WARNING: Grenade F/S on Gunbroker ! !

[Pete44ru]

This is a major gun dealer (Wild West Guns), selling a rolling block chambered in .308 Winchester - which has at least 2x the operating pressure ANY rolling block (even the 1902 7mm's) was designed to accept.

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =293571558

Please - Do NOT be tempted !

.

[earlmck]

WARNING: Grenade F/S on Gunbroker !

Whoa! Are you sure about this grenade part, Pete? Reason I'm asking is:
A: Over the last 50 years there have been a lot of these 7x57 rolling blocks rebarreled to modern cartridges and
B: (the biggy for me) I have one that was rechambered to 284 Win to clean up a bad chamber.

I was under the impression this was a stout action. Can't remember why I always "knew" that, but I maybe I hadn't worried enough about my 284 beast. I've had mine over 40 years. Not that it gets shot a lot, but it does get shot occasionally. What is the state of knowledge about the strength of these things?

[OLBIKER]

My Dad had one chambered in 30/06.I could not guess how many rounds he fired through it.

[Old Ironsights]

When I lived in Anchorage I used to spend a lot of time down at Jim's shop - back when he was just getting started ('92-'95)

If Jim built it, I trust it. He's not one to sell something that hasn't been thoroughly proofed.

[Pete44ru]

Well, you can pay your $$, and take your chances. I most definitely would not. (aka: yes, I'm sure about it.)

FWIW, the design limitations for ANY rolling block (even new Pedersoli's, etc) is for a maximum operating pressure of about 35,000 PSI - well below even very mild .308W/.30-06/.284W loads - with absolutely NOTHING to stop the breechblock, etc, from blowing straight back into the shooter's eye.

Even the 1902 7x57 rollers wear out if shot too strenuously/long.

For a peek at the perils of shooting CF ammo, especially modern high-pressure stuff, in old rifles, I would humbly suggest a thorough end-to-end read of this thread, over on ASSRA:

http://www.assra.com/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB. ... 1340046856

The discussion starts about cast iron actions, but later on, diverges - and worth the read if you intend to risk your head.

Jes' sayin'

.

[Rusty]

Life is short enough, why take extra risks?

I'm convinced.

[Buck Elliott]

In all my years, I have never seen a rolling block that suffered the kind of catastrophic (explosive) failure warned against in the OP.. I have seen several with cracked or split (even "blown") barrels, and split receiver rings..

I have also seen a goodly number of them with peened cross-pin holes and/or stretched receiver walls. The design and strength of the breech block and the rolling locking block make an explosive failure of either one a very remote possibility, and would not have anything to do with action strength, per se, if such should occur..

Yes, it is always better to be safe than sorry, but panic, paranoia and apocalyptic prophecies serve scant purpose in these discussions..

Even in the Ballard incident, cited and referenced above, the damage occurred laterally, and the barrel was propelled down-range, being no longer held by the receiver..

COULD such a devastating failure occur, as outlined in the OP..? the answer would be a very qualified and extremely remote yes... ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN, to anyone, at any time.. Carelessness and stupidity seem to aggravate the eventualities, in many cases.. But we can't live happy and meaningful lives, or learn much of anything, if we are in constant fear that the sky may fall at any moment, or that we should be powerless against it if it did.. Advancements are made only by those who are willing to push the envelope..

[awp101]

In all my years, I have never seen a rolling block that suffered the kind of catastrophic (explosive) failure warned against in the OP.. I have seen several with cracked or split (even "blown") barrels, and split receiver rings..

COULD such a devastating failure occur, as outlined in the OP..? the answer would be a very qualified and extremely remote yes... ANYTHING CAN HAPPEN, to anyone, at any time.. Carelessness and stupidity seem to aggravate the eventualities, in many cases..

While not exactly germane to this exact to this conversation, the second rifle here shows what can happen: http://dutchman.rebooty.com/RBfailure.html

There is a more in depth discussion that I can't find ATM but the short version is a shooter in Sweden (IIRC) found a 12.7x44R Husqvarna RB in his late Grandfather's possessions and ammo of mixed caliber, age and quality. It's suspected he stuffed a .500NE class round into it and pulled the trigger after firing a few test rounds of legit 12.7x44R. The block split in two and came to rest in his head after passing through his right eye. The shooter later died (2-3 days later IIRC).

[Buck Elliott]

Stuff Happens... No doubt about it..!

Unfortunately life has difficulty discerning ignorance from stupidity, and so, the penalties for both are usually the same -- or at least similar..

I remember back in the '50s, when suddenly, every .38 or .44 caliber '92 Winchester in reach was eyed as a candidate for conversion to the then-new .44 Remington Magnum, the "most pwerful handgun cartridge in the world.." Many self-styled gun gurus opined, loudly and openly, that the poor little Winchesters would blow up, or stretch, or bulge, or whatever other calamities they could envision.. Well, the idiots and the ignorant managed to bend one, occasionally, and those whose guns had merely been rechambered from WCF to .44 Mag had their share of difficulties.. Just enough to keep the rumor mill going, and lend scant credence to the loudest of the "told-you-so" crowd.. Meanwhile, savvy gents such as P.O. Ackley and Ward Koozer rebarreled '92s as fast as they could, and set them up right, and had no problems..

Funny thing is, those particular 'smiths -- and others -- also converted rolling blocks to a host of hot-shot target and varmint rounds, including the .220 Swift, and a stack of .219 Zippers and Wasps that were loaded to unheard-of pressures, to be able to wring every possible yard out of those old relics..

Some people seem to be next of kin, or at least next-door neighbors to Mr. Murphy, and probably have him in for dinner somewhat regularly.. He rubs off on folk...

[Ben_Rumson]

Buck I'm sure glad you spoke up.. I was tempted to post the below last time this topic came up...but it didn’t look to be the right time... But now we’re talking Rollers...

Excerpts from a letter in DOPE BAG September 1953 issue page 70 AMERICAN RIFLEMAN... where a writer refers to P.O. Ackley's well known tests of the strength of various military actions.. "Ackley also tested other actions including an old pitted rolling block action from a 50-70 which Ackley barreled up in 30 06 Improved and started running his high pressure tests through it....”Ackley finally started getting more notable results when he reached a duplex load of 30 gr. Hi Vel # 2 combined with 30gr 2400 and bulged the barrel, but the action still held.. Finally on the 20th shot with that load the action broke in two from the back of the barrel down through the breech block pin...He (Ackley) says compare that to the 1903 Springfield's which generally blow up on the first shot with that load..
He (Ackley) went on to say that he used a similar action that had been barreled in 11 mm (a common cal. for the olden days) rebarreled it to 375 H&H Mag. Tied it to an old tire & fired 10 rounds thru it with no apparent damage..
There was a comment from Gen. Hatcher that detailed some of the tests on rolling blocks in old Government reports .. One of which was placing a bullet on load of black powder and repeating that until the barrel was half full then firing it .... Reporting the action still held...

AFAIK Hi Vel#2 = the old IMR 4895
I only know of two US made rolling blocks types chambered in 50-70... Both made in the 1870s... No expert here at all... but I believe Remington actions were case hardened forged steel... not iron...The barrels also were steel...

[Buck Elliott]

Thanks for tbe more detailed reminder..

Remember: ANY gun can fail, given the right circumstances..

[earlmck]

”Ackley finally started getting more notable results when he reached a duplex load of 30 gr. Hi Vel # 2 combined with 30gr 2400 and bulged the barrel, but the action still held..

I'm glad you dug that info up, Ben. I was overexerting the old brain trying to remember what I thought I had always known about the Rolling Block being quite strong. Was thinking it must be via Ackley, so I went to his book where he loaded the military actions until they blew. Nothing in that book about so testing a Rolling Block. But I'm guessing I had seen that reference you are quoting somewhere along the line.

I know Ackley and other gunsmiths put some pretty potent cartridges in these Rolling Blocks and I had not heard of problems with them. Ackley was the type of fellow to load 'em until they blew just to see. Everybody has "opinions", but when Ackley had an opinion on action strength he probably had some test experience to back it up.

Pete, I appreciate your efforts in reminding us to think about what we are shooting. But there is a world of difference between a cast-iron Ballard and a Remington Rolling Block.

[KWK]

Layman's recent book on military rollers says the French WW-1 jobs were later reproofed for Balle-N. That should be about the breech thrust of a .348 WCF -- pretty stout.

That said, I'd never fire one in .308, nor with Balle-N. My .30-40 won't be loaded much above 33,000 psi.

[Hawkeye2]

The listing was modified yesterday:

"Information added 7/3/2012 1:58:15 PM
We have determined that this firearm is not safe to shoot in its current configuration/calibre, and must be rebarreled. As a consequence, we will remove tha barrel before shipping and the buyer will be required to execute a non shooting statement. Current bidders may cancel their bids if they so choose. Sorry about the confusion"

[Buck Elliott]

Aka: CYA...

[olyinaz]

Aka: CYA...

Yep!

Oly