Need some help - Original Winchester 1894 and AI 25-35

[lever- believer]

Hello Guys,

I used Fathers Day as an excuse to purchase an original 1894 Winchester (1908) which was 25-35 and was moved to 25-35 Ackley Improved in the distant past. I feel like I got a good deal on it for $500 with a vintage peep sight that came with it. I know nothing about the AI cartridges. I would love to use this a deer rifle. 26" Octagon barrel.

Can anyone tell me more about reloading and brass for this guy and if anyone has experience with this combo. Now for the gratuitous pics:

[PriseDeFer]

I have no information to give you. But as beauty is good for the soul I must thank you for posting those photographs. It's a lovelly thing you have
about you now.

[olyinaz]

That is just lovely, and at a price that I would never see where I live. Very nice!

With a 26" barrel and the improvement that you get with an AI chamber, I suspect that you'll easily bag some meat with it if she can group reasonably. Someone will be along shortly to offer useful advice.

[earlmck]

I haven't had the opportunity to load for the 25-35 in either regular or improved version but have loaded for the 25 Remington which is very similar to the 25-35AI in capacity and pressure range. As a 25 Remington guy I was surprised at the loads and velocities shown in Oly's table. So I looked at them in the ballistic program "QuickLoad". The short story is that "Quickload" thinks those loads in Oly's table are from somewhat over to well over 50,000 psi. Loads which I'd be hesitant to put into an elderly model 94, thought I know that Mr. Ackley considered that the straighter case could handle more pressure than the original tapered case because of lessened bolt-thrust.

[Pete44ru]

.

Nice "self-gift", sometime the best kind !!

The Ackley Improved cartridges are made from standard casings in the various original chamberings via fireforming (like .30-30 & .25-35) - so, if you don't feel like, or don't handload, or run out of ammo on a trip somewhere, the "Ackley Improved" rifles will always still chamber/fire the standard commercial cartridges. (And take a deer just as readily)


If/when you want to reload your fired emptires, then you'll need a set of .25-35AI dies, of course.


.

[2LT Van Cott]

Ok. Neat gun. You can use standard .25-35 ammo in the gun which will fire form it. You'll then have cases from which you can have dies made unless you find a set on one of the boards or auction houses. CH Tool ought to the be the least expensive but some people have a brand preference so that's up to you. You should be able to get performance that moves the 117 gr. RN at about 2600 fps but every gun is a bit different. The BIG thing is that your brass will last a LOT longer.

[ollogger]

I wish to heck I could run across a deal like that !!!!!!!
Ive got two 25-35s but no AI, one may get the chance to be a AI some day

nice gun thanks for pix

my Ackley books got lost in a move years ago


ollogger

[BenT]

You Lucky Dog!
The 25-35AI has the same case capacity as the 250 savage. The 250 savage operates at a max of 45K CUP. So most starting data for 250 should be fine, work up from there.The 25-35 AI was the most improved of all the AI cartridges. the standard 25-35 case holds around 36 grains of water while the AI hold 45 grains of water , verses the 25 Rem which is 43. New 25-35 brass is thin and the shoulder might split when fired in the AI chamber. Most people size down 30-30 or 7-30 Waters brass. when using 30-30 brass you will have to inside neck ream because of the excess brass in the neck after sizing down.

The hard part is bullet selection, since most 25 caliber bullet construction is designed for 25-06 velocities. So the standard 117 gr round nose is about it. I would suggest you go to the "shooters forum" website hosted by bear tooth bullets. William Iorg is the 25-35 guru over there and has lots of info posted. He uses the speer 100gr hollow point on his Texas deer out of a Thompson Contender.

Your going to have lots of fun a head of you getting this dialed in. In fact it might just be too frustrating , so just send that rifle to me and I will gladly reimburse your $500. The 25-35 is my next gun project as soon as I find the right donor rifle. I don't have dies to loan you. The best I could do is sized down 30-30 brass with the 25 Rem dies I have and you could fire form those. Either way you will need a set of 25-35AI dies to keep it fed.

You are now off the main highway of standard cartridges, most levergun cartridges exist on the backroads. Which is fine with most of us. Good Luck!!

[Sixgun]

I haven't had the opportunity to load for the 25-35 in either regular or improved version but have loaded for the 25 Remington which is very similar to the 25-35AI in capacity and pressure range. As a 25 Remington guy I was surprised at the loads and velocities shown in Oly's table. So I looked at them in the ballistic program "QuickLoad". The short story is that "Quickload" thinks those loads in Oly's table are from somewhat over to well over 50,000 psi. Loads which I'd be hesitant to put into an elderly model 94, thought I know that Mr. Ackley considered that the straighter case could handle more pressure than the original tapered case because of lessened bolt-thrust.

Earl,
I'll agree to that. I was also looking at it and said to myself," How in the heck can they get .257 Roberts velocity out of an expanded 25-35 case in a lever action? Someone's gonna eat steel".

[bsaride]

I have been considering the 30-30AI and you should check with midwayusa to see if they have dies.

[olyinaz]

I haven't had the opportunity to load for the 25-35 in either regular or improved version but have loaded for the 25 Remington which is very similar to the 25-35AI in capacity and pressure range. As a 25 Remington guy I was surprised at the loads and velocities shown in Oly's table. So I looked at them in the ballistic program "QuickLoad". The short story is that "Quickload" thinks those loads in Oly's table are from somewhat over to well over 50,000 psi. Loads which I'd be hesitant to put into an elderly model 94, thought I know that Mr. Ackley considered that the straighter case could handle more pressure than the original tapered case because of lessened bolt-thrust.

Thanks Earl! I was hoping you'd chime in with some QuickLoad info. I'm not surprised to hear that they're hot coming from Mr. Ackley's handbook, and I would hope that the note and caution at the top is well heeded.

Can you tell us where the pressure and velocity falls if those loads are reduced by 10% (and if that's a safe reduction)? Those are max loads for single shots and strong/newer lever guns.

[earlmck]

Can you tell us where the pressure and velocity falls if those loads are reduced by 10% (and if that's a safe reduction)?

I played around in "QuickLoad" a little more. First thing I noticed was that there is a possible error in my version of QuickLoad, showing a COAL of 2.85" for the AI whereas the standard is shown with a COAL of 2.55", which is what you'd also be loading the AI version to unless you'd also had some action alterations. Changing the COAL to 2.55 would put all those Ackley table loads into the "blue pill" range of well over 60K psi. But to be fair to Ackley, he was undoubtedly using some round-nosed or flat-nosed bullets that we don't have ready access to these days and that I don't have in my QuickLoad bullet database, that would have resulted in lower pressures.

Reducing charge weights by 10% brought everything but the H380/100 grain load down to under 50K psi, and it brought the 100 grain loads with all the IMR powders down to the low 40K's where they ought to be as max or close to max loads.

With the 87 and 90 grain loads the 10% reduction still leaves them in the 50K vicinity, so maybe a little on the hot side.

I also notice that the 25-35 AI round has virtually the same case capacity as the 250 Savage. The Savage, however, is generally chambered in rifles intended for the 50K psi pressure ranges. So maybe starting loads in the 250 Savage would be a good place to look for upper end loads in the 25-35 AI?

[william iorg]

Dr. A started one of the best 25-35 reloading threads . The thread is old but the information is still relevant.

http://www.shootersforum.com/handloadin ... loads.html

Another 25-35 thread.

http://www.shootersforum.com/handloadin ... pment.html

I prefer the 100-grain bullets for the 25-35 and have taken a few meat deer with the Speer 100-gr JHP. I feed this bullet through the magazine of my Model 94AE.
I load to about the same velocities as the shooters of the 1930’s through the late ‘40’s but using modern powders. These velocities are considerably higher than today’s published load data. My rifle is a modern angle eject Model 94


My 25-35AI is a 24” Thompson Center Contender. This is a very good varmint and small deer cartridge in the contender.
I have shot my TC rifle side by side with two 250 Savages and while not a fair comparison - the 250’s have 22” barrels and the TC the 24” barrel - I have easily exceeded published 250 Savage velocities with all bullet weights. I’ll admit I am loading to high pressure.

http://www.shootersforum.com/wildcat-ca ... sited.html


From a personal perspective I would not do anything until I had loaded the 100- and 117-grain bullets with a variety of powders. You may find you do not need to do anything other than load with modern components.
I wish I could locate a few more of the blunt nose, 100-grain Nosler partitions. These shot well in my rifles.
I don’t know how big your deer are but take a look at the 100-grain bullets. The Speer 100-grain JHP penetrates well for me and kills quickly.
If you still need an Improvement I would look at the 25-35 Tomcat by Francis Sell or the .25 Bellum. Either of these is a more mild Improvement.

[Bill in Oregon]

Lever: Mister, you know how to treat yourself for Father's Day! All I did was go to an old tractor and engine show.
I once owned a 94 in .25-35 with the same configuration as yours and it was a complete delight to shoot it. I just used the 117-grain Hornady RN and 3031 and never looked back. Wish I still had that rifle. The Ackley chamber reduces the collector value, but increases the rifle's utility. P.O. was famous for listing loads that would scare a prudent man, so Earl's findings are not a surprise.