OT- The Original Bowie Knife?

[GANJIRO]

I see SO many knives which claim to be a "Bowie Knife" yet they look so different from each other. Even at THE ALAMO on my trip to San Antonio last month I saw several "Bowie Knives" on display each one unique. I want to purchase a very reasonable fact simile to Jim Bowie's original knife, is it possible to identify the shape and size of the very blade that Jim Bowie carried at the ALAMO? If anyone here has an answer could you please post a picture of what you feel is THEE Bowie Knife that was at the ALAMO. Thank you.

[20cows]

From Wikipedia:

The historical Bowie was not a single design, but was a series of knives improved several times by Jim Bowie over the years.

The most famous version of the Bowie knife was designed by Jim Bowie and presented to Arkansas blacksmith James Black in the form of a carved wooden model in December 1830. Black produced the knife ordered by Bowie, and at the same time created another based on Bowie's original design but with a sharpened edge on the curved top edge of the blade. Black offered Bowie his choice and Bowie chose the modified version. Knives like that one, with a blade shaped like that of the Bowie knife, but with half or more of the back edge sharpened, are today called "Sheffield Bowie" knives, because this blade shape became so popular that cutlery factories in Sheffield, England were mass-producing such knives for export to the U.S. by 1850, usually with a handle made from either hardwood, stag horn, or bone, and sometimes with a guard and other fittings of sterling silver.

Bowie returned, with his knife, to Texas and was involved in a knife fight with three men who had been hired to kill him. Bowie killed the three would-be assassins with his new knife and the fame of the knife was established. Legend holds that one man was almost decapitated, the second was disemboweled, and the third had his skull split open. Bowie died at the Battle of the Alamo five years later and both he and his knife became immensely famous. The fate of the original Bowie knife is unknown...

This one apparently had the clip point I've always associated with a Bowie knife.

[20cows]

I looked over on e-bay and found a Bowie Knife exactly like the one I've had for over 30 years.

At 13.1/4 in overall with a 8 in. blade, I find it a little big for general use and don't carry it often.

[Charles]

I doubt if you will ever find agreement on the subject of just what the original knife that Black of Washington Arkansas made for Bowie. Some years ago, looked like. Raymond Thorpe wrote a well researched book on Bowie and the knife. He deduced the blade was probably about 1/4 inch thick and 14 inches in length. It was something on the order of a long bladed hand ax.

Bowie's original design was a modified and beefed up long blade butcher knife. It was to this design that Black added the top edge.

It would take something like this to split a man's skull down to the teeth as Bowie did. One of the early accounts of someone seeing Bowie's knife said the sight of it was so fearsome that the thought of the point of it at a man's stomach could make a grown man fearful.

Bo Randall made such a knife patterned after Thorpe's research. I have not seen a Randall catalog in some years, but it was called the Thorpe Bowie. I once had one and it was indeed a hunk of steel.

But, like I said...there are many different notions. For shure and for certain, it had a second sharpened edge on top of the blade that went back 1/4 or 1/3 or so of the blade. That is the one feathure that makes a Bowie a Bowie.

I don't know if Throrpe's book is still in print, but it is a good one to have.

Robert Abels the famous New York Arms antique Arms dealer and collector had (at one time) the best early Bowie collection in the country. There was a book published of his collection that is also well worth hunting down a copy.

I have both Thorpe's book and Abels book and neither are for sale.

[Ysabel Kid]

Ji -

I doubt there will ever be 100% agreement on what Bowie's actual knife looked like. Safe to say that a large blade with a concave point on the top edge (versus a spear point) is what most people refer to and envision when they say or hear "Bowie Knife". After that, I'd go with the handle and guard style that you like the best!

Post a picture when you get one!

[GANJIRO]

I'm curious not only of the blade size and shape but also the handle shape and material. One thing that stuck in my mind about the various Bowies on display at The Alamo was coffin shaped handle. I'd like to know also what shape guard if any they had. If I wanted to purchase a Bowie as close to what Jim Bowie carried at The Alamo what in you gentlemen's opinion would come the closest? Please post a picture if possible. Thank you for the response so far.

[barbarossa]

Here is a pic of a replica of the moore bowie knife.According to the story this knife was picked up after the battle of the Alamo by a mexican soldier whose job was to load the bodies on the pyre for burning.He went back the next day and retrieved the knife.It was then given to a Sheriff Moore in exchange for a debt years later.It remains in their family to this day.Search for Moore Bowie knife.



THIS REPLICA WAS MADE BY THE FRANKLIN MINT

[Comal Forge]

Dr Jim Batson wrote a definitive book on the subject. You may want to google his name and look for any info on him. He also is a life member of the American Bladesmiths Society and has built knives that replicate Bowie's design. In addition, the movie, The Iron Mistress, starred Alan Ladd and showed the Randall version.

Prior to Bowie, most of the frontier knives were either a long rifleman's pattern or the Green River style that was carried by the fur traders. The Spanish had a design for a large knife called a belduque, which was really a short sword. Since Bowie was close to the Spanish community (eventually marrying a Spanish woman) some folks believe he took the influence from several places.

Basically, the originals were believed to be simply big heavy knives with a cross guard and a false edge on the back. After he became famous in the Sandbar Fight and the Alamo, everyone wanted one so both American and British manufacturers turned them out in huge numbers. At that point, the design went all over the place because everyone claimed they were making the "original". Dueling was later outlawed in many cities because the 'bowie knife" craze killed or maimed so many young men who felt obliged to pull steel at the slightest insult. The Bowie pattern was not made to skin deer or peel potatoes, it was designed to kill men in close quarters, which is why it still carries that deadly look.

The blade that Rezin Bowie (Jim's brother) left to posterity looks different from the Moore knife but he probably had it made after the thing became famous. Jim Bowie was quite a firebrand and must have been a real fighting man. I wouldn't have crossed him - even without a knife.

[mescalero1]

Ganjiro,
Google up an Ontario/Bagwell the Gambler model; I think it is the most accurate

[Old Savage]

Ji, I have read a lot on the Bowie over the last almost 50 years. I ordered two when I was a kid. Since they are not sure what the real one looked like as you have read I take the liberty to choose the one that I want. But, I haven't been able to decide in the 20 years or so since I began to look again. I want one like one of the ones I had as a kid but haven't found it. Bear makes and interesting one and you might look at Randall.

As an aside here is the one I have used to split chickens since 1975, I call it the "Chicken Splitter" Dexter calls it a breaking knife - it isn't a Bowie but a useful big knife.

I will be interested to see what you pick.

[Old Savage]

Look at rjohn94s post on Do I want a 45-70 - nice one there. Randall?

[rangerider7]

I got this bowie years ago. I don't much about them, but this one looks to have some age. Can anybody tell me more? The sheath was made for me much later.

[Charles]

Rangerider... It certainly has the look of a 19th century knife. Is the blade hollow ground or flat ground? It sorta looks hollow ground to me, but it might be the light.

[wm]

I am not an expert on knives or their history but based on the little bit that I have read I almost think the original Bowie was a cross between a machete and a short sword.

Wm

[Texican]

Basically, the originals were believed to be simply big heavy knives with a cross guard and a false edge on the back. The Bowie pattern was not made to skin deer or peel potatoes, it was designed to kill men in close quarters, which is why it still carries that deadly look.

May I say: Excellent post.

I'd like to add my bit of folklore; Take it for what it is. My scout troop camped with the Texas Army a few times when I was a kid. They are a historical reenactment group of muzzleloaders focused on Texas History. I told by some of their members that the Bowie had a brass backstrap along the spine of the blade. The softer brass allowed the wielder to better 'catch' an opponent's edge for a more effective parry. Also, I was told that the false edge wasn't false; it was sharpened. A tactic of Bowie was to roll his knife quickly over onto the top of his opponents right hand striking it with the top edge severing the tendons of the thumb. Unable to grasp the knife, the opponent was disabled without having to kill them. I can't substantiate any of it but I enjoyed the telling of it (and shooting muzzleloaders, throwing knives, etc.) on the banks of the Brazos.

[samsi]

Ji, I have read a lot on the Bowie over the last almost 50 years. I ordered two when I was a kid. Since they are not sure what the real one looked like as you have read I take the liberty to choose the one that I want. But, I haven't been able to decide in the 20 years or so since I began to look again. I want one like one of the ones I had as a kid but haven't found it. Bear makes and interesting one and you might look at Randall.

As an aside here is the one I have used to split chickens since 1975, I call it the "Chicken Splitter" Dexter calls it a breaking knife - it isn't a Bowie but a useful big knife.

I will be interested to see what you pick.

The design of the "Bowie knife" evolved steadily over the years, initially by Bowie's brother Rezin, who employed various blacksmiths during his refining of the design, but the pic you've posted here is very similar to what is believed to be the first one. Can't find a pic at the moment, but it still exists in someones collection.

[Comal Forge]

Here is a belduque (I hope the link works). Add a guard to it and you get a pretty good facsimile of a Bowie pattern.

[Griff]

I understand that both Jim and Rezin Bowie carried a fairly wide variety of knives in their day. I've seen and read of both the one Rangerider7 and barbarossa show as being "original" bowies. I've heard the same story Rangerider7 relates as to how the Moore Bowie is thought to be THE knife Bowie was carrying when he died at the Alamo.

And, since none of us have that time warp machine, we can't go back and do a visual inspection! If we did, and could, I would probably be more interested in taking stuff with me, not what knife he had that day.

[JP_TX]

This could be bad information but I have heard or read that the original Bowie, in addition to all the typical design features had 1/4in brass strap brased to the spine just behind the top cutting edge.

This was apparently a fighting knife mod to catch the opponents blade and keep it from sliding back to the guard when perrying(spell?) during a fight. And now that i recall it was to add weight which would help in cleaving a man's scull.

I think I may have actually seen one made this way as well but it must have been back in the 60's. I've slept some since then.

One last memory, if the legend is fact then it was made from "Stainless" steel as a piece of a meteor was alloyed into the steel to make the knife. Meteor's are frequently only iron/nichol nuggets when they hit the earth. Legend has it that was why the knife was so tough and resisted breaking during any of Jim's fights.

I remember reading a story, must have been 40 years ago, of a knife fight to settle a score. Two men straddle a log facing each other and had their pants nailed to the log. Armed with knives they held a handkerchief in their teeth between them and fought it out till one was killed or dropped the cloth.

Braver men than I.

Loved that movie "The Iron Mistress" Haven't seen it in years.

JP

[gundownunder]

There must have been a fair amount of weight in the blade of the original knife if it was able to split a mans skull, so the idea of a 1/4"thick x 14" long blade would probably be a good one and even then the man would have needed some good upper body strength to wield it with enough force.

Since I've passed my USMC Kabar to my son so he can go hog hunting with a bow and arrows, this is the closest thing I've got to a big knife. I bought it at a camping store about 25 years ago. Made in Japan, stainless, 3.5" blade and thoroughly usefull as a general purpose field knife.
If I ever get into a situation where I'm forced to fight some machete wielding barbarian from places north of Australia I'm just gonna have to show him why they say that only fools bring a knife to a gunfight.

[Charles]

JP-TX..... While not common, there have been examples of 19th. Century fighting knives with brass strips on top of the blade toward the rear. The purpose was as you discribed..to catch and hold an opposing blade.

In the 60's I had a Randall Raymond Thorpe Bowie with just such a brass stip set into the top of he blade.

[mike454]

I remember a few years ago, one knife expert indicating one like this was as likely as any other to be the original.
http://www.bladegallery.com/shopexd.asp?id=3667

[alamogunr]

Bo Randall made such a knife patterned after Thorpe's research. I have not seen a Randall catalog in some years, but it was called the Thorpe Bowie. I once had one and it was indeed a hunk of steel.

But, like I said...there are many different notions. For shure and for certain, it had a second sharpened edge on top of the blade that went back 1/4 or 1/3 or so of the blade. That is the one feathure that makes a Bowie a Bowie.

I don't know if Throrpe's book is still in print, but it is a good one to have.

Robert Abels the famous New York Arms antique Arms dealer and collector had (at one time) the best early Bowie collection in the country. There was a book published of his collection that is also well worth hunting down a copy.

I've got several old Randall catalogs and there are 4 or 5 variations of Bowie designs shown. All are fearful looking weapons. I also have the Abels book and almost every design you could imagine is pictured. I would love to have the Thorpe book too. I'll try the book search sites.

[alamogunr]

Look at rjohn94s post on Do I want a 45-70 - nice one there. Randall?

The knife in the picture is a Randall #1. Almost as famous as the Bowie. Initially designed during WWII by Bo Randall.

[JP_TX]

Its kind of funny to me now. Back then it was hard to walk into a gun shop of any size that didn't have a stock of knives behind the glass counter and it seems that there was alway and outsized "Bowie" replica.

Some were shiny bright with mock ivory handles others were more plain with simple unfinished walnut. But they all seemed like a characature to me at the time.

But that was before I found out that the dimensions of the actual Bowie were 14in with a 1/4" thick blade. Seems like those knives were scale of some kind.

A fighting knife that big is a very strange almost laughable thing to see, but then I was never on the business end of one either so it was easy to laugh at it.

The closest thing I've seen to it recently was the Rambo jungle knife that Stalone used in his movies.

[alamogunr]

.

Robert Abels the famous New York Arms antique Arms dealer and collector had (at one time) the best early Bowie collection in the country. There was a book published of his collection that is also well worth hunting down a copy.

I've got several old Randall catalogs and there are 4 or 5 variations of Bowie designs shown. All are fearful looking weapons. I also have the Abels book and almost every design you could imagine is pictured. I would love to have the Thorpe book too. I'll try the book search sites.

I mis-spoke! The book I have is by Norm Flayderman. Both the Thorpe book and the Abels book are apparently unavalable.

[Comal Forge]

Its kind of funny to me now. Back then it was hard to walk into a gun shop of any size that didn't have a stock of knives behind the glass counter and it seems that there was alway and outsized "Bowie" replica.

But that was before I found out that the dimensions of the actual Bowie were 14in with a 1/4" thick blade. Seems like those knives were scale of some kind.

A fighting knife that big is a very strange almost laughable thing to see, but then I was never on the business end of one either so it was easy to laugh at it.
The closest thing I've seen to it recently was the Rambo jungle knife that Stalone used in his movies.

As in other activities, a couple extra inches can make all the difference...

[Comal Forge]

With all this talk about Bowie knives, I went through my archives and found my copy of a first edition of Knife Digest, published in 1974. Lo and behold, the first article is about the Bowie:

There is a lengthy quote attributed to Rezin Bowie, where he states in part, "The first Bowie knife was made by myself...as a hunting knife; for which purpose, exclusively, it was used for many years. The length of the blade was 9-1/4 inches, its width 1-1/2 inches, single edged and blade not curved..."

He then goes on to describe in plain but direct speech, that he loaned it to Colonel James Bowie, who used it only as a defensive weapon to save his life after being shot down in "a chance medley, or rough fight". He also states, "The improvement in its fabrication and the state of perfection which it has since acquired from experienced cutlers, was not brought about through my agency."

There are also two pictures of particular interest; one is of Rezin Bowie's personal knife, which was made by Henry Schively of Philadelphia and later given to Jesse Perkins. It has a 10-1/4" long by 1-13/16" wide blade that is 1/4" thick and the back is not sharpened. The second picture is of the Alamo Bowie, which was likely made in the 1830's by Searles of Baton Rouge. Other comments in the article would lead one to believe this is not claimed to be Jim Bowie's personal knife but is definitely a period accurate piece.

It is interesting to see that these early Bowie knives do not have cross guards but are simply large, heavily constructed butcher knives. However, later knives that were made after Bowie's death at the Alamo do show cross guards, although most are straight or S-shaped and none have the pronounced "C" configuration seen on some modern recreations, purportedly designed to entrap an opponent's blade. These later blades also often have a sharpened back clip. There is no mention or photograph of brass inlays to catch a blade but of course, there is nothing to dispute that feature either.

My limited knowledge of knife fighting technique concerns avoiding the blade and making a bloodletting cut with every swing but I'm sure there are schools that focus on trapping the blade. In all likelihood, Jim Bowie was desperately trying to save his own life on the Vidalia Sandbar and his will to live after being shot compelled him to use the knife in basic and deadly fashion. Other exploits attributed to him may be more legend than fact...

[Dog]

I saw this thread the other day but hadn't registered for this good forum yet. Took me a few to get back to it.

I wanted to note: Gun Digest 2006 had an extended piece on the history of the Bowie knife, "Unsheathing an American Legend: the Bowie Knife" by Norm Flayderman, p 44-61. At the end of the piece is a note from the editor which reads "This article is a heavily edited compilation derived fro two chapters appearing in Norm Flayderman's latest book, The Bowe Knife: Unsheathing an American Legend." There is an address and a website from which to order the book:

www.flayderman.com and/or www.manatarmsbooks.com

The piece in Gun Digest has a bunch of very nice photographs. The author's thesis is that the term "Bowie Knife" started out as a generic term (like "hunting knife"). The author states that in 1835 several ads appeared in print advertising "Bowie Knives" and that these ads represent the earliest documented uses of the label. Prior to this, "they were just called by other names: belt knives, longknives, hunting knives, daggers, rifelmen's knives, dirks, scalping knives, sheath knives and the very popular, all inclusive butcher knives." The photographs show a wide variety of shapes and sizes.

Hope this helps those interested follow up their passon for historical blades.

[Ysabel Kid]

Dog - welcome to the fire!

Ji, I'll try to take a photo of some of my Bowies this weekend and post it. None can claim the "original" mantle - because none can period. But all fit the bill in one way or another for me!

[sore shoulder]

[Ysabel Kid]

Sore shoulder - now that's a knife! I like your tastes bud!

[Ysabel Kid]

Ji -

As promised - and I am sorry for the delay - here are the knives in my collection that I'd call "Bowies":



This is my favorite, and what comes to mind whenever I hear the word "bowie knife":



It is made by Western, and I've had it for 20-25 years. To me the "S-curve" guard just says "fighting knife"!

This one was my father's, and though not a classical bowie, it does have a recurve blade:



Yep, you guess it - I got this one after "First Blood" first came out:



I picked up this Winchester working bowie last year from Sportsman's guide:



This one is also one of my favorites - I love the bone handle and Damacus blade:



Lastly, this one is often referred to as a "primative" bowie:



Hope this helps!

[ScottT]

[FWiedner]

.

Not that it matters, and I confess to a lack of expertise, but this image posted by YK most closely resembles the knife that I once read Mr. Bowie carried at that time.

[Griff]

Discriminating tastes in Rifles AND Knives, hmmmm.... methinks there's more to this ScottT character than meets the eye! Very nice collection. Thank you for sharing.

This is nowhere near the quality of a Blackwell, but does the job when properly applied!

[ole pizen slinger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxJ0_DW9 ... re=related

[GANJIRO]

Ji -

As promised - and I am sorry for the delay - here are the knives in my collection that I'd call "Bowies":



This one is also one of my favorites - I love the bone handle and Damacus blade:



Hope this helps!

Thank you very much sir, all those knives are beauties but I must agree my favorite is also the Bear MGC Damascus, will probably pick one up one days after a find a steady decent job. I did notice that several of the Bowies displayed at the ALAMO had coffin handles and i've been looking for them but the ones I see on Ebay I get outbid on regularly so stopped trying. Thanks again!

[GANJIRO]

Okay fellas. what do you think of this one? It has a coffin handle and slim long blade like the ones I saw at the ALAMO if I recall correctly.

THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE INPUT!

[20cows]

I like the looks of it.

[samsi]

Okay fellas. what do you think of this one? It has a coffin handle and slim long blade like the ones I saw at the ALAMO if I recall correctly.

THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL THE INPUT!

Looks good to me, who's the maker? ('cause I need more big blades)

[Old Savage]

That'll do! Has all the character whether it is correct or not to the original.

[Ysabel Kid]

Atlanta Cutlery sells one very similar to that one Ji!

[old goat]

...Can't tell from the photo, but that looks like the Cold Steel Laredo bowie.

...old goat

[sore shoulder]

It looks like a Cold Steel Laredo Bowie.

[Pete44ru]

The earliest "bowie" knives were actually butcher-style knives, supplied to the American Frontier mainly by firms in England, like Sheffield.

[GANJIRO]

I thought the Brits got into the act after the Alamo to cash in on the Bowie name and mystique. I was looking for something as close to what the Alamo defender(defenders) carried.

[coyote nose]

Wow! After reading all this I feel so inadequate! I carry a small pen knife on me!
Great post!

[airedaleman]

The earliest "bowie" knives were actually butcher-style knives, supplied to the American Frontier mainly by firms in England, like Sheffield.

Forty-odd years ago I was helpimg my father re-plumb an empty apartment over a store front in Lyndhurst, NJ (my home town, God help me!). In some debris I found the blade with tang and cross guard of an English Bowie. Someone had used it to scale fish! I grabbed it, took it home, and cleaned it up. The guard appeared to be German silver, and the blade was engraved with an eagle bearing a banner that carried the words "General Taylor Never Surrenders." On the ricasso (?) was the maker's mark Samuel C. Wraggs Celebrated Dirk Knife Sheffield England.
It went in a trade somewhere, along with a Randall Bowie that I traded half of a Marlin 1894"Bureau County" musket. I wish...etc!

[Old Savage]

Just yesterday ordered a Bowie in stag from Sheffield - I'll be able to have it for father's day.

http://www.sheffield-cutlery.com/bowieknives.html

You can see it here by scrolling down.