A Noisy Wheel Gets The Grease (publicity)- Rossi Q.C.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:10 pm

.

Yet another affirmation, to never buy a Rossi (for one, Remlin another) w/o a hands-on inspection before laying out the gold:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541665

Can I get a witness ? ? .

.

piller · Post by **piller** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:37 pm

I agree, do not buy one sight unseen. I am very pleased with my Rossi, but that does not seem to be the case with many.

wvfarrier · Post by **wvfarrier** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:56 pm

I must've been a lucky one

jazman · Post by **jazman** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 6:57 pm

I think I found the perfect plan on Rossi buying frankly. Contact Steve Young (NKJ), let him know what you desire. He gets it for you, makes it your own/customized however you want it, and sends it to you after you send him some money. Shoots pretty darned good! Perfect! Man, I love my Trapper.

wolfdog · Post by **wolfdog** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:29 pm

I have had 2 older Rossi 44 and both ran and shot fine. One was new the other I got used pretty cheap.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Feb 11, 2014 7:41 pm

jazman wrote:I think I found the perfect plan on Rossi buying frankly. Contact Steve Young (NKJ), let him know what you desire. He gets it for you, makes it your own/customized however you want it, and sends it to you after you send him some money. Shoots pretty darned good! Perfect! Man, I love my Trapper.

+100. That's what I did.

Though my Rossi "Rio Grande" .410 is/was perfectly serviceable NIB/OEM. But then, one doesn't expect a shotgun to shoot like a rifle...

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:22 am

That is patently disgusting. A person should not have to have a gun repaired and repaired and repaired before he / she can use it. Rossi is a purveyor of junk, I learned that the hard way myself some years back with the one ( one and only ) I've owned.
It had to go back to the shop to be fixed BEFORE I could even shoot it. Then it would not stay fixed. JUNK, JUNK, JUNK!
I decided then I'd never buy another one. So far I've kept my promise to myself.

Joe

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 10:54 am

I have owned a half-dozen Rossi 92's, and several friends and family also own them. As far as I know, none of the probably 16-18 rifles I'm thus familiar with have had any functional issues; there are a couple of mine with buttstock fitting that has slight cosmetic gaps, but I see that with most all brands of contemporary firearms. One of my Rossi rifles had a shallow-threaded magazine cap screw that I replaced, but that's about it.

Still, you'd think that when a company inevitably sends out a bad one, they'd take SPECIAL care that whatever repairs or replacement they provided were perfect.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:59 am

I also have been fortunate with my 3 Rossi's -- didn't have major issues though all have been very sensitive to ammo length.

I have had more bad experience with good old JM branded Marlins. I got my first 336A for a very good price because it had "Marlin Jam #1" which means it was shipped from the factory with a poorly shaped carrier. Mfg date on that one of 1950. Next was a 35 Rem 336RS with exact same problem -- mid 80's mfg. date. Next was 2002 mfg. 45/70 which wouldn't feed ammo because of a totally misshaped extractor. I maybe should have sent that one back because it was bought new, but I worked it over until it functioned. When I get hold of a Marlin that works perfectly from the get-go (many of them do, I know) I am always pleasantly surprised.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:08 pm

Pete44ru wrote:.
Yet another affirmation, to never buy a Rossi (for one, Remlin another) w/o a hands-on inspection before laying out the gold:
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541665
Can I get a witness ? ? . .

+1,467

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:11 pm

I got an excellent Braztech Rossi from a fellow levergunner here at the campfire and I am very happy with the rifle. Great build quality and no issues, thus far.

The double revolvers have excellent triggers, so it is unfortunate to hear about the QC issues for Rossi.

I would not paint with such broad strokes...but, yes, caveat emptor.

gamekeeper · Post by **gamekeeper** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 12:27 pm

I had a new S/S 92 Rossi .357 some years ago, never had a problem with it, I wish I'd never sold it.....

jazman · Post by **jazman** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:05 pm

I also inherited a really nice Rossi Overland 12 Gauge SXS Coach Gun that is pretty well my favorite shotgun and home defense tool. Really good fit and finish, beautiful wood (I know, surprise!), and case colored hammers and triggers. I'll have to take a pic of that one someday to post.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 1:51 pm

I have always had good experiences with Rossi rifles, and most people I know have too. The newer guns seem a lot nicer on average than they used to be. I still expect to have to do certain work to any of them - fitting the screws in the for end band and magazine cap, for example, maybe fixing small cracks in the stock in the tang area. Makes sense to replace some springs and smooth the action and get rid of the bolt and the hammer lock. If you are aware of this going in, the majority are pretty good little rifles for the money.

Their US customer service may leave a bit to be desired, but it is a lot better than Taurus, so I'm glad they split it off. I ordered parts for a customer's Taurus pistol 7 years ago from Taurus, three times. I'm glad I re-orderedthe parts from Numrich, because the Taurus parts have yet to ship. I have gotten some parts from Rossi pretty quick, and others a bit slow.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 3:49 pm

I see this as a Chevy/ford thing. Just like the car makers all gun makers make bad ones sooner or later. then you have those that pay $500 for a gun and expect it to be the quality of a high grade antique Winchester.

Rossi has been making these guns for well over 40 years. You would think if they were that bad they would have been out of business by now.

The current 92's are probably the best Rossi has ever made. But, they are still perceived by some to be like the very rough/stiff pre-2000 guns. Rossi had been making these since the late 60's and by the 90's their machines were worn out. To keep cost down and production up they did very little hand fitting. To get them to market they just used excessively heavy spring to overcome the poor fit.
This period through the 1990's was also the height of the SASS/CAS game and they were selling everything they could make.

Another mis-perception is ammo sensitivity. If the gun doesn't run on a particular ammo some folks automatically blame the gun. Most gun folks understand the fact that a semi-auto hand gun can be picky about what ammo it will work with. But, they can't seem to connect the dots to these leverguns. The fact is all leveraction, pump action and semi-auto long guns or handguns are ammo length and bullet shape sensitive.
You don't think about it much if you are dealing with a rifle cal. Most of those are bottleneck calibers. Bottlenecks always feed better than straightwall ammo, whether it is a rifle cal or a pistol cal. That's because you have a small diameter bullet going into a really big hole by comparison, the bottleneck chamber being much like a funnel. The original Winchester 92's were designed to work with bottleneck ammo in the 1.5" to 1.6" OAL with round nose flat point bullets. Ammo like 44-40, 38-40, 32-20 and 25-20. What that means is they don’t always work well with really long or really short OAL's or bullet shapes other than the round nosed flat point profile they were designed for. These problems show up the most with the modern straightwall revolver cals. and it's even more common with cals like 38/357m and 44spec/44mag because of the diverse selection of ammos to choose from.

Bottom line is it may not be a gun problem. These pistol cal lever action rifles are a lot like semi-auto pistols. There's just some ammo it's not going to work with.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:31 pm

Well said Steve!!!!

-Tutt

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 8:47 pm

I have two Rossi 92's a .357 and .45Colt both guns shoot my swc reloads with out any problems. I also have a Rossi 68 2 inch 38spl and have never had it fail me. Nuff said about mine.

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Wed Feb 12, 2014 11:20 pm

J Miller wrote:That is patently disgusting. A person should not have to have a gun repaired and repaired and repaired before he / she can use it.

THIS.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 2:48 am

J Miller wrote:That is patently disgusting. A person should not have to have a gun repaired and repaired and repaired before he / she can use it. Rossi is a purveyor of junk, I learned that the hard way myself some years back with the one ( one and only ) I've owned.
It had to go back to the shop to be fixed BEFORE I could even shoot it. Then it would not stay fixed. JUNK, JUNK, JUNK!
I decided then I'd never buy another one. So far I've kept my promise to myself.

Joe

my exact experience I had with the two Rossi's that I owned. The last one I bought came pre-broken, took it all apart and found the issue...sent it back to Rossi in parts...they fixed it, re-built it, it came back, then I sold it...I'll stick with "JM" Marlin's thank you... :)

jackruff · Post by **jackruff** » Fri Feb 14, 2014 9:47 pm

While I am glad all of my leverguns are Marlins, except for one Henry, my only Rossi is a 2" barrel DA .38 Spc. It is as smooth as can be and always goes bang when I pull the trigger.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 11:42 am

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FWIW, I too have had zero issues with the 2 Rossi M92's I bought (a .357 & a .45 Colt) - but I bought them afet a hansd-on coon-fingering.

Evidently, the fella in my OP here has issues with yet another firearm, a Para 1911 ( http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541796 ) - so who knows ?

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7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Feb 15, 2014 5:09 pm

Pete44ru wrote:.
Evidently, the fella in my OP here has issues with yet another firearm, a Para 1911 ( http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541796 ) - so who knows ?

There is something that has become very clear to me in handling customer service for my own company, and also for another company from time to time when they need help.

Customers who have issues with products, have issues over and over and over with multiple products and multiple companies. I can have a guy who is irately posting on a forum about haw bad a product is, and how bad customer service is, and if I do a search, I can find the same complaints from the same guy about a number of products and companies.

One thing I have noticed is that FedEx, UPS, and USPS never fail to deliver a package, except to someone who already has a problem with a product or the company. Almost 100% of the time that a customer tells us that the package that shows delivered never arrived, it is a customer that has had various other complaints.

When people complain about products and poor customer service, I have found that they almost universally exaggerate the details. If a customer felt a leather holster fit too tight because he did not bother to break it in, by the time he gets to a forum, the story becomes that he could not get a response to multiple emails and phone calls, had trouble getting the website to work when trying to order, shipping took forever, and when he finally got it, he found that quality was horrible, the leather color did not match the photo, the holster fell apart, and when he tried to return it we were rude and told him he did not know anything about using a holster. He will never buy from us again, and he recommends no one deal with us. The truth is the opposite - we responded to every email, the holster when returned was in perfect shape an when tested fits perfectly, and we simply politely explained the proper break-in procedure for a leather holster, which very few shooters actually know.

We have entered the age of the consumer bully. The internet has given individuals the ability to have a much larger voice than ever before possible. This can be a good thing - remember the girl who was killed by a guy who ran a stop sign, who had uninsured motorist coverage with Progressive, who sent their lawyers to defend the guy (who they did not insure) who killed her? The internet brought the story to the attention of the entire world, and progressive finally had to back down.

On the other hand, it gives people the ability to say whatever they want about a company, and it is taken as gospel by everyone. If the company tries to defend its reputation, it is perceived as bullying the consumer.

Right now we deal every week with customers contacting us and telling us what we will do for them if we don't want them to go onto forums, Facebook, etc. and spread lies about us. It is not uncommon for someone to insist that we do something for them, and when we do not, we get a reply with a link to a forum where lies are posted and an ultimatum that we will do what the customer wants if we want it to stop.

If you do a search for our company on Google+, you will find a new review from a customer who purchased a holster on a Friday night, which we shipped the next day (Saturday). Monday he asked for a refund and told us if we did not issue it, he would leave a bad review on Google+ and several forums because he did not have it yet. After he got it Tuesday morning, he ran a chargeback on his credit card, and sent an email that he ran a chargeback and that he was also keeping the holster. He then told us the holster did not fit his pistol. When I asked specific questions in order to trouble-shoot, he admitted he had not actually purchased the pistol, and could not test the holster. After several days, he got the pistol and said that he could not even get the extended, threaded barrel of the pistol to ender the mouth of the holster. His credit card company cancelled his chargeback because he still had the holster, so he cut the hoster so that it could not be resold, and sent it back. When we received the holster, we gave him a partial refund, minus shipping, and then he ran a chargeback anyway and got another refund that way.

We tested the now ruined holster with the same pistol and found that it was a perfect fit. It was clear from marks inside the holster that he had been carrying the pistol in the holster.

Here is the review he left:

These folks sent me the wrong holster and then were rude about it. They were out of the office when their website clearly stated that they were open. I ran a chargeback and then proceeded to get called some pretty ugly things and was forced to read a *** story. Never once were they man or woman enough to admit their wrongdoing. Proceed with caution. They then lied about me when leaving user feedback. I sent them their stuff back and had to eat the shipping.

In my personal experience, the majority of bad reviews found on forums are bogus. Also, they tend to be reposted and referenced until one or two bad reviews are found in so many places that it appears that tons of people are having the same problem. The herd mentality applies as well - once one person posts a negative report about a product or a company, everyone else jumps on board, sometimes claiming the same problems, sometimes just posting generalized criticism of the company.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 3:12 pm

.

Well, it sure looks like this guy falls right into your slot, 7.62 - besides his Rossi & Para issues, NOW he's having an issue with a S&W 686

:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=541900

.

cas · Post by **cas** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:27 pm

7.62 Precision wrote: There is something that has become very clear to me in handling customer service for my own company, and also for another company from time to time when they need help.

This rings true in my experience.

In a related note… in my little online, gun related business I found an interesting, but not surprising thing. In 10-12 years I would say the percentage of my customers who were from my home state, NY, would be somewhere around 2-3 percent at most. But if I made a list of the 10 biggest pains in the butt I had to deal with in all those years, 8 of the 10 people on the list would be from NY. No wonder everyone hates New Yorkers, it's because they deserve it. (3 of those 8 would have been from Long Island, where I probably had 4 customers in total in all those years)

7.62 Precision wrote:"Evidently, the fella in my OP here has issues with yet another firearm, a Para 1911 "

To be fair… while not scientific, I know probably three or four times as many people with Para's with problems than I do those who own them without.

Some people are just bad luck when it comes to guns or any mechanical things, some people bring out the worst in them.

I also think it's how people deal with things. I think of myself as never having bought a bad gun… having owned a couple hundred over the years. I never have any problems. I've never bought a bad gun. I was thinking the only gun I bought with a problem was a Tanfoglio, a most bizarre mechanical problem it would take too long to explain. And that's it! But the more I sit here thinking and typing… well I had to send that Freedom Arms back, and that Ruger and that Ruger, and that Ruger back.. and there was that Ruger that was cast so badly that I eventually spent another $500 on it to make it useful (because I wouldn't dump it on someone else.) And the Winchester with that problem… the Kahr that went back with the broken slide, the S&W that revolver had hitch, just like this other one… and the S&W 22 that keeps breaking springs… the 657 I have with the poorly indexed barrel… which reminds me of the M14S that had the poorly indexed barrel… and I just got my XDs back from the recall….. lmao.
Those all came to me as I was sitting here. But my initial response would have been to say "I never have problems with guns." Just different kind of folks is all. If I have a problem, I deal with it. If I can't fix it I live with it or find someone who can.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:59 pm

.

Yep - Plenty of cry-babies online............

.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:00 am

cas wrote: But if I made a list of the 10 biggest pains in the butt I had to deal with in all those years, 8 of the 10 people on the list would be from NY. No wonder everyone hates New Yorkers, it's because they deserve it. (3 of those 8 would have been from Long Island, where I probably had 4 customers in total in all those years)

Its funny, the majority of or problem customers come from just a few states: Michigan, New York, Maine, Connecticut, New Jersey, Maryland, and Louisiana.

We have plenty of great customers from each of those states as well. But when I read an email from a problem customer from one of those states, I can usually peg which state the customer is from based on the email. What we deal with from each of those states is consistent within that state - our problem customers from MI are impatient know-it-alls who are better than everyone else in the world and have a chip on their shoulder about it. The ones in NY cannot be pleased, and by the way, I need to break the law for them. Customers in LA are super picky and spastically excitable - nothing meets their expectations.

This is not the norm with customers from those states, but it is the norm with problem customers from those states, and most of our problem customers come from those states.

Unfortunately, problem customers are becoming the norm in all states now. I used to say that I loved working in the firearms industry because everyone I dealt with was great to work with. In the last year-and-a-half, though, it has become very bad. We are dealing with rude, hateful customers daily. The senseless chargebacks are killing our profits. I spend a considerable amount of time helping a customer choose a product which they then buy from someone else, often at a higher price.

A lot of this is because the firearms world has been flooded with new firearms owners. The majority of people I am working with no are new to firearms or (new to holsters because they are carrying for the first time). This is a good thing. They are just new to the industry and are bringing their Walmart/Burger King attitudes to it.

Another part is that a LOT of liberals are getting into shooting for the first time. These are people that we have not seen in this industry for a long time. This is also a REALLY good thing. Shooting should not be limited to conservatives. But they tend to have a different attitude about working with people, and we are not used to being treated that way.

Finally, political uncertainty, financial uncertainty, and panic buying has put people on edge, and they get uptight and take it out on the very people who are trying to supply what they want.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:28 am

I am sure there are some crybabies out there, but there are a lot of legitimate claims too, and probably a lot more legitimate claims then crybabies. There are plenty of company's out there that would rather fix or replace a percentage of problems then slow down production to get it right in the first place.

Company's want to hit a price point, and will sacrifice quality control to get there sometimes, and now days they use too many MIM parts which result in early breakdowns, etc. Kimber does that. Ruger has pretty bad quality control, I have a lot of Ruger singleactions, and they are golden when right, but they let a lot of them get out the door with issues. Smith and Wesson has had their periods of quality control issues, too. They you have the Winchester rebounding hammer miss-fire problems, the Marlin Jams on the 1894's, those are all real problems and I don't blame people for getting upset when they end up with one. It cost money to send a gun back to the factory, not to mention the aggravation.

There a plenty of lemons out there. As far as the Rossi's I guess I bought two of the real rough ones several years ago. I made my dealer take both of those back, as they were jamming pieces of junk with every bullet configuration I could come up with.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:49 am

Having spent the last few years dealing with internet (and other) marketing I would say that the majority are definitely not legitimate claims, at least with any decent company.

AND, a big part of bad reviews is improper use, improper diagnostic, or improper expectations for the product.
VERY few people lube their firearms. And don't tell me all guns should be able to run dry. You don't run your car without oil, why would you run your AR without oil?
A lot of people shoot poor handloads. The wrong factory ammo can cause problems. Just today I was talking to someone about the problems he was having with his pistol, a quality pistol from a quality brand. He was having approximately two malfunctions with every 10 rounds. The first thing I asked was what ammo he was using. The answer was the aluminum cased Blazer. I told him to try another ammo. He had not even considered it.
People buy a cheap bolt action and expect 1/4 MOA groups. People buy cheap scopes and expect S&B performance. People buy Hi-Points and want them to be HKs.
People buy Rossis and don't clean the heavy shipping oil off of them, and wonder why they are sticky in the cold. People short-stroke their shotguns, ride the bolt forward on their semi-autos, limp-wrist their pistols, and then complain about the manufacturer.
The big thing we see is that people buy military accessories or rifles built to military specifications, and then complain about every dent, ding, or mold mark, as if it were a fine Italian shotgun.

Part of the problem to is as you said, so many companies have everything built poorly in China. I was looking for someone to build a scope with some reticles I designed. A company showed me a scope built in China that they were willing to put my reticles in. Retail on the scope would be around $200, and the cost for the scope after importation from China was just under $30. Of course it was not what I was looking for.

Think about it: If I bought scopes for under $30, and had to replace 1/3 of them for defects or failures, I would still make a lot more money than if I sold scopes for $600 that I payed $450 for with a 2 % replacement rate. The reality with the $200 scope is that a lot of people who had failures would not bother to return.

There are a lot of products these days that are not designed to work, only to sell.

As far as MIMed parts, they are fine if built and used correctly, and for the correct purpose. A lot of the bad press MIM parts get is not justified, but it comes because of misunderstanding combined with justifiable concerns due to some manufacturers using substandard parts.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:07 am

One thing that is hard for us to remember sometimes is that while most of us here were taught to shoot by experienced shooters, and have been shooting a long time, there are a lot of new shooters right now, and also shooters that are new to certain types of firearms, that are not experienced and have no training, and who don't know what to expect or how to properly use and maintain the firearm.

The lack of training and experience often leads to problems that are instead blamed on the firearms.

JB · Post by JB » Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:48 pm

I don't think the amount of time a company has been in business is any indicator that their products don't have problems. On some websites you'll get flamed by owners of Heritage Rough Riders for suggesting they aren't the cream of the crop in 22LR's, but I've found them to be pretty low quality. I'm not suggesting Rossi is junk by any means, but the one's I've had weren't super high quality either.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 12:12 am

JB wrote:I don't think the amount of time a company has been in business is any indicator that their products don't have problems. On some websites you'll get flamed by owners of Heritage Rough Riders for suggesting they aren't the cream of the crop in 22LR's, but I've found them to be pretty low quality. I'm not suggesting Rossi is junk by any means, but the one's I've had weren't super high quality either.

Kinda validates Steve's (Nate Kiowa Jones) comments. I don't expect $1,000-1,500 worth of quality in a $500 gun. Ergo, the fact that all three of my Rossi's needed some smoothin' and adjustin' to run fast (as a full stroked lever action is capable of fast), neither upset nor surprised me. I'd shot a bone-stock Rossi mdl 65 (their predecessor to the M92), and one that'd been slicked up before I ever ordered the 1st one for the wife.

I'll buy a cheap (inexpensive) product, not expecting very much... and am usually quite surprised at just how much quality there is... on occassion. I recently purchased an AR scope for $79 at Wal-Mart, because... I wanted a scope the next morning... and it was after midnite. After sighting it in... seemed it liked to be adjusted backwards, but... @ $79 for a 1-4x24 scope with mount and illuminated dot... what should one expect? I was surprised it had both green AND red illuminated dot settings! AT ELEVEN intensity levels! I was ready to throw it in the trash after the 2nd range trip yielded inconsistent adjustments, and some major aggravation... After arriving at home and turning the rifles over to my son for cleaning while I dealt with the pistols and brass... he noticed that both the mount and scope rings were loose... Now... mind ya... I don't have the foggiest idea who was responsible for THAT!

But... after gettin' 'em tight, and re-sighted in... my son was not hesitant in tellin' some character that complained that his $1,200 scope was junk, as he couldn't get any repeatibility after changin' power levels with his "XXXXX" brand, big-name scope that I'd just shot the same courses of fire with a $79 scope... Shots from 75 yards to over 300 and back again...

I have a sayin', "...you know what they say about folks that complain? They get labeled 'complainers'... And nothing good ever happens to complainers."

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:32 am

Griff wrote:
JB wrote:I don't think the amount of time a company has been in business is any indicator that their products don't have problems. On some websites you'll get flamed by owners of Heritage Rough Riders for suggesting they aren't the cream of the crop in 22LR's, but I've found them to be pretty low quality. I'm not suggesting Rossi is junk by any means, but the one's I've had weren't super high quality either.
Kinda validates Steve's (Nate Kiowa Jones) comments. I don't expect $1,000-1,500 worth of quality in a $500 gun. Ergo, the fact that all three of my Rossi's needed some smoothin' and adjustin' to run fast (as a full stroked lever action is capable of fast), neither upset nor surprised me. I'd shot a bone-stock Rossi mdl 65 (their predecessor to the M92), and one that'd been slicked up before I ever ordered the 1st one for the wife.

I'll buy a cheap (inexpensive) product, not expecting very much... and am usually quite surprised at just how much quality there is... on occassion. I recently purchased an AR scope for $79 at Wal-Mart, because... I wanted a scope the next morning... and it was after midnite. After sighting it in... seemed it liked to be adjusted backwards, but... @ $79 for a 1-4x24 scope with mount and illuminated dot... what should one expect? I was surprised it had both green AND red illuminated dot settings! AT ELEVEN intensity levels! I was ready to throw it in the trash after the 2nd range trip yielded inconsistent adjustments, and some major aggravation... After arriving at home and turning the rifles over to my son for cleaning while I dealt with the pistols and brass... he noticed that both the mount and scope rings were loose... Now... mind ya... I don't have the foggiest idea who was responsible for THAT! But... after gettin' 'em tight, and re-sighted in... my son was not hesitant in tellin' some character that complained that his $1,200 scope was junk, as he couldn't get any repeatibility after changin' power levels with his "XXXXX" brand, big-name scope that I'd just shot the same courses of fire with a $79 scope... Shots from 75 yards to over 300 and back again...

I have a sayin', "...you know what they say about folks that complain? They get labeled 'complainers'... And nothing good ever happens to complainers."

Funny how negative things seem to happen to folks that live in the negative. It's almost like they will it to happen. Had an Ex like that. She would be convinced that bad things were going to happen and subconsciously did things to actually make those bad thing come true

jazman · Post by **jazman** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 6:56 pm

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:Funny how negative things seem to happen to folks that live in the negative. It's almost like they will it to happen. Had an Ex like that. She would be convinced that bad things were going to happen and subconsciously did things to actually make those bad thing come true

I am a firm believer of this statement too; negative people attract negativity like day follows night.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Feb 18, 2014 11:34 pm

7.62 Precision wrote:Another part is that a LOT of liberals are getting into shooting for the first time. These are people that we have not seen in this industry for a long time. This is also a REALLY good thing. Shooting should not be limited to conservatives. But they tend to have a different attitude about working with people, and we are not used to being treated that way.

They do seem to be a crowd that loves to blame others when things don't go well, instead of just figuring out what is wrong, and fixing it themselves, or finding someone with the skills to do it for them, and asking them for help, vs. just blaming and 'lawyering up'.

cas wrote: Those all came to me as I was sitting here. But my initial response would have been to say "I never have problems with guns." Just different kind of folks is all. If I have a problem, I deal with it. If I can't fix it I live with it or find someone who can.

Well, I guess cas must not be a 'liberal'...

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:58 pm

All I know is when I posted my initial Rossie problems here, one of the very first places I was directed to was a website of known operations issues with the rifle. The second thing I was told was to send it to Nate to "tune it up". Sorry, that's not negativity attracting negativity. Those are design issues so well known that a website is built around them. And the excuse "you get what you pay for" is little more than a cheap cop-out after the fact when it should have worked in the first place, or they should have charged more to ensure it did.

I'm fine with the fact that people have good firearms from Rossi. Congrats. But it's pretty poor taste to start blaming those that have problems as being negativity magnets when it's undeniable fact that the first remeedies are so well known, they're almost listed off as wrote.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:38 pm

There are many firearms that work fine as they come from the factory, but have certain well-known things that can be done in order for shooters to get the most out of the firearms.

Every Rossi I have seen and handled, which is quite a few, but not nearly as many as some of you, could be used is is out of the box without any major issues.

For someone who wants the most out of the rifle, there are certain things that can be done to make them better, but it does not necessarily mean that Rossi should do all of these things in the production of the rifle.

I will hold that there is a place for these rifles, just as there is a place for $1,000 '92 clones. Not every shooter can afford a $1k + rifle. Some people buying these rifles want several calibers or configurations. Some struggle to afford even a $500 rifle.

I don't carry Kel-Tec pistols, I carry a slightly more expensive pistol, but not a really expensive one. Some people struggle to afford even a Kel-Tec pistol. For a person in that situation, a Kel-Tec can be a reliable, affordable pistol that can be smoothed up nicely by the owner with a little work. The Rossi R92 is the same.

I don't like the added safety on a Rossi, nor do I like the added safety on a $1500 Winchester or $600 Marlin Levergun, so I remove them. But if I did not remove the Rossi safety, I could still use the rifle just fine. I remove the lock mechanism in the hammer - I think it is poorly executed - but if I did not, I could still use it fine. I replace the sights, but I could use the factory sights. (by the way, I replace the factory sights on most rifles, including my Winchester and Marlin lever guns). The springs can be lightened and action smoothed, but the rifle still functions reliably if they are not. If I never take off the stock and forend (most shooters never do) there is no need for me to worry about the alignment of the screw holes.

So those things that most people recommend doing to Rossis are not usually necessary for reliable function, only to turn a $500 rifle into an $800 rifle. People also recommend kits for common pistols for short reset or lighter triggers, aftermarket grips for 1911s, different stocks, grips, and handguards for ARs, etc.

If you go to any AR forum, every time someone posts, "Just got a new ------ AR-15!" The following replies will be recommendations for what should be changed to make it better for whatever purpose - triggers, grips, sights, stocks, magazines, etc.

The Rossi R92 is generally a solid rifle at the price it is at. At $900, I would not consider it so. But it allows people to afford multiple rifles, or maybe just that one they could not afford if it were $900. For a lot of people, time is cheaper for them than money, so it make a good base for a rifle they can improve.

I was in college working minimum wage once and struggling to pay my bills. If my rig broke, I was finding ways to fix it myself at the lowest cost possible. After a bit of that, I went back to AK to work between semesters. Wages back then for me were only about $24/hr, but I was working 7/12s with two or three days a week ending up 18 to 22 hr. days. I bought a Bronco 2 with some problems. I was working after work to figure out the issues, getting very little sleep, thinking I needed to take a bit of time off on a couple slower days to fix it, and my dad told me, "Just take it to the Ford dealer and pay them to figure it out." This surprised me, since he had always taught me to save money and do things myself. He asked me how much I made. I told him, "$24/hr." He asked me how much the mechanic at the dealership made. I told him, "Around $12/hr." He told me,"Then let that mechanic fix it at $12 and hour instead of waisting your time at $24 an hour, and he will do it in half the time."

If you are the guy who's time is worth too much to worry about tinkering with a rifle, then you will probably be better served with a $1000+ rifle. But if you are the guy who figures you have more extra time than extra money, or you are just frugal and like to fiddle with guns, then smoothing up a Rossi or five makes a lot of sense.

My boys have Rossis, my wife has two, my girls will get some, and I have worked on a lot for customers (don't ask me to slick them up for you, guys - it isn't what I do and I will just refer you to http://stevesgunz.com to have it done right). There are a number of firearms I won't recommend due to my experience with them. The Rossi R92 is not one of them.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Wed Feb 19, 2014 7:42 pm

Forgot to mention, if I go on any CAS forum and post about any levergun from any manufacturer, or any revolver from any manufacturer, I will immediately get a list of recommendations on what needs to be done to any firearm to tune it up.

The idea that it should come tuned and cost a lot more does not make sense. There are other rifles that can come tuned and cost a lot more. There are a lot of people who could not afford any '92 style rifle if the Rossi came all slick and tuned and cost $1200.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Feb 20, 2014 12:17 am

Besides, that (producing them all slicked up and competition ready), would eliminate the specialty market that specializes in that service... probably a LOT better than can be done at the factory. Why do you think even factory sponsored shooters have their guns worked on by various armorers... not only the factory guys.

Why do military armorers BUILD their own versions of the very fine rifles the factories produce for snipers and specialty units? Simple, they know what their unique requirements are... and are fully capable of producing guns that exceed the capabilities of the any specific factory.

Berretta produced a supposedly "race-ready" 1873 specifically for CAS... priced accordingly... but... it didn't set any sales records... even tho' it was acknowledged to be quite an improvement over their standard production gun. Just as folks love their Geiselle 2-stage triggers in their AR, I happen to prefer my Chip McCormick... and even tho' I have an AR with each... the CMC tripper performs better... for me.

I love my EMF Rossi M92 in 45 Colt... but another guy seems to think mine's rather clunky... I can't help it if he's nuts. No... it ain't as smooth as my wife's; which rivals just about any original, but I didn't want it to be... So, I feel there's a good reason to buy a "stock" rifle and then remake it into what I think it should be... not some factory.

Just as I love my '55 Chevy... I happen to think that it's far better now with a 350TPI & 700R4 power train and 4-wheel disc brakes than the factory version... sits lower and with siffer springs and gas shocks at each corner, the lower center of gravity makes it perform better... both when I want performance, AND, when just driving up to the grocery store!

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 3:17 am

Being a competition shooter for a fair chunk of my younger days, I totally understand the difference between a stock gun and a race gun, but IMHO, when one buys a gun, even the most casual shooter, he should be able to expect that gun to work, without sending it off for high dollar mods. The sights ought to be durable, and mounted on the gun straight, and the trigger pull ought to be at least down in the usable area, and not feel like you're dragging a flat bottom boat over a shoal, before the gun goes bang. And above all it should feed, fire and eject on a fairly regular basis, and it should do it for a long time, before parts start to break.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 5:53 am

Lastmohecken wrote:. . . but IMHO, when one buys a gun, even the most casual shooter, he should be able to expect that gun to work, without sending it off for high dollar mods.

Which is generally the case with a Rossi rifle. They are not the prettiest, smoothest, or nicest '92 clones, but they are solid and affordable. They can be made prettier, smoother, and nicer, but they generally work as they come.

If you want a high-dollar rifle, you have to pay high-dollar prices. For some people, an affordable '92 clone, even if a bit rough, is very attractive.

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Fri Feb 21, 2014 11:19 pm

7.62 Precision wrote: On the other hand, it gives people the ability to say whatever they want about a company, and it is taken as gospel by everyone. If the company tries to defend its reputation, it is perceived as bullying the consumer.

- once one person posts a negative report about a product or a company, everyone else jumps on board, sometimes claiming the same problems, sometimes just posting generalized criticism of the company.

I feel your pain...most of us have dealt with those kinds of people. Especially those of us in government, and unfortunately there are more government co-workers who are "chicken littles" than there are citizens and tax-payers who are.

But I'm distressed that you think the rest of us can't recognize those folks and filter out their bull.

If I'm considering a purchase on eBay or GunBroker, I look at a person's feedback. Then I look at their responses to feedback left by others. Then I look at the feedback they have left for others. If there is negative feedback involved, I review that person's feedback. If they leave smart aleck answers or responses...they will treat me the same way, and they don't get my money.

It takes a while, but you can tell who's shooting straight if you put a little effort into it. This is the reason people with low feedback are scary. Not enough evidence one way or the other. You email or call them to see if they respond appropriately. If they don't, they don't get my money.

So I understand there are a lot of whinebags with nothing better to do than grouse and complain, but we know who they are.
I've only publicly complained about one manufacturer, who made a product that would not function correctly and could or would not fix it, and will gladly show documented evidence to anyone who requests it. Including their QC department, if they cared, but they don't....so they don't get any more of my money.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 4:56 am

vancelw wrote: But I'm distressed that you think the rest of us can't recognize those folks and filter out their bull.

I don't think this about everyone, but there are many who can't or don't bother.

There is a product I am involved with that is an extremely good product, one of the best of its type. Precisely because it was so good, there were problems with fit on certain inferior firearms. About half a dozen people made it their crusade to attack the product in every way they could, and that handful of people effectively destroyed the reputation of the product.

The impression is that many, many people had problems, but the reality is that when I investigated all of the claims about the product, almost all came back to those few people or others quoting them.

In the example I posted above, the review left by the guy about the holster we sold him looks legitimate. Google will not let us argue it or refute it. Google created a Google + page for our company and put that review on it. We can't even touch the page, though it looks like it belongs to us - it actually belongs to Google. Even a discerning person has no reason to disbelieve it.

egumpher · Post by **egumpher** » Sat Feb 22, 2014 7:56 am

FWIW, my Rossi 38-357 eats and ejects any ammo I feed it. I've shot well over a thousand rounds through it without any problems.

The Browning design is very robust and will tolerate a fair bit of manufacturing variance.....it has/had to....because in the 1890s manufactures had their own company standards for production. There where no other standards back then. They set the standard.

Rgds
Eric