the only larger diameter moulds are for the longer .455 Webley. They're hollow-based, too long and heavy, and round-nosed. If I could use .452" bullets, my life would become much easier.
Wow, this is a blast from the past! :) Yes, you can use .452" bullets as I did. Granted, it will not be as accurate, but for the practical distances for this revolver, that is essentially meaningless. There are sources for .454" for CAS shooters. I am not one (always wanted to do it but never enough time), but my understanding is several load lighter-weight projectiles to reduce recoil and increase splits. I have some 160-grain lead pills but decided to go closer to the original loading since the gun was in pristine condition. If it were not but still safe, I would have started with .454" roundball for a cap & ball .44, then worked my way up through the 160-grainer to the 200-grainer. Now, a hollow-based .452" would also work spendidly, but I am not aware of one. Good luck and post on your progress! :D
That was quick! Thanks for getting back to me. Between me and a friend, we've posted this on a few forums, but no one's been beating down our doors with answers, so this is most welcome. Obviously, bore slugging on an older weapon will be the final decider here, but a couple of interesting suggestions have been offered. First, gently opening up the mould to .454/.455". This would destroy the lube grooves, of course, but I was planning on powdercoating anyway, so no grooves rerquired. Second, the powdercoat itself: Someone has suggested that the PC thickness times 2 might be just enough to make the difference of only a couple of thou on the diameter. I'm not really sure how significant the PC thickness is to the fit in the bore. Either way, these might enable me to get the profile I want in an off the shelf mould.

The other point that catches my eye is the use of the .44 Russian factory crimp die, which I would have disregarded as too small to even fit, not to mention too long to engage the stubby cartridge (by a mere 300 thou!). Did you need to make some sort of adapter for the shell holder to get it up far enough in the die? It sounds like lifting someone up by the ankles so he can reach up and change a light bulb!
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Re: The .450 Adams

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Well now, new developments! Someone has pointed me to a company called Accurate Molds (yes, yes, I know it's common knowledge to all of you, but I'm new to this). He's so flexible, it's basically moulds made to order. He offers exactly what I want, for whatever diameter I want, in my choice of aluminum, brass, or iron! All I have to do at this point is figure out which metal I want it in and see who I know on your side of the razor wire that I can prevail upon to take delivery for me, then repackage, re-label, then ship it on. I could be turning out shiny new .450 cartridges by spring.

I still have to decipher the .44 Russian crimp die business, but one step at a time. I've been working on adapting the .45 Colt Collet Crimp Die for .455 Webley and .45 ACP/Autorim for the big Webley; maybe I can do the same for the .450.
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Re: The .450 Adams

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yooper2 wrote: Tue Nov 09, 2021 5:49 am Nicely done! This is my favorite sort of reloading project. Adding the cartridge box really classes it up.
Yep...!

"...I e-mailed Starline Brass and explained what I was trying to do and asked them if they would send me some brass to experiment with. They contacted me back immediately (despite being extraordinarily busy like every other company related to firearms and ammunition) and asked how many I wanted. I asked for a half dozen pieces of the .455 Webley Mk II brass – and it showed up two days later! (Starline was my favorite brass already, but now they have a customer for life!)..."

Now THAT is really impressive, especially when it's like pulling teeth to get them to run a batch of 218 Bee, or 32-20...!
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Re: The .450 Adams

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If you're loading for an old original British revolver in this caliber, I'd not suggest powder coating as the lube on a normal bullet helps with the powder fouling. I'd MOST DEFINITELY not recommend using smokeless powder in these old poppers. The pressure spike is different from the good old black powder and the quality of the steel was not the same back the as now.

Accurate molds is a great way to get the bullet you want. Let him know what alloy you plan to use and what the final diameter should be. I'd suggest using pure lead, much easier on the barrel and such, again note the quality of steel used back then. The idea is to stress the piece as little as possible, black powder, black powder lube and pure lead are the way to go to accomplish this goal.

Good luck on your project!
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Re: The .450 Adams

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AmBraCol wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:33 pm If you're loading for an old original British revolver in this caliber, I'd not suggest powder coating as the lube on a normal bullet helps with the powder fouling. I'd MOST DEFINITELY not recommend using smokeless powder in these old poppers. The pressure spike is different from the good old black powder and the quality of the steel was not the same back the as now.

Accurate molds is a great way to get the bullet you want. Let him know what alloy you plan to use and what the final diameter should be. I'd suggest using pure lead, much easier on the barrel and such, again note the quality of steel used back then. The idea is to stress the piece as little as possible, black powder, black powder lube and pure lead are the way to go to accomplish this goal.

Good luck on your project!
Unfortunately, black powder is not an option for me. The rules here make it a major headache to store, since, unlike smokeless powder, they class it as an explosive and pile on a whole separate set of regulations. Considering our current government up here just two days ago enacted a total ban on buying/selling/transferring handguns (and we all know where this is going, right?), those of us with our (currently exempted) antiques are keeping our heads w-a-a-a-y down. I'm not anxious to make myself vulnerable to a whole new set of regulations that would give the door-kickers an excuse to come calling.
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Re: The .450 Adams

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AmBraCol wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:33 pm The idea is to stress the piece as little as possible, black powder, black powder lube and pure lead are the way to go to accomplish this goal.
+ infinity!
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Re: The .450 Adams

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cdsx wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 10:32 am The other point that catches my eye is the use of the .44 Russian factory crimp die, which I would have disregarded as too small to even fit, not to mention too long to engage the stubby cartridge (by a mere 300 thou!). Did you need to make some sort of adapter for the shell holder to get it up far enough in the die? It sounds like lifting someone up by the ankles so he can reach up and change a light bulb!
None of my .45-caliber crimp dies seem to do the trick. The bullet still rotated freely in the case. So I applied a very light touch and the .44 Russian die did the trick. Like you, I am not sure how, given the vast difference in the bullet diameters. But it worked!

I have been considering Accurate Molds for a .38-caliber (.358") hollow-based LRN to shoot in a conversion cylinder for my .36-caliber (.375") Colt 1851 clone.

Keep us posted on your project! :)
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by AmBraCol »

cdsx wrote: Sun Oct 23, 2022 10:15 am
AmBraCol wrote: Sat Oct 22, 2022 6:33 pm If you're loading for an old original British revolver in this caliber, I'd not suggest powder coating as the lube on a normal bullet helps with the powder fouling. I'd MOST DEFINITELY not recommend using smokeless powder in these old poppers. The pressure spike is different from the good old black powder and the quality of the steel was not the same back the as now.

Accurate molds is a great way to get the bullet you want. Let him know what alloy you plan to use and what the final diameter should be. I'd suggest using pure lead, much easier on the barrel and such, again note the quality of steel used back then. The idea is to stress the piece as little as possible, black powder, black powder lube and pure lead are the way to go to accomplish this goal.

Good luck on your project!
Unfortunately, black powder is not an option for me. The rules here make it a major headache to store, since, unlike smokeless powder, they class it as an explosive and pile on a whole separate set of regulations. Considering our current government up here just two days ago enacted a total ban on buying/selling/transferring handguns (and we all know where this is going, right?), those of us with our (currently exempted) antiques are keeping our heads w-a-a-a-y down. I'm not anxious to make myself vulnerable to a whole new set of regulations that would give the door-kickers an excuse to come calling.
If I'm reading that right, you live above the 49th Parallel on the North American Continent... I feel for you. Even here in Coffee Country where they've had a civil war over the past five decades the sale of black powder is still allowed. Definitely keep your eyes on the pressure side of things. Since smokeless is your only option then the use of powder coat might be a possibility. I really don't know how it affects pressure, if it does or does not or whatever. Something to think about as well. I hope you keep us in the loop as you work your way through this. I'd love to have the chance to do something similar. In the meantime it's fun living vicariously through others experiences in the area.
Paul - in Pereira


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Ysabel Kid
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Ysabel Kid »

Our resident expert on smokeless powder loads duplicating (or coming as close as possible) to black powder loads is KirkD - a fellow Canadian! :) Hopefully he will see this post. If not, try to PM him. I know one of his favorite smokeless powders is 5744, but I think he has used it mainly in rifle calibers.
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Malamute
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Malamute »

I wouldnt sweat the black vs smokeless thing, its overstating it somewhat to say smokeless has harsher pressure curves as a blanket statement. We mow have pretty good pressure tested info on which powders have similar or even milder pressure curves compared to black. I will see if i can find that.

Edit: Found one discussion about comparative pressure curves, there is one or more others I believe. Look for Kirk D and W30WCF posts in particular.

https://www.levergunscommunity.org/view ... 0&start=20

Another likely place to ask if you havent already is the cast boolit forum, they have pretty comprehensive experiene with a wide variety of calibers and types of cast loads.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-

Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Bill in Oregon »

I was thinking Trail Boss—as light a load as is safe. Such a great thread…😎
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cdsx
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by cdsx »

My apologies to all who responded after my last post on October, who may have thought I had lost interest and was ignoring their suggestions. For whatever reason, I received no notifications of these posts and I assumed my enquiry had gone dormant, added to which, computer difficulties have made my internet access sporadic. Since having little results anywhere else, I was reviewing my information to date and found there was fresh material I had not yet read. I'm going to review the extensive thread recommended above over the next couple of days, and I have also forwarded a personal message. I'll report back when I have more news. Thanks to all who are assisting, and to all I wish a happy and successful New Year!
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Ysabel Kid »

cdsx wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:15 am My apologies to all who responded after my last post on October, who may have thought I had lost interest and was ignoring their suggestions. For whatever reason, I received no notifications of these posts and I assumed my enquiry had gone dormant, added to which, computer difficulties have made my internet access sporadic. Since having little results anywhere else, I was reviewing my information to date and found there was fresh material I had not yet read. I'm going to review the extensive thread recommended above over the next couple of days, and I have also forwarded a personal message. I'll report back when I have more news. Thanks to all who are assisting, and to all I wish a happy and successful New Year!
Happy New Year cdsx! :D
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

This was a very entertaining thread! I commented on it years ago and forgot about it.

Thanks for the reminder!
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Re: The .450 Adams

Post by AmBraCol »

Scott Tschirhart wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2024 6:21 am This was a very entertaining thread! I commented on it years ago and forgot about it.

Thanks for the reminder!
I was wondering who brought back the post that was brought back... apparently there's more interest in the old caliber than one would assume from the obsoleteness thereof.
Paul - in Pereira


"He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion." -- John Witherspoon

http://www.paulmoreland.com
http://www.pistolpackingpreachers.us
http://www.precisionandina.com
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