POLITICS - looks like FLDS "victim" was a hoax

[sore shoulder]

Looks like a serial hoaxer made the original calls. Also, reports from friends have in the area say this whole thing was nothing more than a denominational war conducted by the local Baptist cult.

So El Mac, what say you about those pedophiles?

Seems like they should have verified this first, it seem many of us agreed that they did not have probable cause from just an anonymous phone call and this was just an excuse to carry out a raid based on religious prejudices and misguided public opinions.


http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/15 ... etail.html

Woman May Be Involved In Raid Of Polygamist Sect
Woman Arrested On False Reporting Charges

POSTED: 8:11 pm MDT April 17, 2008
UPDATED: 9:24 pm MDT April 17, 2008


DENVER -- A Colorado Springs woman was arrested on charges of false reporting to authorities and is being investigated for her alleged involvement in the call that tipped authorities off to possible abuse at a Texas polygamist compound.

Police said they arrested 33-year-old Rozita Swinton at her home on Wednesday.

The Texas Rangers were in Colorado Springs Wednesday as part of their investigation involving the compound in Texas. They left and have not filed any charges on Swinton, said Colorado Springs police spokesman Lt. Skip Arms.

Arms said he could not discuss any aspects of the Texas case. The affidavit for the Colorado Springs case has been sealed so details cannot be released, he said.

Call7 Investigators reported this is not be the first time Swinton has been arrested on charges of making false reports to authorities. According to KRDO, the charge against Swinton was made in connection to calls received by police in February indicating she was 13 years old and trapped in a basement.

Watch 7NEWS at 10 p.m. for a live report.

[sore shoulder]

Notice the "claims" being made by an investigator now. Again, no evidence. Also, now it seems underage girls having sex or getting pregnant is a problem only if you live in a religous seperatist setting. If you are in the inner city it's no problem, they just send you a check so the baby-daddy can buy more crack.





http://www.denverpost.com/ci_8965600?source=rss


Springs call may be linked to Texas raid
By Joey Bunch
The Denver Post
Article Last Updated: 04/17/2008 10:18:19 PM MDT


Prank calls from a 33-year-old Colorado Springs woman may be linked to the raid at a West Texas polygamist compound, Colorado Springs Police say.

Rozita Swinton was arrested at her home Wednesday evening on charges of false reporting in a local case, but Texas Rangers were present for the arrest, Colorado Springs police said Thursday night.

ABC News reported on its website Thursday night that former Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints member Flora Jessop, who operates a rescue mission for teenage girls trying to escape the sect, told Texas authorities she had gotten calls from a girl claiming to be an abused member named Sarah.

A girl with that same name made the original calls for help to a San Angelo, Texas, hotline, sparking the raid in which 416 children were taken into protective custody.

Jessop told ABC News that the Texas Rangers directed her to record the calls and the Texas Rangers traced those calls to Colorado Springs.

Though announcing the Rangers' involvement, Colorado Springs Police declined to elaborate on the Texas link, and records into Swinton's Colorado Springs case have been sealed by a judge.

Colorado Springs Police said Swinton's Wednesday arrest was on local charges involving calls in which she claimed to be an abused child being held in a basement.

The Texas case drawing national attention began two weeks ago when an unidentified female called an abuse hot line, saying she was a 16-year-old sect member who had been beaten and raped by her 50-year-old husband.

A judge ordered the search of the polygamous compound in Eldorado, 40 miles south of San Angelo, but have never found the caller.

Texas officials say they believe the child does exist, but they have not been able to find her.

The state took legal custody of 416 children, who are being housed at two sites in San Angelo, about 200 miles west of San Antonio. Another 139 women voluntarily left the compound operated by the Mormon splinter group.

Meanwhile, a court hearing Thursday in Texas descended into farce, with hundreds of lawyers in two packed buildings shouting objections and the judge struggling to maintain order.

The case — one of the biggest, most convoluted child-custody hearings in U.S. history — presented an extraordinary spectacle: big-city lawyers in suits and mothers in 19th-century, pioneer-style dresses, all packed into a courtroom and a nearby auditorium connected by video.

At issue was an attempt by the state of Texas to strip the parents of custody and place the children in foster homes because of evidence they were being physically and sexually abused or in imminent danger of abuse by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a renegade Mormon splinter group suspected of forcing underage girls into marriage with older men.

As many feared, the proceedings turned into something of a circus — and a painfully slow one.

By evening, only three witnesses had testified, including state child welfare investigator Angie Voss, who said women may have had children when they were minors, some as young as age 13.

At least five girls who are younger than 18 are now pregnant or have children, Voss said.

No decisions had been made on the fate of any of the youngsters, and the hearing was to continue Friday.

Additional details on life at the ranch began to emerge as Voss testified.

She said that if one of the men fell out of favor with the FLDS, his wives and children would be reassigned to other men. The children would then identify the new man as their father. Voss said that contributed to the problem of identifying children's family links and their ages.

Texas District Judge Barbara Walther struggled to keep order as she faced 100 lawyers in her 80-year-old Tom Green County courtroom and several hundred more participating over a grainy video feed from an ornate City Hall auditorium two blocks away.

The hearing disintegrated quickly into a barrage of shouted objections and attempts to file motions, with lawyers for the children objecting to objections made by the parents' attorneys.


The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[homefront]

If true, what she did was EVIL because it impacted children in a very big way.

[sore shoulder]

If true, what she did was EVIL because it impacted children in a very big way.

Not to mention the abuse of a ratty old piece of yellow paper and the mob mentality it evoked.

[Hobie]

I have to marvel at the changing mores of society, in part referenced by Frank. It is a fascinating cultural change. In my genealogical research I've found that it was once not only common, but sometimes the majority of marriages occured when the woman was 15 or younger and the man was 22 or perhaps older and had acquired means of support. It was actually unusual in the families I've researched to find poor folks getting married young, rather these would be middle class with farms or a railroad job doing this and often the couples would have met at church (including Baptist congregations). However, VERY few indeed had children out of wedlock (although marriages might be recorded much after the fact).

Now, kids as young as 12 are doing it in the class room and while pregnancy for unweds rates seem to have dropped it seems more a function of liberal use of birth control and abortion. Now, the CPS in various states will go after people who marry young but do very little to/with/for those who engage in unmarried relations.

What really bothers me is how the warrant was served and that there may have been no valid probable cause to support it. Still, the machine is grinding on...

BTW, if someone should want to vent to me in a PM or e-mail, one way or the other, feel free. I will keep all such communications in confidence.

We were talking about this the other day and were wondering what Jerry Lee Lewis might say (Great Balls of Fire was playing on the CD player). The comment was made that he'd only married one 13 year old and she was smarter than him anyway. I just thought that was funny...

[Old Ironsights]

Something Pretty Ugly: Cults and Bill Maher
By Mike Gallagher
Friday, April 18, 2008

Imagine what it would be like to feel safe and secure in your home. Suddenly, armed law enforcement officials, carrying assault weapons and wearing body armor, come roaring into your house saying that an allegation of child abuse was made and your children must be pried from their mothers’ loving arms and held by the state, possibly even being shuttled into foster care, all while you tried to figure out how this could have possibly happened.

I just returned from San Angelo and Eldorado, Texas where I took my radio show to cover the bizarre story of the showdown between the State of Texas and the members of a peculiar polygamist sect called the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

This sect lives, works and worships on a giant tract of land called the YFZ Ranch which sits in the middle of nowhere in West Texas. Everything about this group is odd: the way they talk, their belief in the illegal act of men taking multiple wives, pretty much everything about their lifestyle is downright unusual.

But I’m hoping we haven’t gotten to a point in America where a group of people who worship and live in ways we don’t particularly agree with or understand can have their children ripped from their homes by the state.

Before you accuse me of defending child molestation or abuse, let me assure you that I fully expect the authorities to prosecute, convict and jail anyone who has committed the heinous act of sexually harming a child.

However, doesn’t something feel ominous and wrong about the way the authorities have handled this?

Let’s examine a few pertinent facts. So far, not a single person has been arrested and charged with anything. Evidently, a female who claimed to be a 16 year old member of this group made several phone calls to an abuse hotline claiming that a man named Dale Barlow, her spiritual “husbandâ€

[Blackhawk]

Bill Maher, now there's one guy I'd like to get locked in room with, for oh say about 5-10 minutes. I can't stand that guy.

Johnny

[Old Ironsights]

Bill Maher, now there's one guy I'd like to get locked in room with, for oh say about 5-10 minutes. I can't stand that guy.

Johnny

A representative of the type of person (of which there are Many) who would gladly declare Church Attendence "Child Abuse" and send in the "Protectors" to take your kids from you.

Remember, all is Fair, Legal and Ethical - including burning the Constitution - if we "Do It For The Children"...

[sore shoulder]

for oh say about 5-10 minutes. :Johnny

Yea, 5 minutes works. It would be funny to watch him cry and whimper like a 9 year old girl for 00:04:50. After that it would just get nauseating.

[C. Cash]

I still think this is a case of he said/she said until the facts become more established. This call may have indeed been a hoax but it also might be her trying to get her 15 min. of fame by appearing to the tipster. What appears to be true at this point is that underage girls were having babies there. So, doubly sad if this call is a hoax because those little girls will continue to have to endure their "duty" as the subsequent evidence found in the compound will be worth squat. What Jeff's group has done to these underage girls(and what Jeffs himself was convicted of) is rape. Scores of folks that have escaped his communities have attested to it. Sex that is forcibly coerced is rape. The fact that it is happening to little girls is all the more dispicable.

[Old Ironsights]

I still think this is a case of he said/she said until the facts become more established. This call may have indeed been a hoax but it also might be her trying to get her 15 min. of fame by appearing to the tipster. What appears to be true at this point is that underage girls were having babies there. So, doubly sad if this call is a hoax because those little girls will continue to have to endure their "duty" as the subsequent evidence found in the compound will be worth squat. What Jeff's group has done to these underage girls(and what Jeffs himself was convicted of) is rape. Scores of folks that have escaped his communities have attested to it. Sex that is forcibly coerced is rape. The fact that it is happening to little girls is all the more dispicable.

Ok... then why aren't there more arrests of parents/children taken away when yet another little black girl scomes to grade school pregnant?

Oh, because she's in a "protected class" and not a member of a weird white-people cult - and going after HER parents wouldn't give the Government as much Media Exposure.

Can you give me any other explanation why "Child Protective Services" would act so differently in the two cases?

[El Mac]

I still think this is a case of he said/she said until the facts become more established. This call may have indeed been a hoax but it also might be her trying to get her 15 min. of fame by appearing to the tipster. What appears to be true at this point is that underage girls were having babies there. So, doubly sad if this call is a hoax because those little girls will continue to have to endure their "duty" as the subsequent evidence found in the compound will be worth squat. What Jeff's group has done to these underage girls(and what Jeffs himself was convicted of) is rape. Scores of folks that have escaped his communities have attested to it. Sex that is forcibly coerced is rape. The fact that it is happening to little girls is all the more dispicable.

Agreed. At any rate, the court proceedings continue. The truth will come out.

[El Mac]

Ok... then why aren't there more arrests of parents/children taken away when yet another little black girl scomes to grade school pregnant?

There probably should be.

Oh, because she's in a "protected class" and not a member of a weird white-people cult - and going after HER parents wouldn't give the Government as much Media Exposure.

So, following that logic (very much like the childish - "well everyone else gets to do it!"), we should just let the weird white people cult go ahead and rape their own underage cult members. Nice...

Can you give me any other explanation why "Child Protective Services" would act so differently in the two cases?

Perhaps because in this case, those wierd people's kids are basically kept hostage and completely alienated from society behind the walls of their 'religious compound' while those other little kids you mention are merely victims of there overactive hormones and little Johnny wearing his baggy jeans and hat on sideways just down the block. I don't know, I'm just kinda guessing here....

[Old Ironsights]

Saving the Children is Our Job
By Michael Reagan
Thursday, April 17, 2008

In the sad case of the children caught up in the maelstrom of the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints (FLDS) alleged child abuse matter, I tend to fall onto the church side in the separation of church and state.

The state is ill-equipped to deal with 400-plus youngsters it has torn from the bosoms of their mothers in the guise of protecting them from alleged abuses.

In considering this case it's important to keep in mind some rather unpleasant facts:

In America, there are over 500,000 children in foster care;

Approximately 300,000 kids are taken out of their homes every year because of neglect and abuse, and put in foster care;

Some 73 percent of the children put in foster care end up on the streets, or even worse, in jail;

Even though some 100,000 of these 500,000 youngsters are available for adoption, only a pitiful 1.2 percent will ever be adopted.

These statistics should concern every American. It's obvious that the government, which is great at starting wars and taxing the citizenry to pay for some of the worst hare-brained schemes imaginable, hasn't got the slightest idea of how to raise children.

They know how to take children from their homes but they don't know how to raise them once they've got them in their hands. Yet the idea that the government is better equipped than parents to raise children is widespread among the big-brother liberals who lust after inserting the power of the state into the very heart of the American family.

The reality is that when you take children from their mothers and put them in the hands of the state or its subordinate agents you ultimately do more damage to them than almost any abuse they might have suffered at home.

This is why I am calling on the Christian community and the churches to step up, take the children from the government, and assume their responsibility to keep these FLDS families together.

We need about 500 churches to take in 500 families. These children should be with their mothers, who are as much victims as their children are alleged to be. Splitting them up from their mother and their siblings is not going to be performing a service to these kids.

Just because we don't agree with their lifestyle does not necessarily mean that we can do a better job than the mothers can do in raising them.

We should keep in mind that the allegations against the FLDS remain speculative and unproven, yet the government rushed in and disrupted whole families on the basis of a single phone call from a teenager who, if she even exists, can't be found.

We've been through all of this kind of thing before. In the McMartin pre-school case during the 1980s, California government agencies acted on rumors that turned out to be absolutely false.

As Doug Linder wrote in 2003, the resulting McMartin Preschool Abuse Trial, which he called "the longest and most expensive criminal trial in American history," created a seven-year, $15 million investigation that led to not a single conviction.

"More seriously, the McMartin case left in its wake hundreds of emotionally damaged children, as well as ruined careers for members of the McMartin staff," Linder recalled.

I'm not saying that the FLDS case is a replay of that notorious miscarriage of justice, but we surely must keep in mind the lessons it taught us about rushing to judgment and endangering the welfare of children before the real facts are known.

In the meantime, the Christian community needs to come forward and provide homes for the families and their children until all this can be sorted out.

Finally, as an afterthought we should be thankful that it is not Bill Clinton's Attorney General, Janet Reno, running this operation against the FLDS Waco-style. If she were, by now the moms and their children would probably all be charred bodies in the smoking ruins of their compound.

Michael Reagan, the eldest son of Ronald Reagan, is heard daily by over 5 million listeners via his nationally syndicated talk radio program, “The Michael Reagan Show.â€

[RSY]

Perhaps because in this case, those weird people's kids are basically kept hostage and completely alienated from society behind the walls of their 'religious compound' while those other little kids you mention are merely victims of their overactive hormones and little Johnny wearing his baggy jeans and hat on sideways just down the block. I don't know, I'm just kinda guessing here....

You ain't just guessing, Mac. You pretty much nailed it.

scott

[Old Ironsights]

So it IS all about their "religion" and not about actually protecting the children.

Glad we've got that cleared up.

I love how you guys are completely ignoring what some HIGHLY RELIGIOUS Conservative Pundits are saying about this...

[sore shoulder]

Perhaps because in this case, those wierd people's kids are basically kept hostage and completely alienated from society behind the walls of their 'religious compound' while those other little kids you mention are merely victims of there overactive hormones and little Johnny wearing his baggy jeans and hat on sideways just down the block. I don't know, I'm just kinda guessing here....

You call shielding impressionable minds from the trash on tv and in society and ensuring they have a good moral backround holding them hostage, and consider the hip hop,rap, gangser trash better? Man you are one confused and irrational person. You probably think homeschooling is bad also and that kids shielded from the garbage in public school will just go wild. Let me just make sure you dont have that misconception. Both my kids were homeschooled until jr high. We then placed them in a christian high school. My daughter graduated with honors, and is now a 4.0 business major and will have a BA in 3 years, my son holds a high security job in the Navy. Just one of my "hostages" is worth a hundred of those baggy pants little heathen who are not held hostage and alienated.

You just confirmed my total lack of hope for society with that comment El mac. Good work.

We should be so lucky as to have those "alienated hostages" enter our society when they are mature enough to handle the trash the world inundates them with. Until then I reserve the right for those people to control just what their children are exposed to. I can't beleive there are supposed freedom loving people here who think the public has a right to poison those childrens minds. Thats insanity right there.

[sore shoulder]

So it IS all about their "religion" and not about actually protecting the children.

.

You are wasting your time. It's like trying to reason with a barely literate unintelligent bigot. Exactly like.

[sore shoulder]

The truth will come out.

Not that it will matter to you.

[Hobie]

Hey guys, can somebody tell me why we never hear about these same CPS folks going after Muslims who visit with their multiple wives? Is polygamy/bigamy legal because the act was initiated overseas?

There's something else I don't understand. The Texas agencies removed 410+ children and some (?) mothers, then finally allowed (?) some mothers to return to the compound/retreat but never have arrested even one male. Were there no males in the compound/retreat? What's up with that?

Did they seize any firearms or find any?

[RSY]

You just confirmed my total lack of hope for society with that comment El mac. Good work.

We should be so lucky as to have those "alienated hostages" enter our society when they are mature enough to handle the trash the world inundates them with. Until then I reserve the right for those people to control just what their children are exposed to. I can't beleive there are supposed freedom loving people here who think the public has a right to poison those childrens minds. Thats insanity right there.

Whatever El Mac's views may be, I think his comment did a pretty good job of pointing out that the previous comparison between pregnant kids in the compound (if there actually do turn out to have been any) and inner city FREE-WILL teen pregnancy is egregiously apples-to-oranges and basically laughable. OI, you can do better, amigo.

Now, as for the "alienated hostages" entering our society, you're making a huge assumption that it is even an option for them when they come of age. That is my main problem here: People are free to raise their families any way they please, so long as the children are allowed to depart the family unit of their own free will when they are old enough. My fear is that is not the case here. That is not American or free...bottom line.

At this point, we all need to sit tight and wait for the facts, all of them, to come out. Also, when this is all water under the bridge, I'm assuming we all want to still be compadres. Beware the written word, it is like a bullet in that it is difficult to recall once loosed.

Scott

[El Mac]

You call shielding impressionable minds from the trash on tv and in society and ensuring they have a good moral backround holding them hostage, and consider the hip hop,rap, gangser trash better?

No and no.

Man you are one confused and irrational person.

Me thinks thou dost protest too much. You might want to take a look in the mirror.

You probably think homeschooling is bad also and that kids shielded from the garbage in public school will just go wild.

Now, that is funny. No I don't think so at all. In fact, my kids got a kick out of your comment. Clearly, you don't know me.

Let me just make sure you dont have that misconception. Both my kids were homeschooled until jr high. We then placed them in a christian high school. My daughter graduated with honors, and is now a 4.0 business major and will have a BA in 3 years, my son holds a high security job in the Navy. Just one of my "hostages" is worth a hundred of those baggy pants little heathen who are not held hostage and alienated.

Thats great! My hat is off to you.

We should be so lucky as to have those "alienated hostages" enter our society when they are mature enough to handle the trash the world inundates them with.

On this we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't expect much from a bunch of brainwashed robots.

Until then I reserve the right for those people to control just what their children are exposed to. I can't beleive there are supposed freedom loving people here who think the public has a right to poison those childrens minds. Thats insanity right there.

I'm not the one poisoning their minds with idol and false prophet worship. A "prophet" that has been tried and conviceted in a court of law by his peers for child rape. That sir, is beyond insanity.

[El Mac]

Now, as for the "alienated hostages" entering our society, you're making a huge assumption that it is even an option for them when they come of age. That is my main problem here: People are free to raise their families any way they please, so long as the children are allowed to depart the family unit of their own free will when they are old enough. My fear is that is not the case here. That is not American or free...bottom line.

At this point, we all need to sit tight and wait for the facts, all of them, to come out. Also, when this is all water under the bridge, I'm assuming we all want to still be compadres. Beware the written word, it is like a bullet in that it is difficult to recall once loosed.

Scott

Well said.

[El Mac]

A nice little summary on The "Prophet". What a guy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs

Some additional info that you might find interesting:
http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0767927567 ... J6G2QYGCG2

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B001658Z6E ... J6G2QYGCG2

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0061628018 ... J6G2QYGCG2

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/0312372485 ... J6G2QYGCG2

Enjoy.

[sore shoulder]

A nice little summary on The "Prophet". What a guy!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_Jeffs

In case you didn't know, he's in jail, and is not the subject of this illegal raid on the religious seperatists in question. It may help you feel better about your unfounded accusations against the people in the compound. Back to the subject, show me anyone who has been arrested for a crime in connection with the govt sponsored kidnappings. show me any charges that have been filed. Why are they even in court? The agencies who sponsored and are carrying out these actions have basically wiped their backside with The Constitution, then used it to wrap up a bunch of accusations, which the media has offered for sale, and you are wolfing it down, but you guys are ok with that as long as it's for the children and someones been accused of child molestation.

[Old Ironsights]

Hey guys, can somebody tell me why we never hear about these same CPS folks going after Muslims who visit with their multiple wives? Is polygamy/bigamy legal because the act was initiated overseas?

There's something else I don't understand. The Texas agencies removed 410+ children and some (?) mothers, then finally allowed (?) some mothers to return to the compound/retreat but never have arrested even one male. Were there no males in the compound/retreat? What's up with that?

That, and after the kids wouldn't say what they wanted them to, they decided it was "in the children's interest" to interrogate them away from their Mothers - who haven't been charged with anything - to "prevent coaching"...

Lessee.... no witnessess to the Interrogation = No Coaching by the Government.

Got it.

Hey, I've got some stock in a Railroad too...

[Old Ironsights]

Man you are one confused and irrational person.

Me thinks thou dost protest too much. You might want to take a look in the mirror.

Pot, Kettle, Black. Maybe you ought to look into a few terms:

Projection
Reaction Formation

You may learn a few things...

We should be so lucky as to have those "alienated hostages" enter our society when they are mature enough to handle the trash the world inundates them with.

On this we are just going to have to agree to disagree. I wouldn't expect much from a bunch of brainwashed robots.

You do realize that is essentially the exact same thing Osama Obama just said about us "bitter" religious types... Oh, I guess you don't.

Until then I reserve the right for those people to control just what their children are exposed to. I can't beleive there are supposed freedom loving people here who think the public has a right to poison those childrens minds. Thats insanity right there.

I'm not the one poisoning their minds with idol and false prophet worship. A "prophet" that has been tried and conviceted in a court of law by his peers for child rape. That sir, is beyond insanity.

It also shows what you are most worried about... "false religion" not Child Safety.

If you were actually concerned about Child Welfare, you would not be dismissive of inner city girl-children and their "baby daddies".

[El Mac]

You guys are at least humorous.

At least the Jeff's Cult isn't raping any kids tonight.

[bogus bill]

Okay, I only speed read this thread in last 30 secounds. Will research tonight. Just qualifying myself. We moved here to utah 3+ years. We have some in my area and live a hour from the hotbed of hilldale and colorado city. I have researched this group daily. I am not even morman or looking to be one. Its got to be a passion of mine. I told the wife when we moved here what would happen and it has. I dont know anymore than anyone else about the woman tipster. I do know every published scrap of news on them in the last 3+ years.
I dont think the average person nation wide knows a 100th of what has been happening even now.
In short for now, the young girls have absolutely no say in whom they are given to. Never in their own age bracket but on the average to men in good standing 45 to 70 or whatever. At 13 to 14 years old. Boys are set on the road at puebilty, or slaves to family construction etc. There are about 450 around st. george. They are known as "the lost boys". Also many go to vegas and end up male prositutes to live! How else can the old geezers marry at least 3 to make heaven?
Recently a 11 year old boy was killed on a construction job near st. george. I have seen what looked like a 10 year old roofing down the street last year. Yesterday I was talking to a licensed electrican co owner who says he is underbid by the flds wherever he gos by them useing their kids for slave labor!
They have a bad rare retardnation thing going on with the limited gene pool. They have super high welfare fraud and are encouraged to do so. It is termed, "Bleading the beast", us!
If a family head man falls back on tithing or whatever, his family is given to another wealthy old geezer in better standing. Wives and kids! He is told to go and repent from afar. And he does, and probley never returns. The women belive every word from the guru and obeys.
The man is given a chance initialy by writeing down every sin he can remember, his and his coherts or anybody and it is studied and used on others in the flds. Their school system was broke and it was found amongst other things that a airplane was bought.
There is reported a large cemitary of children has come to light. Speculation has it that probley something to do with the high retardnation. Supposedly, they dont even know or tell who they are as they arent big on brith certificates etc.
Hey, I could and probley will post more later, but I gotta run!

[Old Ironsights]

You guys are at least humorous.

At least the Jeff's Cult isn't raping any kids tonight.

Oh, Really?

Then why hasn't the Govt raided all the other compounds/homes of all the rest of Silly Jeff's followers?

Maybe because it''s not about Child endangerment and more about having an anti-govennment/Anti TV compound surrounded by people with no Constitutional religious tolerance?

Meh.

You are displaying no better than the typical anti gun/liberal-fascist attitude.

"I don't like it, I'm afraid of it, I don't know what's going on, SEND IN THE TROOPS!"

INNOCENT - INNOCENT - until PROVEN guilty.

Why hasn't a single male... i.e. "rapist"... been charged?!?!?!

[El Mac]

Then why hasn't the Govt raided all the other compounds/homes of all the rest of Silly Jeff's followers?

Perhaps because they haven't the PC to do so yet. Its a court thing.

"I don't like it, I'm afraid of it, I don't know what's going on, SEND IN THE TROOPS!"

"I don't like it, I'm afraid of it, I don't know what's going on, SEND IN THE NIHLISTIC ANARCHISTS!"

INNOCENT - INNOCENT - until PROVEN guilty.

Exactly. Which is why we are having a court proceeding...

Why hasn't a single male... i.e. "rapist"... been charged?!?!?!

Because the court proceedings are ongoing...

[Hobie]

You guys are at least humorous.

At least the Jeff's Cult isn't raping any kids tonight.

On the contrary, IF any of the charges are true they might well be and in that same compound as some of the wives have returned to the compound the men never left. Further, there are other compounds in other states... Or so it has been reported. Now there's something else I don't understand....

[Blaine]

Danged if ya do, and danged if ya don't, isn't it?

If this think is a hoax, let's imprison the offender the same amount of prison time victims of the hoax might have gotten.

Let's cut to the chase.......Let's make sure no one is being harmed or held against their will before letting everyone off the hook......They are knowingly breaking a law with the polygamy, that should be reasonable cause enough to enter a compound...Like it or not, once a warrent has been cut, it is NOT unconstitutional to enter the compound...That's the law of the land and you should be prepared to pay the piper if you choose to ignore it. People want the so called "right" to fail to repair without the obligation to take their just desserts for it.......Personal Responsibility, anyone????

[El Mac]

You guys are at least humorous.

At least the Jeff's Cult isn't raping any kids tonight.

On the contrary, IF any of the charges are true they might well be and in that same compound as some of the wives have returned to the compound the men never left. Further, there are other compounds in other states... Or so it has been reported. Now there's something else I don't understand....

Let me clarify Hobie. No underage children remain in the YFZ compound in Texas. The women can return to the compound, but the kids will not return - at least not tonight. Since this is a state matter in Texas (not federal), Texas is not responsible for shutting down other compounds that may exist elsewhere.

I would also add, there are no kids being raped inside the compound by the Jeffbots. Unless of course they have hidden some that the authorities didn't find. Of course, there are Jeffbots running around that probably still have access to children. But clearly, it is not sanctioned by the State of Texas.

[El Mac]

.......Personal Responsibility, anyone????

Now Blaine... You might be asking a bit too much.

[Old Ironsights]

Danged if ya do, and danged if ya don't, isn't it?

Pretty much. That's why we MUST err on the side of the Conbstitution... otherwise the foundation of out system means squat.

If this think is a hoax, let's imprison the offender the same amount of prison time victims of the hoax might have gotten.

I'd be for public flogging with a Cat 'o nine tails, but then I'm just a bloodthirsty paedophile lover...

Let's cut to the chase.......Let's make sure no one is being harmed or held against their will before letting everyone off the hook......

Several hundred at present...

They are knowingly breaking a law with the polygamy, that should be reasonable cause enough to enter a compound...Like it or not, once a warrent has been cut, it is NOT unconstitutional to enter the compound...That's the law of the land and you should be prepared to pay the piper if you choose to ignore it.

Don't really even have much to gripe about there... but then, why grab the women and kids - who are not traditionally charged in poligyny cases - and not the MEN, who ARE charged in poligygy cases???

People want the so called "right" to fail to repair without the obligation to take their just desserts for it.......Personal Responsibility, anyone????

Yep Personal responsibility. And it';s the government's job to arrest &/or detain the GUILTY/POTENTIALLY GUILLTY not the INNOCENT.

So far, all they have done is steal kids and begin their OWN version of brainwashing (See Mac, I can do it too... ).

Tell me why, if this ISN'T about "religion", why there isn't a concerted effort to remove every single pregnant child (under 18 ) from every single household in America?

It's really that simple. If it's about Pregnant PreTeens, then they ALL need to be removed. Period. But the Government only goes after High Profile/Media Circuses. That, by itself, throws the ligitimacy of the whole thing into question.

[Old Ironsights]

You guys are at least humorous.

At least the Jeff's Cult isn't raping any kids tonight.

On the contrary, IF any of the charges are true they might well be and in that same compound as some of the wives have returned to the compound the men never left. Further, there are other compounds in other states... Or so it has been reported. Now there's something else I don't understand....

Let me clarify Hobie. No underage children remain in the YFZ compound in Texas. The women can return to the compound, but the kids will not return - at least not tonight. Since this is a state matter in Texas (not federal), Texas is not responsible for shutting down other compounds that may exist elsewhere.

I would also add, there are no kids being raped inside the compound by the Jeffbots. Unless of course they have hidden some that the authorities didn't find. Of course, there are Jeffbots running around that probably still have access to children. But clearly, it is not sanctioned by the State of Texas.

It's called Splitting Hairs Hobie. It's the last refuge of the Desperate Debator.

[Old Ironsights]

OH, BTW Mac, I want you to know you have the utmost support from the Athiest and Radical Left contingent of several forums.

You are in good (anti Constitutionalist) Company...

[El Mac]

It's called Splitting Hairs Hobie. It's the last refuge of the Desperate Debator.

More like Truth Telling.

[El Mac]

OH, BTW Mac, I want you to know you have the utmost support from the Athiest and Radical Left contingent of several forums.

You are in good (anti Constitutionalist) Company...

Riiiiight. Well do TELL OI! Do be a daisy and please don't keep it a secret!

[AJMD429]

Notice the "claims" being made by an investigator now. Again, no evidence. Also, now it seems underage girls having sex or getting pregnant is a problem only if you live in a religous seperatist setting. If you are in the inner city it's no problem, they just send you a check so the baby-daddy can buy more crack.

AND you and I pay for it with our tax money...!

God must have a sense of humor or he'd have super-nova'd our sun by now.

[Old Time Hunter]

It seems as though we all hang our hats on the wrong hook here...the issue is, does the government have the right to imprison based on assumption? If it does, then we as individuals or even as a group really have no rights.

Personally I don't give a rat's **s about allegations, about being wierd, or being a cult...show me the PROOF that a crime was actually committed. Don't go by heresay, take the high road based on WHAT OUR CONSTITUTION says, not what our societal emotions dictate.

What Bogus Bill wrote is most probably true, but still needs proof to be a crime.

The allegations of multiple wives, or polygamy, is just that. Doesn't a marriage have to be recognized by a judge, or agent of the government (priest etc.)? Since so many of these "marriages" are not legal, how can they be marriages? Just a thought by the way...wouldn't wish multiple wives on anyone...multiple honeydew list anyone????

[Old Ironsights]

SHHH...

You guys are being sensble again.

I thought Mac had made it clear he doesn't care about Sensible, only Sharia...

[Old Ironsights]

OH, BTW Mac, I want you to know you have the utmost support from the Athiest and Radical Left contingent of several forums.

You are in good (anti Constitutionalist) Company...

Riiiiight. Well do TELL OI! Do be a daisy and please don't keep it a secret!

Perhaps you should see what the opposition is up to/thinking.

I check DU, Kos, Move On and several others throughout the week. There's a lot of people there who agree with you...

To be fair, there are not a few that agree with us Constitutionalists too... but they are generally in the Minority.

[JohnnyReb]

El Mac,

I have to know the answer:

It appears that the "tip" was a hoax..... if this is correct:

Should the law enforcement back out? OR

Should they just stay in the community and sift through these people's lives because they happen to be there?

ANY constitutional lawyer will tell you that this is the most dangerous conduct in which the government can engage. "Judge, the information I had on his/her/their violation of the law was false.....but since I was there.....I found this or that evidence of a crime".

Do you not see the apparent danger in allowing such conduct?

[Blaine]

ANY constitutional lawyer will tell you that this is the most dangerous conduct in which the government can engage. "Judge, the information I had on his/her/their violation of the law was false.....but since I was there.....I found this or that evidence of a crime".

If the something else is in plain sight I think they can jump on it...If not, Not....(I'm not all that sure here)

[Old Ironsights]

Hey Johnny...

For you Anti Constitutionalists... Let's try a "Legal" angle...

In no way do I support or condone arranged marriages - for anyone of any age - but the fact remains that THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING TREATED DIFFERENTLY FROM INNER CITY PRE-TEEN PREGNANCIES/BABY DADDIES BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE AND RELIGION - in CLEAR violation of USC Title 18 CFR Part 1, Chapter 13, Section 241 and 242:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/ ... -000-.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/ ... -000-.html

Freedom IS. And if the government can take it away from them "for the children" , how long will it be before the Bill Mahr/Richard Dawkins' of this world make it so ANYONE's child can be taken away for the "child abuse" of Religion or Gun Ownership?

Think people, Think. This is part of an attempt to SET PRECEDENT.

Who's next? Those ebil, child abusing infant baptizers? Seems there were not a few deaths attributable to that little debate...

[Blaine]

Hey Johnny...

For you Anti Constitutionalists... Let's try a "Legal" angle...

In no way do I support or condone arranged marriages - for anyone of any age - but the fact remains that THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING TREATED DIFFERENTLY FROM INNER CITY PRE-TEEN PREGNANCIES/BABY DADDIES BECAUSE OF THEIR RACE AND RELIGION - in CLEAR violation of USC Title 18 CFR Part 1, Chapter 13, Section 241 and 242:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/ ... -000-.html
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/ ... -000-.html

Freedom IS. And if the government can take it away from them "for the children" , how long will it be before the Bill Mahr/Richard Dawkins' of this world make it so ANYONE's child can be taken away for the "child abuse" of Religion or Gun Ownership?

Think people, Think. This is part of an attempt to SET PRECEDENT.

Who's next? Those ebil, child abusing infant baptizers? Seems there were not a few deaths attributable to that little debate...

Ok...now you got me going......Don't you think it's a pee poor comparision? The little inner city moms are not complaining, they are planning on having another real quick for more money.....

You're right, tho....where are the Men, here??

[JohnnyReb]

ANY constitutional lawyer will tell you that this is the most dangerous conduct in which the government can engage. "Judge, the information I had on his/her/their violation of the law was false.....but since I was there.....I found this or that evidence of a crime".

If the something else is in plain sight I think they can jump on it...If not, Not....(I'm not all that sure here)

You are referring to the "plain sight" doctrine.... however, the law enforcement officer has to be legally in the area for sight of the criminal activity in the first place.

That is my point: If they can get away with this conduct at the FLDS community then: "Judge, I thought I saw a guy with an outstanding warrant run in EL Mac's house and chased him into the residence but I was mistaken........ However, let me tell you what I saw while I was there....guys has got all kinds of gunpowder and primers and other material to make explosives! Had and have no evidence of such conduct but since I was in there......I think we should remove all that equipment....to protect the public....and then really see what this guy is up to..."

[El Mac]

Actually OI, you are the Bill Mahrist one to me. Thats right...suspend all rights against Christians and allow pagans, homos, cultists, Darwanists, etc to do whatever they want...just as long as it feels good and the gov't isn't involved.

Sheesh.

OI, I just don't see how anyone that calls himself a 'freedom lover' is good with old perverts getting their rocks off on children. But hey, I guess it takes all types to make the world go around.

Definition of Shariah law: Not letting common sense get in the way of legalism.