"AK" platforms???

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 6:43 pm

Ok, another question about a semi auto rifle. On the AK platform, as a bug out firearm (I know, just go with it) the AK is considered a very capable platform. Of the current weapon importers, which ones are good and which ones not so much? Folding stock or not? I had a Romanian one years ago and I let it get away from me. It was a full wood stock version. I know the AKMS version, with it's metal stock might be a light rou on the cheek but I'm considering one. Are these a should have firearm? How is the current production of century arms as far as quality? Anything else I should consider?

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:17 pm

I had one of these in 7.62x39. It is the most accurate AK variant I have ever owned, but it is not light. These are the top end.

http://www.gunauction.com/buy/11020931/ ... ags.no-res

There are a few NIB ones still available, in various calibers/configurations, from Robinson Arms. http://www.robarm.com/veprs.aspx

wecsoger · Post by **wecsoger** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:17 pm

There's a gazillion versions of the AK action all over the place. Even if I told you to pick "X", "X" may have a early, middle and late model version depending on where the importer was getting the kit parts.

So saying, most of the ones I've dealt with have been rock solid dependable for going bang. I have even seen badly put together kits, (even mine) still function.

That's the good part.

The downside, unless you're off a rest or prone (hard to to with a 30 round mag!) dependable accurate hits in 'the heat of battle' aren't gong to be reliable past 50 meters or so.

Folding stocks, especially the original style, well, really suck. Not solid, and they'll beat you to death.

There's a wealth of aftermarket stocks, from folders and the AR-15 CAR style available everywhere. Ditto for accessories, enough for your heart's desire and wallet capacity.

For a short range, urban area or 'truck gun', they're fine.

Visuals, they're a lot more menacing than a Win 94, even if the latter is tricked out 'tactical'. And they hold more ammo, by a factor of 5.

My background, I own, well a couple, and have put together, well, a couple. Still have some kits in the garage that I need to get to, sometime.

wecsoger · Post by **wecsoger** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:35 pm

Addendum to above.

You have to know that the AK platform is central to the Soviet theory of warfare. Take an illiterate or semi-literate group of peasants, men who don't know the meaning of the word fear, or personal hygiene, give them a cheap-to-produce functional weapon and throw them en masse at a tactical problem.

Say you've got a hilll with ten defenders, the Soviet commander will send a hundred men up that hill. If ninety get killed and they still take that hill, he figures he came out ahead.

If you get one, try for a chrome lined barrel. That helps in cleaning when there is still a lot of really crappy surplus ammo out there.

There are the stamped sheet metal receivers and the milled steel receivers. You'll quickly see the difference in prices. The stamped sheet metal will hold up well enough for you for any reasonable amount of firing.

If you think it's inaccurate with semi, try one full auto. So stay away from any ones with the "third hole" or 'special parts' kits. Other than the legalities of the issue, full auto is fun, noisy, expensive and burns through a lot of ammo. Quickly.

Don't spend a lot of money on customizations. If you want a bug-out gun go for the basics, use the rest of your dollars on ammo, mags and something to carry the mags in.

You'll probably regret getting rid of that Romanian (sorry) Most of the original SAR-1's were pretty good guns. There are a lot of good kits that have been built up on the Romy "G" kits. Those, if well put together are good guns. (I should know!)

That's all over the place, but post any any more questions.

And I think we can derive some lever gun content in here, since the 7.62x39 is pretty close in ballistic numbers to the 30-30.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 7:48 pm

Mike, I'm not up on the current crop of AK's other than Saiga. I bought a Saiga 12, 12 Gage and converted it to the standard AK grip and trigger and added a folding stock using the proper amount of US parts. It's a great shot gun! What I like about Saiga's is that they come in .308, .223 & 7.62X39 as well, they are Russian made AK's that have been modified "Sporting" to get in the country, if your half handy, converting them to what they are meant to be is fairly easy.

Before conversion

After Conversion

A few years ago I bought a Century Arms Golani, it is a Galil clone in .223 The folks at Century from what I gather put out a hit or miss product. I got lucky with mine, it is very accurate and 100% reliable! While I live in Vegas I don't thing I would gamble with another Century product though.

My two AK's that I will never sell, I have had for around 20 years. They were considered very good AK's back then. Bulgarian Arsenal SA-93 & a bit newer SLR 100H that was made from a new Bulgarian Arsenal forged receiver and Hungarian parts kit.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:04 pm

wecsoger,
Thank you.
Beside myself, you are the only person I have heard address the accuracy issue in open forum.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:26 pm

AK accuracy varies by caliber.

The 5.45mm AK-74 currently issued in the Russian army is considerably more accurate than the old -47s, a function of both ammo improvement and general inherent accuracy of the round itself.

Fixed stock AKs are the easiest to shoot, the the folding-solid-stock design (current Russian issue) is about the best of both worlds.

The old AKMS stocks weren't comfortable, and with enough use, wobbled.

The Romanian and Polish folding stocks weren't good either.

Current production: Arsenal or anything made by Izhmash/Izvhesk (converted Saigas) are the best quality you're going to get, they're either Bulgarian, U.S production or Russian.

Century guns are assembled by drunken monkeys with sledgehammers. They go bang, but they are only slightly better than Darra-built examples.

A good AK can effectively make hits at 150m without serious issues and any moron can make hits at 100m. Keep in mind these are 3-4 MOA guns. You won't get tiny groups, but you'll get hits.

Friend of mine who both owns a cheaper AK and has shot them and been shot at by them can effectively hit a man sized target every time out to 200m, but he's a good shot. I wouldn't vouch for past 150 for most, and about 100 under combat conditions.

As the Soviet principle was hammer them with artillery, then mortars, then tank guns and machine guns THEN the infantry went in.... they figured it would be a short range affair, as armies have been aware since about 1915 that most firefights happen at 50m or less, maybe 100m, with 300m being the outside limit simply due to not being able to see anyone past that.

Submachine guns were only introduced because the US and German designers couldn't figure out how to make a light enough portable automatic rifle that actually worked for those distances, and intermediate cartridges did not yet exist.

Look up the Fedorov. Russia had the idea a LONG time ago.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:05 pm

I don't care for under folder stocks but love the side folders, as far as accuracy goes, hitting the 200 meter Ram consistantly is no problem. AK's are not tack drivers but an IHMSA ram is fairly big. Never shot under combat conditions but I would imagine accuracy would diminish with whatever you might have at the time. Plus inaccurate arms are no fun to shoot or keep.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:07 pm

Odd,
My SKS is quite accurate.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:41 pm

Just need a few early model Chinese (not norinco) SKS's (need about 3)
Need about 5 tins of 440rd canned ammo

Too bad couldn't have got em back when they were $100@pop(I did)

Myself, I like (in bug out situation)having 30 loaded strip clips in a small leather shoulder pouch.(basically only weight/take up space of ammo)

Done/did the AK route only to find (for just all out use)plain wood stocked Early Chinese or Russian SKS

You would be surprised how fast you can do the stripper clip deal. Besides try fitting (10)30rd mags in a little shoulder pouch.

Still probably gonna grab the Colt HBARs first though.

Otherwise---AK47(give me an older good shape Russian full wood stock one)

Good Luck.

Don't forget couple short barreled 870's with plenty of 00 Buck ammo (if it goes to brush/dark) also.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:44 pm

Would you believe $69.00?
Thats what I paid for it.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:45 pm

after you have "bugged" out...and after the ensuing firefight...just pick one off the ground... :O

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:46 pm

Good luck with that.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:48 pm

MrMurphy wrote: Century guns are assembled by drunken monkeys with sledgehammers.

SAR2 (5.45x39) with Bulgarian side folder:

Franken-AK:

It's a mish-mash of Yugo, EG, Egyptian (IIRC) and US parts to give the appearance of a rifle that came straight from the Balkan conflicts of the 90s. And it has an upper handguard now...

As I recall, the Soviet standard of accuracy for the the AK was 6" at 100m. Massed firepower and lots of it was the Soviet doctrine.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 9:56 pm

Mescalero wrote:Would you believe $69.00?
Thats what I paid for it.

Where I worked they employed many workers that were South Vietnamese(many fought in their army)during the war(and most said)the best weapon under EXTREME conditions was the SKS and also MUCH more accurate.
I mean this is coming right out of their own mouths.??????

They used to laugh and say it was an improved shortened M1 Garand

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:01 am

The best quality and most accurate AKs seem to be the Russian VEPR made by Molot.
The have the heavier sidewall actions, like the RPK.

Jack

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 1:32 am

Arsenal is good, anything from Rifle Dynamics out of Lost Wages, NV is going to be good no matter what it started life as, the Polish Tantal is cheap and good, Norinco AKs are actually good.

The Romanian stuff seems to be the worst right now. I just bought a Polish under folder mostly because I picked a similar one up on the battle field and carried it for week or so once upon a time and I'd always wanted one, so... Despite being a Century gun it shoots just fine but the under folding stock is terrible for everything except making that rifle daggum small (and it really does do that amazingly well).

Not much to be done about the inherent accuracy of the rifle and most ammo out there (as another stated, they're 3-5" guns at 100 yards), but you can put Tech-Sights on 'em and make a huge improvement on how they shoot and Hornady makes ammo that might seriously improve what your AK can deliver (varies by rifle of course).

The SK-74s and other 5.45mm rifles are more accurate, possibly more fun to shoot (depends what you're shooting of course), and the ammo is dirt cheap.

The SKS is definitely more accurate in my experience and they have a really neat action and a longer barrel for improved ballistics. I wish they'd made a 5.45mm SKS! Be sort of a poor man's Mini-14.

The Israeli Galil and Golani Kalashnakovs can be really nice, but you need to buy them with a function guarantee because you don't know if who assembled them did it right. If they're original Israeli they'll be great and you'll know it because they'll be thousands of dollars. Same goes for Valmet Kalashnikovs - thousands of $$ but super premium, very nice rifles that are also often in standard NATO calibers.

I've not anything bad about the Russian guns from Saiga and VEPR, with VEPR being a premium unit but both are often somewhat non-standard so not all AK accessories and parts will fit. There are a lot of aftermarket parts made just for the Saigas however. A "converted" Saiga is a rifle that has been returned to standard AK configuration.

Beware of the buggered up AKs that only accept 10 round mags of non-standard design. They'll need to be converted to use standard AK mags.

In short, I love military semi-auto rifles of pretty much all sort and I've owned many over the years, but Kalashnikovs are by far my favorite. They're so much daggum fun I'm sure the liberal loons will make 'em illegal soon! So run out and get one.

Oly

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:36 am

I personally am not a fan of the AK platform. I just don't like them, but won't argue that they are fine fighting rifles and reliable as well. I much prefer an SKS. If you have an AR-15 and either an AK or an SKS, you have a rifle that shoots the two most widely available types of ammo in the world, which is a big plus for a CHTF scenario.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:29 am

Valmet M76!

The Finns don't screw around !

I have a Century Arms Yugoslavian under folder that is a blast to shoot. Always goes bang.
Not going to win any bullseye matches but darned fun, but like others have said my SKS's will shoot circles around it. Especially the Russian carbine.

Salvo, love that .12 gage!

jb

wecsoger · Post by **wecsoger** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:02 am

I'm thinking as far as a bug-out/truck gun, my criteria would be

=> something cheap
stamped sheet metal receivers, wood stock, no customized add-on's
no big loss if I need to ditch it, bury, hide it or throw it away
still would retain a lot of trade value
=> something that if I need to I can make a lot of noise and dump a log of ammo quickly downrange
for breaking contact on an ambush
again, visuals, the silhouette is instantly recognizable
magazine clamps are available, although heavy you can have two 30 round mags at the ready
the four mag pouches are dirt cheap, one or two of those loaded with a shoulder carry strap is a good grab 'n go option

Ever see one of the monkey tribes hootin' and a hollerin' at each other, trying to intimidate of seeing who can make the loudest noise? Sadly, a lot of warfare over the years has not changed much with the continuing efforts of one side trying to set themselves up as the ones to make more noise and impact than the other. The AK is *perfect* at that in small unit actions. Not horribly accurate, but it does make a lot of noise.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:10 am

I prefer the M16/M4 as i've had one in my hands most of my adult life, but my first semiauto rifle was a Romanian SAR-1, and it shot more than accurately enough to get the job done.

The 10-round AK's are WASR-10's, made during the ban. A friend (who didn't know any better, and has been suitably instructed now) bought one. Henderson Defense (who along with Krebs and Rifle Dynamics are the AK gunsmithing equivalents of Wayne Novak or Cylinder & Slide) converted it to the standard configuration, replaced the trigger and insured the sights were on straight, etc for about $80. Now shoots much better. Still about a 4 MOA gun, but it handles better.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:52 am

I know you asked specifically about an AK, and there's nothing wrong with one, but at today's cost for a decent one, and your intended purpose, I think you might want to consider a Kel-Tec SU16. About the same cost, uses AR mags and the ammo is much more available than 7.62x39, in addition to more rounds for the same weight. Which is an important tactical consideration, and is the reason Russia and China followed our doctrine, and one of the main reasons special operations did not adopt the 6.8 SPC. It folds up very compact, is very light weight and piston driven (for those who buy into the problems with an AR op system). Otherwise I think for a bug out rifle the most practical is an M4 type. Most practical because its the platform with the largest supply chain for parts in the US.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:03 pm

I think sore shoulder nailed this one.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:13 pm

Thanks for the feed back. I have a LMT in M4 config and more mags and ammo I want to try to carry. I also have a 308 platform in semi and bolt. I was Seeking feedback, and received excellent quality feedback, on the platform. I saw an under folder and thought it would be a bunch of fun, especially with a drum mag and 75 rounds When I gotnhome and posted this, I was then thinking if the AK would be a better platform then the M4 I think as a beater truck gun it may very well be. I have a bunch invested in the M4. Having a beater is about the only viable spot I have in the genre of firearms. Thanks for the ideas and now I will ponder the input.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:28 pm

A new AK is most likely going to need refinement. The newest ones have poor barrels on them as the take-offs that had been used in the kits are all gone and the new ones are bargain basement quality. As noted earlier, an American assembled AK is hit and miss.

One sure sign of a poor build is to pull the bolt carrier and see if the gas piston is fixed or wobbles on the carrier. They are supposed to wobble. To cut corners, some builders will simply run it up tight and weld it rather than run it in to spec, drill, tap, bolt, and grind the bolt flush with the carrier.

The AK is a simple machine and even a poor build can be salvaged, but your best bet for one to run as-is is to buy a pre ban Eastern Bloc or Chinese or Finn.

As far as accuracy, most all are minute of bad buy. I've taken a bit of AK specific training and off-hand hits on 12"x12" at 200m are easily done by most men that have some trigger time on the platform.

The ACE folding stock mechanism is very stable and the folded gun fits nicely in a scuba fin bag. http://riflestocks.com/store/

Widening the rear sight slot a few thou makes a huge difference.

Texas Weapons Systems and Ultimak are the only add ons I'd recommend.

I went with the AK over the AR because I have an SKS and several tins of 7.62x39

Do NOT buy an AK in any other caliber than 7.62x39 if you want a reliable machine. In the training I've taken ALL the machines firing other calibers had some sort of malfunction.

ADDED TEXT: The classes I've taken run about 1000 rounds a weekend and have about 25 students. In every class, every non-7.62x39 experienced some sort of malfunction and more than half of the 7.62x39 guns malfunctioned. Very few guns actually made it through the class without hiccup. Most malfunctions were magazine related and could be cleared. The guns that ran perfectly were foreign made, using the same country manufactured mags as where the guns were manufactured. The non 7.62 guns would sometimes let a round under the recoil spring requiring removing the bolt carrier. A lot of mags of all kinds ended up in the cars. Most 7.62 mag issues were fixed with a file on the locking ledge or tab. I don't know of any of the non 7.62 mags being fixed. As with any fighting gun, clearing drills are very important.

Cheap Eastern Bloc steel mags are very reliable. Asian and US made mags are to be avoided except perhaps the US Palm mags.

deafrn · Post by **deafrn** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 12:45 pm

sore shoulder wrote:Otherwise I think for a bug out rifle the most practical is an M4 type. Most practical because its the platform with the largest supply chain for parts in the US.

That is one of the reasons I tell acquaintances to get an M4-stle AR over an AK if they are going to only get one "bad times"* semi auto. My own "battle rifle controversy" ended on sort of a wimp-out note with parts/magazines/ammunition availability being big factors, along with an accuracy advantage (based on my own experience) that would make each available round - which I am presumably humping around myself - more likely to hit where it matters.

I have respect for the AK, good thoughts about the SKS, a residual fondness for the Mini-14 and a grumbling, curmudgeonly tolerance for the AR platform, but - given a good example of any of them - I'd grab the AR on the way out the door.

D

*"Best bad times gun? What kind of S are we talking about? How big is the F? You going to be right in front of it, off to the side, or what?"

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 2:33 pm

rjohns94 wrote:Thanks for the feed back. I have a LMT in M4 config and more mags and ammo I want to try to carry.

Yea, that is exactly why I suggested the Kel-Tec, same price range, lighter, uses same mags as your LMT, and folds up nice and compact.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 1:13 am

A folding stock Mini-14 makes a pretty darn good truck gun as well.

Oly

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:24 am

Only till you have to hit something with it......

Mini barrels heat up fast, if it ever comes down to shooting in a hurry, i.e not at varmints and paper, they tend to throw patterns, not groups.

Not sure about the newest models with the better barrels, but every Mini i've ever shot, from the original all-wood-handguard up through about five years back has had that issue unless it's had an aftermarket barrel or work done to it.

I'd take a Mini, but not before an AK or an AR.

On the AK subject, the only reliable mags are former Warsaw Pact/Commie mags. Russian, Bulgarian, German, Polish, Hungarian, all fine. Chinese, still fine. Korean, avoid, as with US mags EXCEPT US Palm (which are made very well).

shawn_c992001 · Post by **shawn_c992001** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:35 am

I have to second the Saiga. I have converted mine back to standard AK platform with a Tapco G2 single hook trigger and the rest of the 922r compliant parts. I also shortened the barrel to 16.25", added a bullet trunion to use standard AK mags (must also file down the mag retainer tab). Added a AK side mount with a Red dot, thinned the front sight some added some paint to it and a line to the "U" of the rear and called it good.

I have heard that most of the accuracy problem with the AK is the short sight radius and the ammo. The barrel is also thin so it heats up easily. There are some that use the heavier RPK barrels though. You can also have an HK style rear sight installed on the dust cover to lengthen the sight radius. With good ammo mine has printed 1.5" groups with optics and the irons will hit a FBI silhouette out to 300. I run 4 Tapco mags with good results.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:52 am

shawn_c992001 wrote:
I have heard that most of the accuracy problem with the AK is the short sight radius and the ammo.

Nope, not even close. Most of the accuracy issues are the barrel to receiver (stamped sheet metal receivers especially) barrel whip, gas tube attachment (same problem Mini14 has) and very loose tolerances.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_E_GJayano

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 12:43 pm

sore shoulder,
Thank you!
Simply amazing, that explains a lot.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 7:43 pm

vs. an AR....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEBMlfhlxYg

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:25 pm

MrMurphy wrote:Only till you have to hit something with it......

Mini barrels heat up fast, if it ever comes down to shooting in a hurry, i.e not at varmints and paper, they tend to throw patterns, not groups.....

Yeah, I mean, the A-Team could hit every car/building/sign/piece of glass/exploding rock around but nary a bullet would hit a bad-guy...

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:38 pm

Seems far less violent and less travel to me.
Other perceptions please?

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 9:45 pm

Bear in mind that AK is not a 5.45x39 version. If you look for video of a vintage Mini-14 you'll see that it's somewhere between the AK and the AR regarding barrel whip. None of this is a surprise. The barrel whip issue is why AKs with milled receivers and heavy barrels sell at a premium, why bull barrel ARs are common, and why Ruger is putting heavier barrels on the Mini these days.

The AR platform just starts out with a better design to begin with (accuracy wise) so it's clearly the champ. Doesn't mean these other rifles don't have a place in the fun room.

Oly

JB · Post by JB » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:06 pm

2ndovc wrote:Valmet M76!

The Finns don't screw around !

Very true. I owned one for a while. The M76 is right at the top of AK perfection.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:15 pm

JB wrote:
2ndovc wrote:Valmet M76!

The Finns don't screw around !

Very true. I owned one for a while. The M76 is right at the top of AK perfection.

Add the Galil to that list.

My choice of TEOTWAWKI EBRs goes HK, Galil/valmet, SVD, PKM, FAL, M14, AR.

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 10:58 pm

olyinaz,

Like your assortment of mini's.

What make is the folding stock on the one's standing upright on the right side of the picture? Also, was the one on the far right rebarreled with a heavier barrel? Are any of them the newer ones made after 2005?

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:46 pm

Tycer wrote:vs. an AR....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PEBMlfhlxYg

Yep, pretty minimal for a gov profile barrel.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:52 pm

UncleBuck wrote:olyinaz,

Like your assortment of mini's.
What make is the folding stock on the one's standing upright on the right side of the picture? Also, was the one on the far right rebarreled with a heavier barrel? Are any of them the newer ones made after 2005?

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't intend to present those as mine, I just grabbed picture out of Gargle to illustrate that the Mini with the folding stock is a very compact rifle indeed. My Mini is an older Ranch Rifle and it shoots 1.5" three shot groups every time with Hornady ammo. Five shot groups? Fuggedaboudit.

Those two standing Mini's have the Ruger folding stock on 'em (one blued, one stainless). I really like that stock, but sadly they're a bit collectible now.

The folder in the top shot also has the Ruger folding stock. All of the rifles in the lower picture are older with the thin barrels, but they've been cut such that they're either Short Barrel Rifles (Class III) or their flash suppressors are permanently installed and bring them up to 16" barrel length (except perhaps the one on the left with the AR collapsible stock and the under-barrel brace - that one looks to be 16").

The only newer rifle in those two pictures is the folder in the top shot. What it looks like he's done is swapped the stock on his older GB model (police model with the bayonet lug) and a new Mini-14 Tactical model. The new Mini looks really great in the old blued folding stock in my opinion! You can see how the barrel is a bit thicker, especially where it passes out of the gas block. Also, it's only 16" vs. 18" in a standard Mini.

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it!

Oly

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 10:04 am

olyinaz,
Thanks for sharing

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:16 pm

MrMurphy wrote:Only till you have to hit something with it......

Mini barrels heat up fast, if it ever comes down to shooting in a hurry, i.e not at varmints and paper, they tend to throw patterns, not groups.

Not sure about the newest models with the better barrels, but every Mini i've ever shot, from the original all-wood-handguard up through about five years back has had that issue unless it's had an aftermarket barrel or work done to it.

I'd take a Mini, but not before an AK or an AR.

The funniest part about this pic, it's actually Ruger's real answer to accuracy problems.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:41 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
MrMurphy wrote:The funniest part about this pic, it's actually Ruger's real answer to accuracy problems.

And have you ever picked one up? Horrible! Never mind the engineering farce that the heavy barrel is after passing through the small hole in the gas block - the stock is absolutely horrible.

They managed to take a Mini and ruin every aspect of what it was SUPPOSED to be - a light, M1 Carbine like weapon with a slightly more effective round than the old .30 Carbine.

If only Ruger would make a version of the Mini chambered for .357 Mag I'd be in heaven. The Deerfield Carbine came oh so close!!

Oly