Just musing about how much 'energy' one can carry...

[AJMD429]

My gift to myself for surviving a horrible business transition (December 'pay' was negative $12,000 - a 'Merry Christmas' indeed), or perhaps to my heirs if the stress winds up killing me, is going to be a Bighorn Carbine. It will replace my Guide Gun as my 'go-to' for when something needs a BIG hole in it, and I know the Guide Gun can be loaded to a huge variation in power-levels, depending on who you ask, and how far you trust the Marlin action, but was just musing with my spreadsheet. I am probably just paranoid, but I always get nervous firing 'modern' loads from my Marlin, even though I know it's safer than riding a bicycle; the shortened 1886 action, made with modern steel, and engineered specifically for the 500 S&W, seems the perfect alternative. (It is one levergun I can almost guarantee I won't ever get a 'companion' caliber handgun for, though - the 500 S&W handguns don't much interest me.)

Portable Energy 990.jpg

The new carbine will be almost exactly the same length as my Guide Gun, hold 7 in the magazine instead of 4, and only weigh 10 more ounces. In terms of how much Taylor Knockout Power it can carry, I calculate a number of 450 - more than any of the common other firearms I have (I don't actually have a 416 Rigby but was curious to compare it) to compare it to, except a 12 gauge (mine is only an 8-shot, actually, as it is a 500 and not a 590, but I was using website data for gun weight and found the 590 first).

That makes sense, because the 12 gauge is just plain DEVASTATING at close range; the difference (hopefully) is that I can shoot more accurately at longer distance with the 500 S&W.

I know there are lots of other loads available for the various cartridges, but I was just playing around, so don't take my musings TOO seriously...

Anyway, that is BUNCHES of punches in a handy package. I can't wait to actually get it (turnaround time I think is at least six months from what I've heard, so I have to start saving up the difference in cost vs. downpayment now).

[AJMD429]

I guess for a saboted 12 gauge, I should use 0.430 or 0.454 for 'caliber', unless the target is so close the sabot is still attached (and if it is that close, the unburnt powder weight will hit the target as well...

[Blaine]

Maybe Grizz is not around to chime in, but, the extra velocity of a sabot won't get you any extra penetration. A .458-459 525gr wide meplate cast will out penetrate about anything else out there....+- 1350fps is all you need, and pressures will not be scary in a Marlin 1895. IMO, they didn't kick anymore than my 405 load that cronyed at 1750fps out of the Cowboy.

[Streetstar]

That Bighorn gun is an impressive piece , to be sure -------- i like it and would love to have one -- but still, my benchmark remains my trusty Guide Gun -- less capacity, sure, but i have rarely had to unleash all 5 rounds from its tubes
The Bighorn - (and the various X frame revolvers) are on one of those lists of stuff i need , but not at the forefront (right up there with the Armalite AR-50 and the Coharie HK-94 clones )

I would almost rather go with one of the Brockman's takedowns like was recently posted in here by Mike ----

I hope one day i can have room for all that stuff -- but for now, i still feel well armed with that Guide Gun in hand -- (but i look fwd to the range report on the BigHorn -- it is one of the most exciting pieces of levergun engineering to come out in a while, for sure )

[AJMD429]

You're right about the Guide Gun and 'mild' loads (at least by modern standards). I think one of the water-jug penetration videos I saw on YouTube where the 45-70 bested the 50 BMG had the 45-70 load only around 1250 fps or so.

Still, I was back in the woods behind the barn last week, and I think I seen some Cape Buffalo tracks; at least that's what I told my wife...

[Streetstar]

Still, I was back in the woods behind the barn last week, and I think I seen some Cape Buffalo tracks; at least that's what I told my wife...

If the Cape Buffalo in Indiana aren't nipped in the bud, they'll be as rampant as feral hogs in S. Texas !

I have thought about those Big Horn guns though --- i was asking myself, -- If I had a spare 2k+ laying around, would i go for one of those, or one of the recently released 1860 replicas from Henry? Tough when you cant buy em' all --- like many on here , i struggle to find time to shoot what i already have though

[Homer]

Searching for and finding a reason, especially a practical reason, for buying a new gun, when you already have the need filled, is fine art indeed. Bringing cape buffalo tracks into the art certainly elevates the art from Van Gogh to Picasso (the former is simple and understandable and the later is far too fine for me to comprehend) - hat's off. Now, if you can take a $12K hit and compound it with another $2K hit then you are an artist that may even exceed those gone before you. Given that stratospheric elevation, stop the reasoning and just buy the darn thing for the simple reason of "I just wanted it." That will surely confound and confuse anyone within your sphere of influence and at least half of those on this forum.

[AJMD429]

Searching for and finding a reason, especially a practical reason, for buying a new gun, when you already have the need filled, is fine art indeed. Bringing cape buffalo tracks into the art certainly elevates the art from Van Gogh to Picasso (the former is simple and understandable and the later is far too fine for me to comprehend) - hat's off. Now, if you can take a $12K hit and compound it with another $2K hit then you are an artist that may even exceed those gone before you. Given that stratospheric elevation, stop the reasoning and just buy the darn thing for the simple reason of "I just wanted it." That will surely confound and confuse anyone within your sphere of influence and at least half of those on this forum.

You logic is as poetic as your forum name would predict...

[7.62 Precision]

If I had a spare 2k+ laying around, would i go for one of those, or one of the recently released 1860 replicas from Henry? Tough when you cant buy em' all --- like many on here , i struggle to find time to shoot what i already have though

If I had spare 2k+ laying around, I would probably buy something original before I bought the 1860 clone from Henry. A clone at any price is still a clone, no matter how well marketed, so for me a nice original holds more interest and more value.

If I was buying a Henry clone, it would be an Italian one with money left over to do other things with.

The Big Horn rifle has a lot more interest for me, as a practical rifle - 1886 design, scaled down a bit, a good caliber - I would like to have one. Don't know if I ever will, though. I already have an 1886 design, scaled down a bit, in a good caliber (.454); so does my wife. I have an 1886 in .45-70, and a couple .50 Beowulfs. The price would be hard to justify for me right now, but if I was in a position to drop that much cash without too much worry, I would get one.

[Streetstar]

If I had a spare 2k+ laying around, would i go for one of those, or one of the recently released 1860 replicas from Henry? Tough when you cant buy em' all --- like many on here , i struggle to find time to shoot what i already have though

If I had spare 2k+ laying around, I would probably buy something original before I bought the 1860 clone from Henry. A clone at any price is still a clone, no matter how well marketed, so for me a nice original holds more interest and more value.
.

Your no doubt aware of how much an original Henry in shootable condition costs right ? (about as much as a decently appointed F-150 truck)

[7.62 Precision]

If I had a spare 2k+ laying around, would i go for one of those, or one of the recently released 1860 replicas from Henry? Tough when you cant buy em' all --- like many on here , i struggle to find time to shoot what i already have though

If I had spare 2k+ laying around, I would probably buy something original before I bought the 1860 clone from Henry. A clone at any price is still a clone, no matter how well marketed, so for me a nice original holds more interest and more value.
.

Your no doubt aware of how much an original Henry in shootable condition costs right ? (about as much as a decently appointed F-150 truck)

Yes, but I could get a very decent 1873 or 1876 or and awfully nice 1886, 1892, 1894, or 1895 Winchester, or a Marlin from the same era, for the same price as the Henry's Henry.

Henry is doing brilliant marketing; I know, because everywhere people talk about Henry's rifles, they are repeating the marketing hype. Since I have a lot of experience in marketing, I kind of look past all of that and consider the product itself. The rifle is not an heirloom, it won't be for a couple generations. It has no more history than any other modern clone. The fact that it is made by Henry lends no extra history or value to the rifle. Henry was not, as they claim, founded by Benjamin T. Henry. His work and the original Henry rifle is tied to the history of Winchester, not the modern Henry Rifle company.

So the bottom line is that the appeal for me for Henry's Henry rifle clone is that it is made in the US and seems to be nicely finished. That is not enough to make me willing to spend double the price of a nice competing Henry clone. For me, it is too much to spend for a rifle that is not a practical rifle for me, and is not an original, collectible rifle.

[Streetstar]

If I had a spare 2k+ laying around, would i go for one of those, or one of the recently released 1860 replicas from Henry? Tough when you cant buy em' all --- like many on here , i struggle to find time to shoot what i already have though

If I had spare 2k+ laying around, I would probably buy something original before I bought the 1860 clone from Henry. A clone at any price is still a clone, no matter how well marketed, so for me a nice original holds more interest and more value.
.

Your no doubt aware of how much an original Henry in shootable condition costs right ? (about as much as a decently appointed F-150 truck)

Yes, but I could get a very decent 1873 or 1876 or and awfully nice 1886, 1892, 1894, or 1895 Winchester, or a Marlin from the same era, for the same price as the Henry's Henry.

Henry is doing brilliant marketing; I know, because everywhere people talk about Henry's rifles, they are repeating the marketing hype. Since I have a lot of experience in marketing, I kind of look past all of that and consider the product itself. The rifle is not an heirloom, it won't be for a couple generations. It has no more history than any other modern clone. The fact that it is made by Henry lends no extra history or value to the rifle. Henry was not, as they claim, founded by Benjamin T. Henry. His work and the original Henry rifle is tied to the history of Winchester, not the modern Henry Rifle company.

So the bottom line is that the appeal for me for Henry's Henry rifle clone is that it is made in the US and seems to be nicely finished. That is not enough to make me willing to spend double the price of a nice competing Henry clone. For me, it is too much to spend for a rifle that is not a practical rifle for me, and is not an original, collectible rifle.

Didnt mean to thread drift so much Doc -- but at least we are still talking about leverguns, huh?

7.62 , - practical has very little to do with it though , its the same reason guys spend twice as much for a domestically produced Sharps than for a Pedersoli.
If most levergun enthusiast's already have a nice 30-30, a 45-70, and a .22 of any brand - anything else is an "I want it" purchase and not necessarilly because there's a need
(unless the aforementioned Cape buffalo population is wreaking havoc with your begonias )

[Canuck Bob]

It is interesting that the wide meplat hard cast shooters recommend a limit to the effectiveness of adding power. Veral, over at LBT Molds, a real character, has a formula for use like the different formulas on the Beartooth Bullet site, called the ballistic corner. Veral has a forum on Greybeards of his own for research.

If I was thinking of your plan I would consider a very heavy flat face fist of a cast bullet at medium velocity. Some cast shooters say this is the sweet spot for terminal performance.

You would be uniquely qualified to answer what I think was the best argument for big bore sledge hammer medium velocity bullets. In one thread a Doctor replied that the unusual DRT performance often reported was because the wound channel did not tend to excite a natural physiological response to stop internal bleeding and the resulting massive drop in blood pressure. He suggested that magnums did cause this reaction from the shock. He also postulated that a big bullet would punch a very long and substantial wound channel leading to massive blood pressure drops and two drain holes. It made sense to a me but that means nothing.

The reason it made sense was my experience with a 444 at long range. I hunted the Rockies with a 444. To say folks considered me a clueless gun nut is an understatement. But I sold off a lefty Rem 700 7MM Mag because it just didn't preform like I thought it shoul for all the fuss it created when it went off. I did the same with a 243 deer rifle, lots of press and sizzle but my lowly Savage 30-30 bolt knocked them down better or as well (I know this heresy but that was my experience). The long range performance of these low BC heavy flying bricks offers a huge drop in velocity and energy. Yet hunting experience seemed to indicate the 444 didn't care if it was 30 yards or 200. It always supplied outstanding terminal performance that charts said it shouldn't.

If I was planning your rifle going moose or elk hunting with as much weight as I could push at 1800 fps might be a good trial. No matter what you load a mid range anything in that caliber would be serious thumper. I would take 375 H&H 300 grain energy performance, the Africans know a bit about big game, as the bottom and then whatever my shoulder could stand above that. My 444 with stout 265 Hornady loads is all I could handle. Taking advantage of the .50s greatest attribute, BIG BORE, and massive penetration it might be as, or much more, effective than the numbers generated from high velocity loads indicate. In my silly way I consider the 444 as effective as any stout loaded 45-70 even though it shouldn't be.

[Ben_Rumson]

The real power that carbine has is your stress relief
Very far sighted of you Doc to consider your heirs, I always keep mine in mind when I reward myself with something as cool as what you are going for

[AJMD429]

The reason it made sense was my experience with a 444 at long range. I hunted the Rockies with a 444. To say folks considered me a clueless gun nut is an understatement. But I sold off a lefty Rem 700 7MM Mag because it just didn't preform like I thought it should for all the fuss it created when it went off. I did the same with a 243 deer rifle, lots of press and sizzle but my lowly Savage 30-30 bolt knocked them down better or as well (I know this heresy but that was my experience). The long range performance of these low BC heavy flying bricks offers a huge drop in velocity and energy. Yet hunting experience seemed to indicate the 444 didn't care if it was 30 yards or 200. It always supplied outstanding terminal performance that charts said it shouldn't.

I don't have the hunting experience to 'agree' with you [ ], but I've read similar comments from many who do. My major reason for wanting that particular gun (aside from the Cape Buffalo out behind the barn) is that it is beautifully-made, a nice finish (blackened stainless, excellent wood), and a wonderful design (modern version of a classic). Ballistically, I'd have 'settled' for anything 45 caliber on up, but was most interested in 50 caliber or 475 caliber, just because of what you said. As far as loading up those 400 grainers at 2000 fps, there is a 'thrill factor' there, but more likely I'll shoot lots and lots of heavy bullets around 1200-1400 fps. That seems to do the job on game just as well from what experts tell me, and the only reason to 'go faster' at the muzzle is to increase range - but with the trajectory of those chubby bullets I'm likely to not want to risk an inhumane shot by shooting too far.

However, if I hunt with it (I know you hunters think 'what else is a gun for, anyway'), I will be likely hunting hogs or gators if I'm lucky, or whitetail in an ordinary year, so shots will be not all that far away most likely. OTOH, I do way more shooting than hunting, so I'm still going to shoot some stuff far away with high velocity rounds just for fun.

[wvfarrier]

What's the old saying..."bigger is better?" Seriously if I could afford one i would buy it

[Canuck Bob]

I should add that your reasons are excellent. That is a truly interesting and desirable rifle. I no longer hunt after years of Multiple Myeloma treatment. Shooting and honing my shooting skills is my motivation. However I tend to think of a rifle as a hunting weapon first.

Folks tend to blink at the barrel of my 444 expecting a 30-30. I love my Lyman Deerstalker because it is a .54. Gotta like big bores!

[Old Ironsights]

Phased Plasma Rifle in the 40 megawatt range...

[AJMD429]

Don't know if I ever will, though. I already have an 1886 design, scaled down a bit, in a good caliber (.454); so does my wife.

I'm interested in what gun that is...

[Griff]

As a gang-banger I once had the opportunity to talk to said, when asked why he killed two drug dealers... "I didn't know that .44Magnum would go thru that 1st (unsavory pejorative deleted) and kill that other'n too!"

But, on topic, I really like the Bighorn Armory gun...

[Birdman]

Go for what ya want and give us a right up when it arrives. I read Jeff Quinn's write up a few years ago and it sounds like a dandy.

[madman4570]

Sounds like a sweet piece. Hope you get it.
But to save you some money think I might just tell your wife all he needs is
http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... el%2C+Rifl

With some Win Supreme 12ga 385gr Partitions 50 cal sabots really booking he ain't going to be shooting too many buffs past 200yds.
They will do ya out to 200yds with the greatest hold under out to 150yds of 2.5" and at 200yds still only a 6" hold over. All while being very flat along most of the way.
http://ballisticscalculator.winchester.com/
BIL has a Savage 210 and that thing ain't no shotgun its a darn 50 Cal Rifle.
A short rifled barrel quick pump on the cheap, good adj rifle sights ? sweet.
You just want the other one cause its cool.
Can't kid a kidder.

[Grizz]

hey that's an exciting gun and I bet you're gonna love shooting it.

can you post or email that spreadsheet? I'd like to try my loads in it.

for 12 ga, I shoot .69 roundball, abt 425 grains but don't know the velocity. the box velocity for 1oz should be very close. I forget what it is and that stuff is buried.

for 45/70 could you try plugging in 525gr at 1400 for a tko comparison. since tko measures momentum the heavier bullets always seem to excell.

your chart shows the 400gr bullet running a THOUSAND fps faster than my redhawk 44 405gr load, which makes extended ranges easy shots.

good stuff, can't wait to see your results

Grizz

[7.62 Precision]

Don't know if I ever will, though. I already have an 1886 design, scaled down a bit, in a good caliber (.454); so does my wife.

I'm interested in what gun that is...

It's called a Rossi R92. Not nearly so nice as the Big Horn carbine, of course, but handy little carbines, light with light recoil.

[7.62 Precision]

Seriously if I could afford one i would buy it

Me too, I have wanted one for years.

[madman4570]

Seriously if I could afford one i would buy it

Me too, I have wanted one for years.

Doc, you mean the TKO number is 45 not 450 ????
Those 12ga. 385 Supreme 50 cal sabots run at a TKO of 50 for 20" barrel and 55 for the 24" slug barrel (1850fps / 2000fps)

For a comparison that 500 S&W
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/0 ... 89-500-sw/
That 22" barrel for me! just because it really gives up the goat. Those Double Taps though maybe a little too much?

As stated:

And then there were the 400-grain Double Taps. These monsters sizzled through the chrono traps at 2240 fps, producing a thundering 4,457 lb-ft. of muzzle energy and a Taylor KO factor of 64. This is more energy and a higher KO factor than the storied .404 Jeffery, and only 400 lb-ft. less than a .458 Winchester Magnum! These loads probably push the envelope when it comes to chamber pressure: the fired cases showed signs of primer cratering and flattening, and if I’d handloaded them I’d definitely want to back them down a few tenths of a grain to be on the safe side.

Recoil with the Double Taps was somewhere between a short-barreled 12-guage firing 3″ rifled slugs, and a bolt-action .375 H&H Magnum. Either way…ouch. The Model 89′s thick recoil pad does an excellent job of taming these beasts, at least when firing offhand.

[AJMD429]

The 450 is for 8 rounds onboard; I was musing about total gun payload.

[tman]

A BigBore 94 in .444 is enough energy in a light package for me.

[AJMD429]

Well - turnaround time from order to receipt is now about eight months, so - - - plenty of time to find boolits and so on. . .