"TOY" guns

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Tue May 27, 2008 9:55 pm

I grew up with law enforcement/military relatives and shot BB guns at my friends, even though I knew better. I also shot Roman Candles and Bottle Rockets at my pals. Then Laser Tag was invented and I couldnâ€™t afford it so we continued to shoot BB guns at one another. I remember reading about a â€œlaser-tagâ€

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:02 am

You can't do anything about the inanimate objects. Its the individuals. People can make fake guns look real and real guns look fake. If someone is so oblivious as to wave something like that around in public with no clue as to the potential consequences, well... An adult should know better and if a kid's doing that, the parents aren't paying attention. I guess that's a symptom of our fixation on TV, movies, video games, etc. instead of real life. Not a good answer to your question, but that's my take on the issue.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:16 am

I don't know the answer. But... having read of training accidents where officers have shot one another in mock combat... it's not the weapon or training tool, it's the care one uses in its use.

We trained in defensive maneuvers against armed assailants using real weapons. However, each such training session was begun with all weapons being checked by more than the owner to ensure no live ammo was available. And, that I'm aware of, we had no accidents during such training sessions in the department's history.

Why was this? Our training officers instilled in us the need to separate training from real life. Somewhat later in my career, it was decided to train all officers in take-away methods vs. the prior method. My military and police training was all deadly force. The silly trainer (hired gun so to speak) picked on me as the oldest guy in the class. Using a water pistol, he demonstrated his method, then asked me to take the water pistol before he shot me. Just before he could fire, I flipped him onto his back and flooded his chest with water. I was asked to leave the class. I had no intention of doing that maneuver, I was thinking the whole time, "take the gun, take the gun..." But, training will out.

We live in a dangerous world. There are no guarantees. At one time in her life, my wife was adamant that no child of hers would play with toy guns; that didn't happen, as I told her, you'll either stiffle his need to safely act out and as I believe that cause irreparable harm, I couldn't countenance that avenue. And believe that we'd have lost in the end, for he will seek out friends and associates that had toy guns and play with them behind our backs. Which would you prefer, him hiding and lying to you about his play, or supervise and direct the same? When he expressed a desire to fire real weapons, I supervised his learning.

I have to say, it's all about attitude and training. The irresponsible part is where some choose to "play" and under what conditions. I watched a Department (city) fall into disarray and become a bigger liability than the city could afford due to one such incident in which an 8 year old boy was killed by an officer. A neighbor had called to report a prowler, when in fact, she knew the child was there alone awaiting his single mom's return from work (latch-key kid if you're familiar with the term).

As for adults, they are often their own worst enemies. They are... well... just how to put this nicely... well... let me see... does STUPID to the nth degree seem to harsh. Yes? Well, actually, that is putting it nicely. I always told our trainees, expect John Q. Public to do the most assinine, stupidest thing you can imagine, and you'll seldom be surprised, for he will meet your expectations; sometimes exceeding them.

We can only control our own actions, try to learn from the mistakes of others, improve our own awareness, and try to teach those close to us.

God bless, for your question shows the nature of your heart, but I fear there is no answer, at least I have found none.

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:19 am

Well, I have stayed awake far longer than I should haveâ€¦and far less that I need to in order to get back on track for my next two mid-shifts. Iâ€™m watching old westerns and posting lame opinions. I know that â€œpeople can make fake guns look real and real guns look fake,â€

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:24 am

Griff, so far I only have responded to Claybob's post. I will have to re-read your post before I comment on yours. It is late and I am bed-bound...

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:37 am

[quote="Irish_Cop"]Well, I have stayed awake far longer than I should haveâ€¦and far less that I need to in order to get back on track for my next two mid-shifts. Iâ€™m watching old westerns and posting lame opinions. I know that â€œpeople can make fake guns look real and real guns look fake,â€

kirkwood · Post by **kirkwood** » Wed May 28, 2008 1:18 am

I find it hard to believe that any airsoft replica weighs as much as the real deal and that a person can't tell from weight alone that something is not right. My handguns weigh in around 31 to 35 oz, and that is unloaded. I'm looking here are some weights for airsoft pistols at an internet site and they are in the 8 to 10 oz range for replicas of my guns. That's about a 4-fold difference when you add in the ammo. How could someone experienced with guns not tell the difference?

kirkwood · Post by **kirkwood** » Wed May 28, 2008 1:21 am

By the way, I don't mean to take away from the important point you were making concerning the appearance of the replica from a distance. That is a concern I share with you. I was just commenting on the police officer who couldn't tell he was holding a real gun.

Slick · Post by **Slick** » Wed May 28, 2008 2:20 am

My rule is that there is no such thing as a "toy gun"... That said, I own a UTG-96 (airsoft) rifle that after hitting a few times on the side of an obove-ground pool -actually penetrated the steel!

It sails a .28gr pellet (.12 is standard) over 420 FPS...

These things may be advertized as "toys" - but they are far more powerful than any sane person may expect. Here my UTG-96 (that popped sheet metal)->

Don't laugh - even though I know the urge is strong...

That all said - I bought the gun to acquire "trigger-time" in my back yard so I wouldn't have to drive out $48 of gas to visit the range...

Post by **Hobie** » Wed May 28, 2008 6:49 am

I'll give you guys another point of view...

How about the idea that anyone who inappropriately uses one of these "toys" to intimidate, etc. (and all their kin) should accept the consequences of such action. Such should be true in the use of anything, tools, vehicles, chemicals, medicines, etc... It is an individual's responsibility to act responsibly and if they are removed from society either by judgement in court or through their demise, self-inflicted or otherwise, well, that's how it is. How about the idea that we're here in this life to learn to act/think appropriately, to excercise SELF-control and perhaps to help others to learn such but not to CONTROL one another.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed May 28, 2008 7:37 am

Hobie -

Bingo!

With freedom comes responsibility. Our nation, as a whole, seems to forget that point and just be obsessed on the "freedom" part. My kids have a lot of toy guns (things that don't shoot anything). They have some "semi-toy" guns (airsoft, paintball, and air weapons). And, as you all know, they have the real McCoy's. I control access to the latter group completely, and to part of the middle group (the BB/pellet guns, the paintball, and the stronger airsoft); they are allowed to play with the others (nerf guns, and non-shooting guns) at will. IC and I exchanged some PM's on this topic before, and it made me take a look at their "arsenal". I pulled anything that looked too realistic - or had broken the orange tip - from being played with outside unless I am with them.

Either way, I don't allow the kids to take their toy guns outside of the yard. Again, it is parental responsibility. I am not willing to loose one LEO over the hestitation that may be caused by this kind of situation, and I certainly don't want to loose my kids or anyone elses' - or have an LEO have to live with the guilt of having to shoot a kid "armed" with one of these. Still, balancing freedom with responsibility will solve this issue. One ounce of common sense, another of potential punishment, and a full dose of responsibility on all parties will do the trick nicely!

Kirkwood - I have a 1911 airsoft that is darn near the weight of the real thing. Other than the orange plastic tip, you'd never know unless you had it in your hand to inspect. This is not a toy...

Texican · Post by **Texican** » Wed May 28, 2008 9:04 am

1) Duracoat is paint; high tech, but paint. They should resist efforts that would run them out of business. Anyone who would paint a gun for 'nefarious' purposes could just as easily use Krylon and I doubt that will be banned.

2) Guns don't fire themselves. Negligent discharges are just that: negligent. I'm glad no one was hurt.

More laws will not solve anything.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed May 28, 2008 10:09 am

Hobie wrote:I'll give you guys another point of view...

How about the idea that anyone who inappropriately uses one of these "toys" to intimidate, etc. (and all their kin) should accept the consequences of such action. Such should be true in the use of anything, tools, vehicles, chemicals, medicines, etc... It is an individual's responsibility to act responsibly and if they are removed from society either by judgement in court or through their demise, self-inflicted or otherwise, well, that's how it is. How about the idea that we're here in this life to learn to act/think appropriately, to excercise SELF-control and perhaps to help others to learn such but not to CONTROL one another.

+2

I've never been keen on "toy" guns or "shooting people games" that weren't extremely controlled (i.e. paintball/lasertag/MILES arenas).

I teach kids EARLY what shooting things means - then they don't get toys, they get the real thing.

I know Cowboys 'n Injuns/Cops & Robbers was de rigueur back in the day, but then we didn't have jumpy anti-gun loons calling out the police either, or kids who would even consider pointing their capgun at a cop.

It ain't the toy, it's the training. AFAIC if an adult gets shot for screwing around with one - it's Darwin in action. And if a Kid gets shot for screwing around with one... the "parents" should be shot too. Stupid people shouldn't breed.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Wed May 28, 2008 10:34 am

Thanks Hobie, that's the point I was driving toward, and just got a little tired.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Wed May 28, 2008 10:41 am

Hobie, you got it in one!

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Wed May 28, 2008 10:43 am

+3 on hobie's take

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Wed May 28, 2008 11:03 am

We control our own envirement and family. Unfortunatly we cant control how others teach or dont teach their kids.
I remember once as a teenager over 50 years ago I was in a teenage malt shop hangout when a fool pulled a plastic toy colt sa out and was waveing it around. At a few feet it looked like the real deal. The owner of the hangout came down on him like a ton of bricks.
It is a circumstance that I suspect will be around in 200 years from now too. No easy fix for all to come. I read where elmer keith once wrote that he didnt allow any toy guns in his family.

505stevec · Post by **505stevec** » Wed May 28, 2008 11:51 am

I once got two 20 year old guys indicted on a charge of Aggravated Assault w/ a Deadly Weapon.

The gun was a Paintball Gun. The Victim was a 6 year old boy that was walking to the post office for his mother. These two drove up beside the boy and shot him 7 times from about 15 feet. At first the Grand Jury was skeptical because it was not a "real gun" They did however indict them when the warning label "May cause injury of death if not properly used" ON that these two boys learned that it was not a "toy" gun. Anything that propels a projectile is considered a weapon IMHO. That being said. Why add more legislation. Just hold accountable those that would misuse the "toy". The officer that had the A.D. with his "Toy" should have been disciplined.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:30 pm

505stevec wrote:". The officer that had the A.D. with his "Toy" should have been disciplined.

Could have turned out worse, he could have been covering a partners back with that "Toy" and got them both killed!

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:46 pm

I agree with everything said about training, the laws and people's own responsibilities. But, that doesn't stop an LEO or armed citizen from shooting a kid. In this day and age it's been proven over and over that kids are engaging as active shooters and with that in mind kids playing with realistic looking firearms present a deadly equation to LEO's and armed citizens.

A couple of years ago there was an incident in our county spot on about this problem. Dispatch received a call of an adult male pointing a shotgun at people. LE responded, found the guy and ordered him to put down the shotgun. He pointed the shotgun at them and he was killed. It was a toy shotgun that was full size and life like in every detail. I know, the guy got what he deserved, or did he. He was developmentally disabled and had like a six year old mentality. Now the LEO's that shot him have to live with that the rest of their lives. Right, or wrong.

Another issue with this toy gun thing and airsoft replicas is the opposite situation. Bad guys have started painting the front of their real firearms orange and lime green so they purposely portray to LEO's they have a toy gun. Shoot or don't shoot?

Even if you're eventually found to be innocent of any crime. Through a criminal trial or no informational filed. You still have to live with all the mind games, public perception, possible civil trial and the rest of the garbage that comes with shooting someone. Even a justifiable shooting has ruined many a person.

I thank God every day I'm working that I haven't had to shoot someone. I've came so close so many times but luckily it hasn't happened.

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Wed May 28, 2008 12:49 pm

I wish I had saved a old cartoon I once seen. It showed 2 guys standing by their car, pulling out their rifles to go deer hunting. The one guy is looking at his that has a cork hanging out of the barrel and saying, "but junior took this to the church picnic this morning!"

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Wed May 28, 2008 9:19 pm

[quote="Irish_Cop"]I donâ€™t know where I stand on the matter except to say that red, orange, pink, yellow, green, blue, and purple should be relegated to TOYS and gunstock colors such as brown, grey and black should be reserved for â€œrealâ€

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Thu May 29, 2008 3:28 pm

I don't think Irish Cop almost shot someone for playing cops and robbers or cowboys and indians. And yes, times have changed- alot.
It is very common for gangs to use 9,10, 11 year old members to commit felonies and homicides. I had a 9 year old attempt to rob a 7-11 with a sawed off shotgun. He said he would have killed the clerk but couldn't load the shotgun - 12 ga shells for a 20 ga shotgun.
Kids are kids, but I think back in those days, people had much better parenting skills and took interest in their childrens lives.
So if a kid or anyone points a gun at you, you're saying you're going to give him the "benefit of the doubt" just in case it's fake ?!? That is a very deadly mindset to have. The reality is most cops would probably hesitate with a kid and it will turn out fine, it's the other instances when it's for real that things get tragic. This past year I haved been astounded at the number of children we have contacted bringing weapons to school to retaliate for playground fights. I'm talking about 9-12 year olds. Most were on psych meds which may be a contibuting factor, I don't know.
As far as the color issue of weapons, I don't think there is a real solution other than common sense. I saw a bulletin for a company selling multi colored guns and semi auto rifles. These were very bright greens, orange camo, pink, blue... It is a sad situation but times have changed and more and more children commit serious crimes to the point juvenile facilities turn them away unless it's a violent crime, (burglaries, GTA's, pursuits, don't count). Parents just come pick them up and wait for court dates.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu May 29, 2008 3:48 pm

Well here's the problem. If I were a fellow who wanted to carry a real firearm in public, but have everyone think it was a toy, I'd dress it up exactly the same way the toys are, complete with blaze orange barrel tip, etc. Now here's the situation. A 17-year old, disreputable teenager is confronted by a LEO, and the 17-year old pulls out a 'toy' out from under his hoodie and swings it toward you. You have a fraction of second to make your decision ..... is this a toy, or is it a real firearm made up to look like a toy? You see the problem: if one cannot tell for sure in a tricky situation where every fraction of a second counts, the difference between a toy made to look exactly like a firearm and a firearm made to look like a toy, then one is right back to where one started.

The responsibility for pointing a firearm/toy at another person must lie with the pointer. In my opinion, a LEO who decides that every gun that looks like a toy is a toy, is a dead man.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu May 29, 2008 3:55 pm

KirkD wrote:...
The responsibility for pointing a firearm/toy at another person must lie with the pointer. ...

+1. Darwin in action. Capping someone who draws on you is not a "enforcement" issue, it's a survival issue.

On toy guns...

I had a buddy in the EOD who told me once that if I ever came at him with a squirt gun he'd snipe me from as far away as possible.

He knew me that well... either that or he was remembering some of my white papers on prussic acid...

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu May 29, 2008 10:25 pm

kimwcook wrote: Bad guys have started painting the front of their real firearms orange and lime green so they purposely portray to LEO's they have a toy gun.

As most of you know, I am extremely-dedicated towards freedom, and will try to err on the side of allowing people as much freedom as possible. I also would love to see fewer laws, not more.

That being said, there ought to be a law against someone deliberately painting the muzzle of a real gun to look like a toy. This is very different from personalizing the color-scheme of a gun. The former can only be someone trying to deceive another for ill purposes, and should be in and of itself an additional number of years in the slammer guaranteed.

Common sense - again, everyone, young and old, needs to take responsibility for their actions. But given the gravity of this - when an LEO has a split second to decide - someone trying to delay that "shoot" decision must be assumed to be doing so in order for them to shoot the LEO first...

Iron_Marshal · Post by **Iron_Marshal** » Fri May 30, 2008 9:29 pm

Well, first, Iâ€™d like to thank you all for your posts.

I am NOT in favor of MORE laws. I am VERY concerned about toy guns resembling real guns.

As was previously stated, the reverse is the real dangerâ€¦REAL guns being dressed up as TOY guns. As depicted in innumerable Westerns, the fastest person to draw may be the one that walks away alive. If there is hesitation on the part of the officer then he may DIE. I am not trying to justify shooting children. Goshâ€¦Who even thought that was what this post was about?

Like Hobie and others have said, personal responsibility is the key. However, when riff-raff that does not believe in personal responsibility pulls a real gun made to resemble a toy then officers may be killed by hesitating because the weapon looked like a toy. This was not as big an issue in the past, as is being portrayed by some posters ,because realistic shock bright toy guns did not exist. Yeah, water guns existed, but the new airsoft pistols are identical in appearanceâ€¦and in weightâ€¦contrary to the belief of some posters.

Yesâ€¦true TOY airsoft pistols exist. They are made of clear plastic and must be cocked after every shot. I own a gas operated airsoft pistol that uses the gas to cycle the slide like a real semi-auto. It weighs the same as a real gun, is the same color, and cannot easily be distinguished from itâ€™s exact brother duplicate. I also own a battery operated M-4, fully automatic airsoft rifle that is accurate to 50 yards. It is identical in weight, color, and heft to a collapsible stock M-16, only it shoots 6mm plastic bbâ€™s. I know of MANY airsoft toys that are identical to their real counterparts. Go visit your local paintball/airsoft store to see for yourself.

Personal responsibility is the key, I agree. But in a world where millions live on the dole and take no responsibility for their actions this is not going to happen. I donâ€™t want an innocent personâ€™s blood on my conscience, but I am going home at the end of my shift.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Fri May 30, 2008 9:37 pm

Irish_Cop wrote: I donâ€™t want an innocent personâ€™s blood on my conscience, but I am going home at the end of my shift.

That is what we all pray for - that you and every LEO goes home safe and healthy at the end of each shift.

"TOY" guns

"TOY" guns

Re: "TOY" guns