1874 Sharps 45-70 vs. 45-90

[Jarhead]

I already have two(2) 45-70s. A Wild West 45-70/457 Mag, and a 1885 C. Sharps 'highwall'. Well, I am getting ready to order a "Business Rifle" from Shiloh Sharps Co. and I'm not sure if I'll go 45-70 or 45-90. Anybody hunt with a 45-90 that also owns a 45-70? If so, what do you prefer. Probably not a lot of difference, but thought I'd ask. I am leaning toward the 45-90 just because it's different and unique.
I haven't been around in a spell. Been busy building a 720 sq. ft. Cabin and enjoying my retirement. Life is good.

[Don McDowell]

If a person runs 3f powder in the 45-70 it will kick it up into 45-90 territory so in practicle terms not much point. If you load smokeless you can drive the 45-70 well past anything that can be achieved with the longer 45 cal cases and bp.
With all that said the 45-90 is a good cartridge and I would be the last one to talk anybody out of buying another rifle. So why not do something completely different with your next order and go with something unique and affective like the 44-77 or 44-90?

[Ray Newman]

I am fortunate enough to have two Shiloh M1874’s in .45-2.4” (AKA .45-90) and Business Rifles in .45-2.1” (AKA .45-70) and .50-70 Gov‘t. One of the .45-2.4” rifles is almost 25 years old; the other about three years old. I purchase the .45 calibre Business Rifle in December 2009. I also have numerous other .45-2.1” rifles. So I guess I do have some experience with the calibres that you mentioned.

For various and sundry reasons, I no longer hunt. My shooting is now at paper targets from the bench at mostly 100 and 200 yards with Black Powder and now paper patch bullets.

As Don McDowell posted, you can improve the .45-2.1” performance by simply loading with FFFg Black Powder. Or, a Duplex load. Same can be done with smokeless powders. Shiloh rifles are very strong and can handle increased pressures. Talk to Kirk at Shiloh about this.

A Shiloh .45-2.4” will handle Winchester M1886 .45-90 loads. I once loaded some 405 grain bullet .45-90 smokeless loads found in an old Lyman reloading manual. Shot ‘like-a-house-a-fire‘, and it definitely let me know when I touched it off. Glad the rifle has a shotgun butt to “soften” the recoil.

Something to consider about the Business Rifle:
-- Some do find the standard butt plate on the Business Rifle uncomfortable.

-- Shiloh now shapes the fore end with a rounded tip. If you want the schnabble fore end, you will need to specify that on your order.

--Shiloh does not routinely make a run of round barrel rifles. Call to determine when the next run of round barrel rifles and Business Rifles will occur.

-- If you order options, such as engraving, higher end wood finishes, etc., this will increase the length of time it takes to build the rifle.

Something else to bear in mind. If you chamber the rifle for a .45-2.4” and leave your ammunition at home, you probably will be “sh*t-outta-luck” as .45-90 commercial ammunition is not readily available. It is fair easier to purchase commercial 45-70 ammunition. Now some say that you can chamber and shoot .45-70 ammunition in a .45-2.4”, but in my rifles, I found that the accuracy was just not there from increased powder fouling, bullet jump, etc. Not saying or implying that you (or anyone else) would take the wrong ammunition afield, but I have found that sh*t happens when you least expect it and at the most inopportune times.

In my opinion, the Business Rifle is the “sleeper” of the Shiloh rifle models. The Business Rifle is a handy, quick to point little rifle despite its 28“ barrel as there is no lever or bolt action increase to the overall length of the rifle. For carrying in the woods or in the field, you might also think about some type of sling.

And do not sell the .45-2.1” short on performance. It is known to shoot through a buffalo with Black Powder and the old tried and true 500 grain Gov’t style bullet.

[Jarhead]

If a person runs 3f powder in the 45-70 it will kick it up into 45-90 territory so in practicle terms not much point. If you load smokeless you can drive the 45-70 well past anything that can be achieved with the longer 45 cal cases and bp.
With all that said the 45-90 is a good cartridge and I would be the last one to talk anybody out of buying another rifle. So why not do something completely different with your next order and go with something unique and affective like the 44-77 or 44-90?

Don,

Thanks for your input. My "Wild West" lever pushes a 350gr at 2200fps and a 400gr at 2000fps, and it's stainless, so that's my foul weather rifle. 44-77 0r 44-90? food for thought.

[Don McDowell]

The neat thing about going with the 44's now is after I led the charge to get Jamison to build the brass to the Shiloh specs that Kirk had provided them, the brass for the 77 is available now, and the 90 should be showing up just shortly.
I currently have 100 rounds loaded for my 44-77 , and 100 more brass just waiting for powder and ball,that with a little luck will be done about labor day.

[Jarhead]

I am fortunate enough to have two Shiloh M1874’s in .45-2.4” (AKA .45-90) and Business Rifles in .45-2.1” (AKA .45-70) and .50-70 Gov‘t. One of the .45-2.4” rifles is almost 25 years old; the other about three years old. I purchase the .45 calibre Business Rifle in December 2009. I also have numerous other .45-2.1” rifles. So I guess I do have some experience with the calibres that you mentioned.

For various and sundry reasons, I no longer hunt. My shooting is now at paper targets from the bench at mostly 100 and 200 yards with Black Powder and now paper patch bullets.

As Don McDowell posted, you can improve the .45-2.1” performance by simply loading with FFFg Black Powder. Or, a Duplex load. Same can be done with smokeless powders. Shiloh rifles are very strong and can handle increased pressures. Talk to Kirk at Shiloh about this.

A Shiloh .45-2.4” will handle Winchester M1886 .45-90 loads. I once loaded some 405 grain bullet .45-90 smokeless loads found in an old Lyman reloading manual. Shot ‘like-a-house-a-fire‘, and it definitely let me know when I touched it off. Glad the rifle has a shotgun butt to “soften” the recoil.

Something to consider about the Business Rifle:
-- Some do find the standard butt plate on the Business Rifle uncomfortable.

-- Shiloh now shapes the fore end with a rounded tip. If you want the schnabble fore end, you will need to specify that on your order.

--Shiloh does not routinely make a run of round barrel rifles. Call to determine when the next run of round barrel rifles and Business Rifles will occur.

-- If you order options, such as engraving, higher end wood finishes, etc., this will increase the length of time it takes to build the rifle.

Something else to bear in mind. If you chamber the rifle for a .45-2.4” and leave your ammunition at home, you probably will be “sh*t-outta-luck” as .45-90 commercial ammunition is not readily available. It is fair easier to purchase commercial 45-70 ammunition. Now some say that you can chamber and shoot .45-70 ammunition in a .45-2.4”, but in my rifles, I found that the accuracy was just not there from increased powder fouling, bullet jump, etc. Not saying or implying that you (or anyone else) would take the wrong ammunition afield, but I have found that sh*t happens when you least expect it and at the most inopportune times.

In my opinion, the Business Rifle is the “sleeper” of the Shiloh rifle models. The Business Rifle is a handy, quick to point little rifle despite its 28“ barrel as there is no lever or bolt action increase to the overall length of the rifle. For carrying in the woods or in the field, you might also think about some type of sling.

And do not sell the .45-2.1” short on performance. It is known to shoot through a buffalo with Black Powder and the old tried and true 500 grain Gov’t style bullet.

Ray,

Thanks for your knowledge, experience, and input. I love my stainless "Wild West" in 45-70/457 WW Mag. But, sure glad I have a decent recoil pad on her. 350gr at 2200fps and 400gr at 2000fps.
The "Business Rifle" is my choice out of all the Shilohs available. Yep, I'll go with the metal 'shotgun' butt plate. I want 'Bone Charcoal' for my metal with 'fire blued' screws. Also, one step up from standard on the wood. Polished barrel too. Now that you mentioned it, slings are a great idea. I still hunt, but not as often as I use too. I shoot on my farm at 1-200 yards for entertainment and to keep my shooting skills squared away. I e-mailed Shiloh from web site, but haven't heard back. Maybe it's best that I give them a call.
I have killed a lot of 'big game' and with exception to an Elk and Dall Sheep, all my shots have been under 100 yards. So yes, never sell the 'ole' 45-70 short. Or the 'ole 30-06.........

[Jarhead]

The neat thing about going with the 44's now is after I led the charge to get Jamison to build the brass to the Shiloh specs that Kirk had provided them, the brass for the 77 is available now, and the 90 should be showing up just shortly.
I currently have 100 rounds loaded for my 44-77 , and 100 more brass just waiting for powder and ball,that with a little luck will be done about labor day.

Very cool Sounds like a lot of fun...and it's unique.

[Don McDowell]

The 44-77 was the first creedmoor cartridge and was very popular in the buffalo shoot.
I have a friend with 2 new shilohs and he's been pumping me load data. We'll get together at the Quigley and I'll get to burn some of my ammo thru his guns.
Have another friend with 2 shiloh 44-90's and those are deadly accurate. He had a video of the buff he shot with one of those rifles posted for awhile, but I think he's taken it down now.

[Griff]

I have neither a 45-70 nor 45-90 Sharps, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

(I do have a Browning '86 in 45-70 and find that it'll do anything on this continent that I'd want it to. I do have a 40-90BN in a Shiloh 1874. I bought the rifle to hunt with and an occasional competition. I was well advised to go with the .45-70 as it was capable of both functions with a minimum of fuss and muss. The 45-90 ain't the .40-90BN, so loading it with BP isn't the art it is with my choice.

But, most importantly, really, the available commercial brass isn't the issue with the .45-70 that it might become with the .45-90. Don't get me wrong, I love both the difficulty of loading good, accurate BP ammo with my .40-90BN, plus it's different factor is, IMO, too cool.

Regardless, with the Shiloh, you won't go wrong. And a shotgun butt will be a definite asset when you start shooting more than just a couple shots... My rifle weighs in at 12 lbs 1 oz, just under the NRA BPCR limit of 12lb 3oz; and, it gets rather much a challenge to not flinch at the end of an 80 round match! Oh yea, it has the shotgun butt!

If you think you might wanna compete, I'd advise getting the 45-70, and let Shiloh know that up front so they can make sure your rifle will make weight.

[Jarhead]

Griff,

Thanks for your input. Looks like we are on the same page. The 45-70 will do it all. And, recoil does become an issue after a long string of shots. My 1885 45-70 is set up for competition, so good advice to see how the "Business" rifle weighs into the picture. I'll ask em' ....I have never shot BP, so this is going to be fun for sure.

[Ray Newman]

Jarhead: check your PM's.

[Don McDowell]

Shouldn't be any problem with the business rifle making "weight".
I've shot alot of matches with my 74 with the "military" butt like the business rifle has. It's not any worse than the shotgun butt except for maybe shooting from prone, but that's what they sell the shooters friend recoil pads for.

[Pitchy]

Pictures of some of those awesome guns would be very cool.

[Ray Newman]

Jarhead: I ‘dunno’ where in Oregon you live, but here’s a list of some Oregon Black Powder matches.

Bend -- Great Basin Sharpshooters
Buffalo gong matches lead bullets no gas checks, lever or single shot
Rod Compuzano -- rj_camp@msn.com
http://www.Oregonshooting.com

Millican Valley Sharpshooters
Alex Huston -- ahuston4590@aol.com

Grants Pass
BPCR Silhouette matches
John Hudick -- oregonjohn@oigp.net

[Jarhead]

Ray,

I live outside of Canyon City...I'm about 3 hours from Bend. We actually have BP matches right here locally. I just haven't got involved yet. That's gonna change though. Say, I called Shiloh today and it looks like they plan on doing a run of round barrels at the end of this year or the begining of next year. They think I should have the rifle in perhaps less than a year, so I'm going to place my order now. Thanks for the tip and the info on shoots here in Oregon. I'm glad I called Shiloh today. Made my day.

I have plenty of other stuff to shoot in the meantime and this will give me something to look forward to.

OhhRa! I'm excited...