Grizzlies and the 30-30

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:52 pm

Kirk,
I sure miss your calendars.

(Forgive me for hijacking the post - this once!)

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 10:20 am

I like scopes in general, a low power, like 2x in a 2-7x works pretty well up close (you can see the end of the barrel, and I can see stuff inside my house easily on 2x), but still not as simple as good irons. You take your pick and live with it that day. In summer I often carry iron sighted guns, in fall and winter, a scoped gun more. The glass gives you way more ability to see in poor light. If your gun/scope mount fits you correctly, the crosshair should be right where you're looking when you throw the gun up. One reason I detest the high mounted see thru rings.

My current dogs seem to be just chicken enough not to take after a bear, and just brave enough to let me know when one is around. I like that they know what's around long before I do most of the time. I've been out many times in thick stuff and noticed the dog(s) go very watchful and alert, and not wanting to go see what it was, just stay close and be alert. Malamutes aren't generally very barky or vocal, so unless they actually growl, I've mostly just noticed they get very alert. One of my current dogs is part Collie, so barks more than Mal's usually do. One evening a bear came in close to camp while I was setting up. Both dogs went ballistic, but wouldnt go out of camp. I looked with various lights etc, but never saw it, it stayed out of camp. Next morning I saw the large fresh pile of bear poop just out of camp (different direction than the dogs were looking). That's all I ask of my dogs, just to let me know when something is around. Well, besides jumping and pointing grouse.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Jul 22, 2011 11:01 am

BigSky56 wrote:...worrying about the big bear had my attention and didnt leave me time to roll a smoke.

I like that 'roll a smoke' way of putting it.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:17 am

BigSky56 wrote:as said dogs can put you in a bind 2 years ago the wife and I had gone for a horse ride and took my heeler cow dog ran into a grizz 50 yds down hill of the trail while I was watching the bear the dog saw/heard something and went after it up the trail when I noticed he was gone I called him back then heard a cub squall and climb a tree my dog came high balling down the trail with a BB sow in tow trying to swat him she stopped 30 yds away stomping and carrying on took my attention off the grizz who in all the excitement and noise decided to wander back down the hill after I got it all sorted out figured the grizz was putting the sneak on the sow/cub to have lunch as she was upwind of him.
If I hadnt called the dog back he would of fought the sow and normally I make sure he doesnt leave me I was a bit busy watching the grizz and hadnt put the dog in a hold position, worrying about the big bear had my attention and didnt leave me time to roll a smoke. 2 different bears at the same time should make some kind of list.
Just make sure your dogs obey you and can face up to trouble and not run and dont call them back if trouble starts, my cow dogs will and have held bears and moose till I can sort the problem out. Swamp donkeys are bad berry on one dog, 2 gives them grief a pack of cow dogs can have lunch. danny

Dan, ya, I don't let him run loose on hikes.(he scouts the front of our party and is all business)
I keep mine on a 20ft retractable flexi leash.(the big 180lb one

)

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:21 am

Probably good to have a lead on your dog in most cases, but in bear country, I don't want to be encumbered by the dog lead, I want both hands free. If the dog gets in trouble, they're on their own beyond what I can do with a rifle. If the dog had a lead on it and I let them go, it would encumber them also, and could cause problems.

centershot · Post by **centershot** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:32 pm

It's interesting to me to see what a low opinion some have of the 12 ga. slug! (LOL!

) I have hunted deer and black bear in a "shotgun-only" area for 40 seasons now, and have NEVER recovered a 12 ga. slug, ALL shots were complete pass-throughs. Poo-poo it if you want, but knowing what it is capable of, I would feel very well armed with a 12 gauge 870 loaded with B renneke's as an "anti-grizz" weapon!

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:15 pm

Slugs are good, but you would still need a brain shot on a Grizz if it was charging you. The reason I say this is that the Grizz might not notice any slugs in the chest/vital area. Several years ago I was hunting Whitetail Deer in medium-thick bush. I had a 12 Gauge loaded with the traditional rifled slugs. I heard something coming my way at a run. My first shot was at 10 yards, second was broadside at 8 yards and the third was at 10 yards. The deer showed absolutely no sign of having been hit and continued to run as if I had completely missed all three shots, then it keeled over about 30 yards away, roughly 40 yards from where the first shot hit it. In gutting it, I saw that the first shot had gone through the vitals angling back through the diaphram and into the stomach. The second shot had gone through the top half of the heart, and the third slug had gone through the bottom half of the heart. As I said before, the deer showed no signs of being hit with any of the three 12 Ga slugs. That was an eye-opener for me regarding 12 slugs and Grizzlies ...... two or three slugs into the vitals of a charging Grizzly is not likely going to stop it instantly. So even with 12 Ga slugs, a fellow should still aim for the brain when being charged by a Grizzly.

Disclaimer: I've never been charged by a Grizzly and hope I never am, so all of the above is armchair opinion.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:38 pm

alaska fish and game has tested conventional slugs on dead grizzlies: for 100% reliable penetration for a head shot range had to be under 12 feet! grizzlies in full attack mode are measured at hitting 50 feet per second [similar to most large predators].....thats calling it pretty close, shooting in the last 0.2 seconds.....no thanks. a few years back ,a motorist here at Eagle River, hit and disabled a 2-3 year old grizzly. another motorist shot it to finish it, using a 20 ga. with slugs : he shot it in the head from approx 20 feet without killing it. moved up much closer and shot it in the neck vertebra which did the trick. this was in the paper, and commented on by fish and game officer. it is also in larry kaniut's book on 'bear tales'
i believe the story would be quite different with brenneke slugs or with the old BRI hardened sabot slugs. i occasionally am just armed with a shot gun, and i have the BRIs in 12 ga [ havent been made in years ] i have brenneke slugs in 20 ga. and hopefully i want need them.
i have used slugs and buckshot and am just not as confident with them as i am with a heavy loaded 45/70 or similar.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 5:10 pm

two words: head shot

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:21 pm

Whole bunch of interesting stuff here.

I would not consider a scoped rifle for close work. I outfitted a 444 with a 2.5X Leupold and it was a dandy combo, hated it. My lefty 700 Rem in 7MM Mag was outfitted with a peep for mountain hunting. It was deadly to 250 yards but I never got comfortable with a bolt. The 444 with a Williams FP is deadly to 200 so who cares. I grew up convinced that a peep was king and barrel sights are next to useless.

Today there are many fine rifleman who grew up with scopes and are real handy with them in all situations. Confidence in one's gun and skills is critical in tight spots. So really both opinions are valid.

Our old Rex could tree a black alone with some luck and kept the marauders out of the homestead. Give me a good dog any time. I have met a few city dogs that would make good bait though.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 7:44 pm

Lot's of good talk here but I'll still stand by my statement that scopes are better than irons even for close-in, fast work. My slug gun wears a 1.5-4x and my coon callin gun was wearing a red dot until now. Not sure what to put on it this year but it will probably be my 2-7x Redfield.

But on the dogs........ I have no idea what my dogs will do wit ha bear. My fiest is a strange little dog and he may not back up one bit or he may run for mother. But I suspect my Jagdterrier would be another matter all together. That Dog has zero back up. Been doing work around the place and had a contractor buddy out here with his skidloader. Now I'm gonna swear to god my dog must be able to read because she read the word "bobcat" on the side of that thing and decided to attack the thing every time it moved. Finally had to put her in the house.

While these aren't my dogs here's an example of what jagd's can do:

LK

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:24 pm

Great picture.

Dogs are wondourous animals that have been our companions for a very long time. A hunting pack is something to see, almost scary.

Still have to disagree about the scope for me. I hate the shake and the way the gun handles. Nothing in my mind handles like an iron sighted lever which is why I'm a loyal peep sighted lever man. A scope ruins the handling for me not the shooting as such. I prefer looking down the barrel with both eyes open and not through the scope. It is more natural for my ability to put the gun on target. For CQ work I know from practice that I can put a bullet on target up close without using the sights well enough to protect myself rather well.

Please note that is my opinion and I understand the effectiveness of a scope. I just would never rate a scoped rifle "better" up close or long for everybody. I tried an excellent scope and removed it to my 22.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 8:58 pm

What happened to the OP? 30-30 for bear as I recall.... ????

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:56 am

Malamute wrote:In summer I often carry iron sighted guns, in fall and winter, a scoped gun more. The glass gives you way more ability to see in poor light.

I couldn't agree more! That is exactly what I do. Summer sees me putting on miles with a peep sighted levergun, deer and elk season more often than not sees me packing a scoped rifle since it is so dark here in Western Washington under the dark timber with the rain pounding down.

The only time I was ever attacked by a bear it was a blackbear of all things. A BIG blackbear, but a blackbear all the same so it was kill or be killed especially since it turned out to be a big boar with worn teeth. My dog (GWP) was heeled and the bear had followed us inside heavy timber for at least a 1/4 mile or more and I was aware something was there. When it came bursting out of the brush was when the trail made a 90 degree turn and basically was cutting him off from trailing me inside of brush. I've always felt I was lucky that I was packing a heavily loaded model 92 in .44 wearing peep sights using a cast bullet. His head was down and ears back when he exploded from the brush not more than 25 yards away and I had time for ONE SINGLE SHOT. I can't say I actually aimed for his head, there wasn't time. But the bullet went in on one side of his spine at the base of the neck and exited very close to the penis. That rolled him at what I figure was 10 yards (this was years ago) and he was instantly on his feet heading back the way he came, into the thick brush. I had time for a second shot that took him through the guts. A friend and I tracked him for about a 1/2 mile (yes, I went back for help!) where we found him. The whole episode from the time he exploded out of the brush to the 2nd shot when he was back into the brush seemed like a lifetime but bet it didn't take much more than 3, maybe 4 seconds. So brief yet so violent. I just can't imagine had it been a momma grizz that didn't have any stop in her.

That's all I ask of my dogs, just to let me know when something is around. Well, besides jumping and pointing grouse.

Yep! That was always the good thing about my old GWP, he would definately let me know when we were close to a bear or a cat, there was NEVER any doubt, Plus, he was a ruffed grouse machine!

2x22

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:25 pm

hfcable wrote:alaska fish and game has tested conventional slugs on dead grizzlies: for 100% reliable penetration for a head shot range had to be under 12 feet! grizzlies in full attack mode are measured at hitting 50 feet per second [similar to most large predators].....thats calling it pretty close, shooting in the last 0.2 seconds.....no thanks. a few years back ,a motorist here at Eagle River, hit and disabled a 2-3 year old grizzly. another motorist shot it to finish it, using a 20 ga. with slugs : he shot it in the head from approx 20 feet without killing it. moved up much closer and shot it in the neck vertebra which did the trick. this was in the paper, and commented on by fish and game officer. it is also in larry kaniut's book on 'bear tales'
i believe the story would be quite different with brenneke slugs or with the old BRI hardened sabot slugs. i occasionally am just armed with a shot gun, and i have the BRIs in 12 ga [ havent been made in years ] i have brenneke slugs in 20 ga. and hopefully i want need them.
i have used slugs and buckshot and am just not as confident with them as i am with a heavy loaded 45/70 or similar.

hfcable,

I got poor penetration with conventional 20 ga slugs and gallon milk jugs filled with water. Haven't tried Brenneke and will. Distance about 25 feet. (This gun shoots slugs 6" low at that short distance! Might want to check your gun with slugs!)

Winchester 3/4 oz--Stuck in back side of #3 with great expansion.

Remington 5/8 oz--Penetrated 2 with great expansion. (My choice for self-defense, Remington 1100, 21" bbl.)

Some Winchester 20 ga #3 buckshot penetrated 3. After the slugs this surprised me. 12 ga 00 should do better. But with more width to push through--don't know. Both 20 and 12 ga about the same speed.

I definitely would not trust any of the above with bears. Even black bears.

For self-defense I think they'd be fine and maybe even hard to beat.

Don

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:40 pm

Just my 2 cents; If a bear is within biting distance, an 18" barrelled 870 with extended mag and Brenneke slugs would make me happy. I shoot it better and faster than a .458. Perhaps, it's cause i've used an 870 for 39 years.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 4:47 pm

for me " Just my 2 cents; If a bear is within biting distance..." a 20 mm recoiless rifle or similar would make me happier.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:34 pm

hfcable wrote:for me " Just my 2 cents; If a bear is within biting distance..." a 20 mm recoiless rifle or similar would make me happier.

+1

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:22 pm

When evidence shows up that shows me I need to re think something and admit maybe I am a tad off(I fess up)

In this last issue of American Rifleman August 2011 (just got it today in mail)on page 29 under Product Reviews--- "Editor's Choice" Aaron Carter(Managing Editor)
talks in detail on his experience with the new hornady 30-30 Monoflex 140gr round.

He talks about on a recent hunt in Alberta,Canada where 8 bears where taken with that round using the Mossberg 464.
Of those eight bears taken only 2 bullets were recovered.
It really sounds like that round/cartridge did a heck of a job,so much so the Guide(Kory Stanley)said that it has changed his perception what a 30-30 can do!
Sounds like a real winner

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 8:43 pm

If u know how to hunt and u know how to shoot, a 30-30, has for over 100 years, and today, will take all north american game including the great bears. Knowing how to hunt and shoot is more important than caliber, knockdown power, etc.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 6:22 pm

Just outta curiousity I wonder how a .30-30 stacks up power and pentration wise against the front stuffers from the first half of the 19th century.

LK

TravisM · Post by **TravisM** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 8:04 pm

That's a great question there.

muddydog · Post by **muddydog** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:12 pm

L_Kilkenny wrote:Just outta curiousity I wonder how a .30-30 stacks up power and pentration wise against the front stuffers from the first half of the 19th century.

LK

I've done some testing, a .50 cal round ball with 90gr of BP zips thru a 125lb (field dressed) whitetail like butter. I have shot them from front chest and had an exit out a ham transversing the entire body. but- the hole was small with virtually minimal shock and damage. very little blood trail for 50 yards or so after showing no impact on the shot.

a 150gr federal load shot from the same distance at almost an identical deer the bullet path was the same, but the deer immediately buckled and stumbled 10 feet and collapsed.

the difference is energy and its transfer i assume.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 9:38 pm

madman4570 wrote:...In this last issue of American Rifleman August 2011 (just got it today in mail)on page 29 under Product Reviews--- "Editor's Choice" Aaron Carter(Managing Editor)
talks in detail on his experience with the new hornady 30-30 Monoflex 140gr round...Mossberg 464....

Yup - same hunt as this recent thread, I believe:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=36286

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Thu Jul 28, 2011 11:26 pm

hfcable wrote:although a bit out of date , here was some extensive testing done by the feds in juneau to better advise rangers and wildlife agents what to use for bear defense. would like to see this type of work repeated with modern slugs, modern jacketed bullets, heavier loads for some calibers, barnes solids, hard cast etc.:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/25558934/Safe ... ar-country

hfcable,

Great link! One of the best articles on guns and hunting I've ever read.

If some of you missed this article--give it a look.

I agree with about everything they said--and they said a lot. I don't see how they ranked the Winchester .358 as highly as they did. Also they did not use the "bear bullet" for this cartridge and that's a 250 gr bullet. They used a 200 gr.

Their results with the Remington 45-70, 405 gr factory load agreed with what I found shooting it through water jugs. Through 20" bbl it retained 98% of it's weight and expansion ratio about the least. The penetration of their medium with this load was 17.8" which is 2nd only to the .458 Winchester which is ranked #1--IF you can handle the recoil with accuracy. The recoil was a mere 13.6, only the 7mm mauser had less.

If a bear is charging you will be trying for a brain shot. If the bullet penetrates well, if the gun does not recoil much for faster follow-up shots and if the gun is a lever-action for faster shooting--does that spell this Remington load and a Marlin, Winchester or Browning lever gun?
What do you think? Heaven forbid it might even "spell" a 30-30 shooting a 170 gr Partition bullet.

Don

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 1:11 am

For close-in work, i agree on irons over a magnified scope.

But a illuminated red dot beats irons in most situations at closer ranges. Both from personal experience and real world testing (the last 10 years of war being a good indicator). And i've shot irons for most of my life, but at close, dark and dirty ranges, a good red dot (Aimpoint) wins.

A 1-4, 2-7X etc can be made to work at low mag, but irons win against them under 50 yards or so in a hurry.

A trained shooter is fast regardless of the action. I grew up on military bolt actions. While i'm quick with a lever, i'm quicker with a Mauser or Lee-Enfield simply from familiarity.

As to a .30-30, a Marlin 336 with an XS ghost ring/Picatinny rail combo and an Aimpoint H-1 would be high on my list of idiotproof midrange 'do it all' guns.

Jacko · Post by **Jacko** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:29 am

No Grizzly's in Australia folks so I have little idea - BUT -I read of folks packing a .44 mag Pistol in Grizzly Country and how Confident they feel packing it. Assuming proper projectile selection I would be pretty confident a 30.30 Rifle packs more punch than a .44 Mag Pistol.

I too am often amused Reading how Calibres our Grandfather's used for Food and Protection in there day are not up too it today. I know one thing for sure, I can't shoot anything like as well as my Dad can. I've twice seen him Kill a running Rabbit shooting from the Hip at 30 yards with his old Model 62 .22. Like has been said many times before. Practice and Placement.

As an experienced Bowhunter I promise you than an adequitly weighted Razor Sharp Hunting Arrow will Kill any Beast that walks this Earth if the Broadhead severs Vitals quick as a Bullet hitting those same Vitals. Mind you, if that Beast is a charging Grizzly, I'll just tuck my head between my Legs and Kiss -------- you know the rest

regards Jacko

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:36 pm

Jacko wrote:No Grizzly's in Australia folks so I have little idea - BUT -I read of folks packing a .44 mag Pistol in Grizzly Country and how Confident they feel packing it. Assuming proper projectile selection I would be pretty confident a 30.30 Rifle packs more punch than a .44 Mag Pistol.

I too am often amused Reading how Calibres our Grandfather's used for Food and Protection in there day are not up too it today. I know one thing for sure, I can't shoot anything like as well as my Dad can. I've twice seen him Kill a running Rabbit shooting from the Hip at 30 yards with his old Model 62 .22. Like has been said many times before. Practice and Placement.

As an experienced Bowhunter I promise you than an adequitly weighted Razor Sharp Hunting Arrow will Kill any Beast that walks this Earth if the Broadhead severs Vitals quick as a Bullet hitting those same Vitals. Mind you, if that Beast is a charging Grizzly, I'll just tuck my head between my Legs and Kiss -------- you know the rest

regards Jacko

Well said!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:38 pm

Myself I think for specifically speaking of a self defense carry gun for protection hiking etc.(not hunting them)one would be hard pressed to beat a quality semi-auto 12ga like a Rem 1100(11-87)
I have to imagine that in one shot having (3) 315gr special alloy/hardened .60 cal balls(not soft lead) wacking a bears face has got to do the deal??
How bout staggering those in between of the 870 grain special alloy/hardened Dixie IXL-DGS's.

Given the fact I have never had one single jam with my Rem 1100 in over 10,000 rds (I would bet my life on it)
Just don't know with a charging grizz or any charging bear if many people having to work an action might screw up??
I can fire 4 off with my 1100 in a blink!
Unless your a PH of dangerous game(I think the gun might operate better than the man in that part of the equationt?)
Speaking of myself included!

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 7:22 pm

madman4570 wrote:Myself I think for specifically speaking of a self defense carry gun for protection hiking etc.(not hunting them)one would be hard pressed to beat a quality semi-auto 12ga like a Rem 1100(11-87)
I have to imagine that in one shot having (3) 315gr special alloy/hardened .60 cal balls(not soft lead) wacking a bears face has got to do the deal??
How bout staggering those in between of the 870 grain special alloy/hardened Dixie IXL-DGS's.

Given the fact I have never had one single jam with my Rem 1100 in over 10,000 rds (I would bet my life on it)
Just don't know with a charging grizz or any charging bear if many people having to work an action might screw up??
I can fire 4 off with my 1100 in a blink!
Unless your a PH of dangerous game(I think the gun might operate better than the man in that part of the equationt?)
Speaking of myself included!

madman4570,

Actually, as you say for self-defense, I agree with you. I've thought the same about the Browning BAR semi-auto. To me the really important thing with a semi-auto would be to know how to keep it clean, knowledge of parts that wear, and just be sure it's in perfect working order. "The gun might operate better than the man." That's a very good statement when things get scary. Too, the easiest most sure way to shoot fast is with a semi-auto. Fractions of a second could make the difference between a dead bear and a dead you.

Too, if the semi-auto has seen considerable use but you were taking it into bear country a good looking over by a truly competent gunsmith would be a good idea.

My first choice for self-defense against humans--up close--is a semi-auto shotgun, slugs or buckshot. Contrary to what you sometimes hear, you can't depend on bird shot even when it hits in a very tight pattern.

No doubt about it the Remington 1100/1187 semi-auto shotguns have a great reputation for reliability. Most "pros" go with a pump. Not me.

Don

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 8:35 pm

getitdone1 wrote:
madman4570 wrote:Myself I think for specifically speaking of a self defense carry gun for protection hiking etc.(not hunting them)one would be hard pressed to beat a quality semi-auto 12ga like a Rem 1100(11-87)
I have to imagine that in one shot having (3) 315gr special alloy/hardened .60 cal balls(not soft lead) wacking a bears face has got to do the deal??
How bout staggering those in between of the 870 grain special alloy/hardened Dixie IXL-DGS's.

Given the fact I have never had one single jam with my Rem 1100 in over 10,000 rds (I would bet my life on it)
Just don't know with a charging grizz or any charging bear if many people having to work an action might screw up??
I can fire 4 off with my 1100 in a blink!
Unless your a PH of dangerous game(I think the gun might operate better than the man in that part of the equationt?)
Speaking of myself included!
madman4570,

Actually, as you say for self-defense, I agree with you. I've thought the same about the Browning BAR semi-auto. To me the really important thing with a semi-auto would be to know how to keep it clean, knowledge of parts that wear, and just be sure it's in perfect working order. "The gun might operate better than the man." That's a very good statement when things get scary. Too, the easiest most sure way to shoot fast is with a semi-auto. Fractions of a second could make the difference between a dead bear and a dead you.

Too, if the semi-auto has seen considerable use but you were taking it into bear country a good looking over by a truly competent gunsmith would be a good idea.

My first choice for self-defense against humans--up close--is a semi-auto shotgun, slugs or buckshot. Contrary to what you sometimes hear, you can't depend on bird shot even when it hits in a very tight pattern.

No doubt about it the Remington 1100/1187 semi-auto shotguns have a great reputation for reliability. Most "pros" go with a pump. Not me.

Don

Right on brother!

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:46 pm

hfcable,

I found a link to that great forest service bear gun/cartridge article you posted but this one doesn't bug you with a service that wants to charge you to download it for printing.

http://www.fs.fed.us/pnw/pubs/gtr152

(You have to wait maybe 15 seconds for this to come on screen, maybe even scroll down to see it.)

I previously said I agreed with about all of this article. Well, most of it but there's a few other problems I have with it other than the ones I mentioned. The top 4 guns are a wise choice for those who can handle the recoil. Recoil and hunters that don't shoot much doesn't sound like a very good thing when bear is coming fast. The authors do mention that some hunters cannot wisely use these powerful cartridges. They also mention the 30-06 220 gr might then be best--which I think is pretty good advice.

The authors needed to take the time to find some of the better bullets for bears for some of these cartridges. Can make a huge difference no matter what the bore size.

Don

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Sat Jul 30, 2011 11:10 am

My grandpa used to tell me that carrying a good stout walking stick is one of the handiest tools for escaping the wrath of a charging bear. All ya gotta do is trip the fella next to you as you're skedaddl'n away.

Two lessons he always said:

1. Try to always take someone with you when your in bear country

2. Any gun is better than a rock

He also thought that a 30-30 was a high power rifle, much more stout than is 44wcf and considerably more range then his 32-20.

Canuck Bob · Post by **Canuck Bob** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 12:53 pm

Early last century there is no denying that two rifles were the most common in the Canadian frontier. The Lee Enfield and the Win 94. Trappers and loggers liked the little Winchester because it was so handy and carried on horseback and in a truck well. In reality most folks who lived and worked in the bush didn't carry guns as much as you might think.

Their level of bushcraft is long gone mostly but they did not feel undergunned with a 30-30. Also the bears were not afraid of humans yet either.

One consideration is that grizzly enconters are very rare were most of us live and hunt. Now I want to carry something handier and lighter with a few hunting loads but a pocketful of cast plinkers. I want to shoot a lot and cheaply for woods loafing. The 30-30 fits that scenario just fine. My bear country gun is now a 32 Special 94. If an encounter is more likely or for family camping its a 444.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:34 pm

A real important message has been made evident from all that's been said here and that is a spine or brain shot is all that's going to stop a charging grizzly, for sure--in most instances. So, for the most part, you're covered with a medium powered center-fire rifle with the 30-30 at the low end.

The "for the most part" is troublesome. If you don't hit the spine or brain but do hit the shoulder--or elsewhere--you want as much power as you can handle well. Hitting the brain or spine may not be as easy as you'd think--under the conditions.

I think that sums it up.

Don

t.r. · Post by **t.r.** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 7:29 pm

I hunted with my .308 in northern Saskatchewan back in the 1980's for moose and caribou at two different Cree camps. 30-30 carbines were widely used by the Cree hunters at that time. They got the job done with their "deer rifles" because of hunting skills and excellent shot placement.

30-30 is a KEEPER!!

TR

pokey · Post by **pokey** » Tue Aug 02, 2011 11:46 pm

whoops

bearvsman.JPG

[ looks like a savage 99, could have been a 30-30 ]

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 6:51 am

Ok, not a Grizzly, but I got the following story from a friend of mine in AZ, whose friend told him the following:

Another personal experience story from a local friend of mine who was an actual AZ cowboy years ago He did this when he was only 11 years old!

I think I have already told you one shooting story that I am most proud of, I call it my “Davy Crockett” story—you know…”killed him a ‘bar(bear) when he was only three”…. Well on our ranch at Young, bears were a big calf killing problem. One day at the tender age of 11 yrs. (1961), I was out punchin’ cows with one of our hired hands, probably age 50, when the dogs jumped out a mama with two cubs that were eating on a dead yearling (worth $500) down in Gun Creek which really isn’t far from Payson , as the crow flies. We had been losing quite a few calves in this area, & a mama with two weaned cubs will kill 2 or 3 per week. Well, the dogs treed the cubs, and mama bear ran a short way into brush & stopped—my older partner’s horse started bucking & going crazy, but as a youngster, I always got to ride the older, gentler horses & mine remained calm—the man did not even have a gun anyway. I had an old G.I. M-1, .30 cal. jungle –carbine, peep sights, with a 15 rnd. clip in it in a scabbard tied to my saddle—I had strict orders from Dad to kill bears, so I pulled it out (had already killed several deer & coyotes with it over the past few years), and plugged a 100 lb. cub out of that tree (still sitting on my horse) , he squalled as he fell dead to the ground—then all hell broke loose. HERE COMES MAMA, sounding like a Sherman tank crashing thru the brush to her cub’s rescue. I could not even see her til she broke out into the creek bed about 50 yds. Away. My partner was yelling “pop-it-to-her” repeatedly, she was in a full lope heading right for me & my horse, I yelled back, “wait till she gets closer!”—and stuff, two more jumps she would have been up in the saddle with me!! Fortunately, my horse remained calm & out of sheer ”too dumb-to-be scared” kid luck, bullet-proof stupidity, so did I—and at about 30 ft. squeezed off a round and by God’s good grace, she dropped dead on the spot! Talk about pelosi butt luck for me with that little 110gr. bullet, it went straight thru her heart. Quickly put two more into her head, shot the other yearling that was still up a tree, and the wreck was over. Dad chewed me out good later for letting a 350 lb. charging bear get that close to me, the hired hand told him the story---BUT, a month or so later on my BD, Dad handed me a brand new Model 94 that has now killed more big game than most people see in a lifetime, & thanked me for saving him a bunch more beef $ that day in Gun Creek—it is now comfortably retired in my gunsafe.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 8:48 am

Griff,

Good story.

Don

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Tue Aug 16, 2011 12:55 pm

Seems about the right time to post this again .....

93marshooter · Post by **93marshooter** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:17 pm

This kind of discussion comes up on all sorts of gun related web sites. I have never seen a bear in our area (west Texas). A good 30-30 will kill any thing in our area. I saw on tv a few years ago a group of poachers in Africa with AK 47s in seconds kill a small herd of elephants. I sure impressed me as to the power of the 7.62x39 if you shoot enough of them. I am sure a 30-30 will kill a big bear with enough time, accuracy, and quantity. I'd prefer my 06 but the compact 30-30 with 7 rounds seems more appealing than heavy bolt action 06 with 5 rounds and a scope to impede reloading. In a levergun that Winchester 95 in 06 or a new Marlin in 338.

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 7:36 pm

93marshooter wrote:This kind of discussion comes up on all sorts of gun related web sites. I have never seen a bear in our area (west Texas). A good 30-30 will kill any thing in our area. I saw on tv a few years ago a group of poachers in Africa with AK 47s in seconds kill a small herd of elephants. I sure impressed me as to the power of the 7.62x39 if you shoot enough of them. I am sure a 30-30 will kill a big bear with enough time, accuracy, and quantity. I'd prefer my 06 but the compact 30-30 with 7 rounds seems more appealing than heavy bolt action 06 with 5 rounds and a scope to impede reloading.

30-30 will kill anything included the great bears. 3006's killed more elephants than all the super magnums and british bigbores combined. Hunters , poachers, farmers used what they had, and lived to see another day. Super magnums and british bigbores are for wealthy hunters who have a lot of money. It's nice to read about in magazines, but , the aboved mentioned, probabally didn't read the gun rags and didn't know any better

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:02 pm

As a follow-up; my cousin-in-law? - a brother to my daughter's father-in-law - is an expert hunter. He has worked as a guide in the past, and has used the same box of shells for several seasons; he is a good shot and knows when to shoot, so shot placement definitely is represented in his hunts.

This last season he shot a trophy black bear - it was huge, and a record for Madera County, if not the San Joaquin Valley. I can't remember what it weighed, but it is currently on display throughout the state and may be a record for this state over the last 50 years or so, as I recall. I am sorry that my information is vague; I had two major operations around the same time and I've lost some memory about current affairs.

Anyway - he could not use his beloved 7mm Mag because of the current Condor Zone laws. He had not yet purchased the required all copper bullets. But he had spotted the monster around some trash bins while camping, and came back as soon as he grabbed a friend's rifle that had the required (legal) ammunition. He dropped the bear in one shot with a .243 Winchester(!).

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:29 pm

Ben_Rumson wrote: Seems about the right time to post this again .....

Why Ben, he didn't have enough gun at all. 30 M1 Carbine. But...look at those dead bears! Think you made a case for FMJ bullet and not too much powder. Oh, and a lot of back-up rounds. A single shot 30 carbine might not work so well--over time.

Don

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:03 pm

If all I had were a 30-30, I would use it. Maybe I am a good enough shot, I don't know. There are some other rifles I would prefer, but I would use the 30-30 if I had it.

Meeteetse · Post by **Meeteetse** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:46 pm

Certainly there are calibers available today that are more powerful than the lowly 30wcf, but the fact remains that many a griz has fallen to the ole 30/30. I have taken two black bear with a 30/30 and watched as a lower 48 (smaller) griz was taken easily with a 30/06. Are they the best, perhaps not, but they worked. Take what you shoot the best.

t.r. · Post by **t.r.** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 7:24 am

I've read that many of the old timers felt that elk were harder to put down than grizzlies. Perhaps due to lung size or lung capacity?

TR

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:06 pm

This ere' more power thing, is it like motorcycles?

Cos I keep passing guy's on bikes way more powerfull than mine! Could it be they don't need it? Could it be an ego thing?

Seems to me alot of folk suffer from "more is better". I tend to find it a pain in the a,,,,,,,,, more cluttered, less simple and hence harder to use.

Best wishes

N.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:12 pm

Nath, if you come over here I recommend you don't try to deal with any angry grizzlies with a 30-30, cause I don't want you to get et.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 1:21 pm

Old Savage wrote:Nath, if you come over here I recommend you don't try to deal with any angry grizzlies with a 30-30, cause I don't want you to get et.

Thats a sweet way to say shut it

N