Leading issue with Meister bullets

[Old Ranger]

Happy New Year all!

Folks, I have a bit of a problem with leading in two of my weapons involving Meister bullets. Now I'm an old reloader and bullet caster of well over four decades, but recently my lead supply has dwindled to almost nothing. So I obtained some rounds from Meister Bullets for my .45-70 and .44Mag. Here's the set up:

Weapons: 2009 production Marlin 1895G, Bore mikes to .4565". 1981 production Browning B92, Bore mikes to .429".
Condition: Marlin; light pitting in first 6" of bore. When shooting, bore is dry and void of all oil. Browning; bore perfect and viod of all oil prior to shooting.

Loads: 45-70: Meister 300 gr RNFP Single lube groove with blue lube sized to .458". Powder, Unique, 14.7 gr. Crimped with Lee FC. .44Mag: 240 gr Meister RNFP Single lube groove with blue lube sized to .430". Powder, 9 gr of Herco. Crimped with RCBS seating/crimping die.
My own castings prior to the use of Meister's were of the same sized diameter.

When I shoot either weapon with these loads, that I consider to be fairly mild, I get leading in the rear of the bore quickly. In under 10 rounds with the Browning and nearly the same in the Marlin. The Marlin does have some light pitting in the first 6" or so of the bore due to an incident involving the use of some Tripple 7 powder ( a bad mistake on my part ) but it had not leaded when I was casting any of my own prior to the use of the Meisters. The Browning, though 30 years old is almost dead mint and the bore is perfect, but in under 10 rounds it has lead in the first 3" to 4" of the bore.

I do not have any device to test the hardness of these bullets, but the mfg. claims that they are hard cast and well above the level of the Lyman #2 alloy. Maybe I'm just thinking outloud here and looking for some reassurance from our members, but does anyone have any time involved with the Meister products? And, if so, did any have similar problems?

I am going to cut back on my loads by maybe 10% to 15% and see if the leading quits, but then the rounds will be so slow that I might be able to watch then travel down range! Any thoughts on this would be of great value to me as I'm a might stumped. I never bought cast bullets before as I always cast my own and life was good. I'm just outta lead and and having a hard time finding any here where I live. No tire shop in town will give up any WW at ANY price offered, and no plumbing supply stocks lead anymore...

My thanks in advance,

Wade

[Rusty]

Did you actually measure the bullet diameter or are you going by what the mfg says they are?

[Old No7]

"When I shoot either weapon with these loads, that I consider to be fairly mild, I get leading in the rear of the bore quickly....

I am going to cut back on my loads by maybe 10% to 15% and see if the leading quits..."

I didn't consult a loading manual to check on your load, but if it is "mild" as you say, then cutting back may be the wrong thing to do!

In my GP100 .357, when using lead SWC bullets, I got away from all leading with hard cast bullets by increasing the powder charge -- which did a better job of bumping up the base of the bullet to seal the bore. Not all "leading" is due to the same cause, some is due to what they call "gas cutting" -- especially in mild loads when the bullet doesn't obturate enough to get a good seal. The hot high-pressure gas goes around the bullet and strips lead off the sides and deposits it in the bore.

I also had the same problem with hard cast bullets in my Marlin Cowboy 38-55 using light loads of Trail Boss. They were very mild to shoot -- but had lousy accuracy, and were a bear to clean up after due to the leading at the start of the bore. So I went back to my stout loads with SR4759.

Some other responses and/or research on reloading forums might help you figure this out, but that is where I'd suggest you start. The leading in the start of the bore is a clue that your loads may indeed be "too mild".

Good luck, and tight groups.

Old No7

[Stan in SC]

I have been using Meister hard cast bullets in both my 45/70 NEF Handi rifle and my.44 magnums(both rifles and pistols) for about three years now and have had none of the problems you are experiencing.

Stan in SC

[Old Ranger]

Well the load for the .44 is quite mild. It just may be too mild and is allowing the gas cutting to occur. The load for the 45-70 with the Unique is almot 10% below max for that powder, but may not be pushing the slug hard enough either. I'll switch to some healthy loads of some 2400 and see if things improve. Got the day off and so I'll have time to play with it a bit...

Thanks guys,

Wade

[O.S.O.K.]

IIRC, Meister boolits are on the hard side. I'm also going to suggest that you're getting gas cutting - especially since you say it starts immediately in the bore - a sure sign that the gas is blowing by and melting the sides of the base.

Increase your charges some to get the pressure up enough to force the boolit bases to obturate and seal the bore on firing.

Also, get some Lee Liquid alox and apply a coat of that to the boolits. That always helps.

[Marvin S]

I gonna go with what the others said. The bullets you used in the past where probably softer, do you happen to have one around to check? Also most of that commercial lube is way to hard and is nothing more than a plastic ring in the bullet. Can you take a hair dryer and melt it out of some then pan lube a few with a soft lube? I shoot almost dead soft bullets to about 1300 FPS.

[Charles]

I have been casting for many years and have had nothing but bad luck from the bulk commercial casters such as Miester. I went to their site and looked at the bullets in question. Here are my thoughts on the issue.

Your leading comes from gas cutting becasue of;

1. An alloy far to hard for you pressure/velocity
2. The bullets have bevel bases
3. The blue wax lube is worthless

If you reduce your velocity, most likely the leading will get worse and not better.

I have had very good luck with bullets from Matts Castings (mattsbullets.com). They are hand cast from ww metal, flat bases and have an excellent lube. You can buy them raw (unsized and lubed) for a discount and do that yourself if you have the equipment.

Best of luck...

[Stonegate]

Oh boy, a topic near and dear to my heart I must have a couple thousand commercial "hard-cast" (BHN 20+) bullets. You gotta make em go real fast not to lead. Are yours bevel based? If so, that doesn't help either. Then one day I stumbled on Dave Jennings, Montana Bullet Works. He offers them in a couple levels of hardness and they are flat-bottomed. I have his 210 gr. LSW 44 cal that I shoot in my Ruger 44 Special Flattop. I load them to standard factory velocity. Shoot em all day and no lead. Also have some of his 30 cal, 210 gr RN bullets with a gas check that I shoot in my 1885 High Wall. But pretty much what has already been said... Lead in the early part of the barrel = gas cutting; lead in the later part = not enough lube.

[Old Ranger]

Well, I now have a lead mining operation going on in the bore of my Browning 92. I upped the load with the 240's to 12.5 gr of Unique and had what can be compared to a shotgun pattern at 25 yds with 50% keyholeing. The bore is now lead plated from breach to muzzle.

I have the weapon soaking with Kroil to raise the lead. Meanwhile, after 50 years of shooting and over 45+ years of loading/casting, I'm about ready to throw in the towel and take up knitting! I am about to go nuts with this....This has never happened to me before and I am one frustrated oldman.....

Wade

[Stonegate]

Whoa... My Lymans reloading manual shows the top load for a 240 gr. lead (#2 alloy) bullet to be 11.7 grains of Unique. That gives a MV of 1482 fps. You're a tad over... holy we-we!

Your hard cast bullets must be way under size. Best to start from the beginning; slug the bore and measure groove diameter.

[Charles]

Old Ranger... There were some changes in the law about 15 or 20 years ago that allowed for interstate sales and transportation of ammo and components. One of the results was the explosion of commercial machine cast bullets and all of the problems that go with them. They are made for ease of casting (bevel base) with automatice machines, and lubed with worthless lube so they can be shipped all jumbled up and not have the lube come out. They are sold as "hard cast" because folks think that is better which quite often it is not. The net results is what you now have in your rifle.

I started casting in 1960 and broke the code on these crappy commercial cast bullets the first order I sent. Welcome to the party! You need to melt those down and save the alloy for some load that needs that stuff. While low cost WW is fastly becoming history, you can sometimes find it over on the Cast Boolits board. Google is your friend. You can still buy good alloys of known composition from several sources. There are also good hand cast bullets for sale out there in the world.

Gone are the day of "free for the asking" metals. About 15 years ago a fellow offered me two 55 gallon drums filled to the top, of used wheelweights, if I would just haul them off. I just scooped out three 5 gallon buckets and left the rest. Boy do I wish I had gone to the trouble of taking them all.

[Old Ranger]

Stonegate,

Guess my manual is outdated. (like me ) It listed tops as 13gr. Oh well.

The bore miked out at .429" and I had measured the bullets with a eletronic caliper that gave me .430". Now I just went out to my shop and got my old, but VERY good micrometer from my gunsmithing days. This baby is accurate! I pulled several slugs from the batch sent and they measured .429"! Now we know what the he** is going on here! stuff!! And now I'm stuck with 425 of these things that are undersized!!

I learned two things today. 1. NEVER trust eletronic gizmos! and 2. Cast and size your OWN if you want it right!

I'm gonna melt these things down and cast my own from them. An expensive lesson for this oldman, but I will never trust the "Bullet maker" ever again. I'm an oldman that lives alone and I suppose that is for a good reason. I can be canterous at times! This is one of those times

Stonegate and all, thank you for your help. Now I'll get back to my weapon that has been soaking in Kriol and see if I can get the rest of that lead out of my weapon.

I'll put off the knitting when I can't shoot anymore

Wade

[Marvin S]

Think you on the right track. Get a copper chore boy pot scrubbing pad and cut about a 3/8 wide ribbon about three inches long and wrap that around a bronze bore brush. Run it through the bore to remove the lead.

[Ray Newman]

Before using/buying a copper pot scrubber, first test it with a magnet.

Some of these "quality import" pot scrubbers are copper plated steel wool. On a whim, I checked the copper pot scrubbers at the local market, all attracted a magnet.

[Old Ranger]

Well I don't use kitchen utencils for my weapons I'm a hard bitten old school kinda guy. Used to use turpentine, then later Kroil, to soak the bore to raise the lead out of it. Kroil does that nicely and lifts fouling at the same time. I got it all clean and happy now.

The offending bullets are going to be melted down tomorrow and will add some soft lead to make the mix a bit more useful. As I had said, I have never used bullets that were cast by anyone other than me before, and this was an eye opener for me. Going back to casting my own again fulltime and will import lead if I have to! But no more from the store, as they say.....

Gotta get a new mould for the .44mag as the old Kieth 245 will not function in the B92, unless I use Spl cases (100 on order as we speak) But I will find me a suitable mould (NOT LEE!!!) for use in Mag cases..It will work out jus fine afterall...

Thanks guys for your help. Again, as always, the folks here at Leverguns came through like the champs you all are!

Wade