Nuther potentially stupid question about bullets in .45 rifl

[J Miller]

rifles.

We've been discussing the BC of various bullets in various calibers lately and it got me to thinking again. Thinking really gives me a headache.

OK, in another thread it was said that the 300 to 325gr .45 Cal bullet was a good bullet weight for long range shooting.
So my question is which of the very many choices of 300gr bullets has shown to be the most consistently accurate bullet from rifles at longer ranges?

So far I've only tried a couple and only at fairly short ranges so my own tests gives me no answers.

Joe

[Hobie]

The furthest measured distance I've gotten to shoot my guns for a while has been to 150 yards. All the 300 gr. jacketed did well in the appropriate rifles (.451" or .458" bullets). I don't get to shoot at 600 much anymore. I certainly don't get to shoot game at 600 yards distance!

[Don McDowell]

Which 45 cal rifle?
In the colt 300ish is about all that's going to chamber without taking up all the room in the cartridge case and about all the twist will handle.
In the 45-70 etal, 480-550 gr is going to be the best at long range. I do use the 385 gr government bullet for offhand to 350 yds. I'm also working with some 425 gr patched bullets for the short to midrange stuff, showing some promise.

[J Miller]

Which 45 cal rifle?
In the colt 300ish is about all that's going to chamber without taking up all the room in the cartridge case and about all the twist will handle.
In the 45-70 etal, 480-550 gr is going to be the best at long range. I do use the 385 gr government bullet for offhand to 350 yds. I'm also working with some 425 gr patched bullets for the short to midrange stuff, showing some promise.

Well Don, it sure would have helped if I'd put that in wouldn't it? Caliber .45 Colt, 20" Marlin 1894 Cowboy. Rifling twist 1-16 ... I think.

I'm pretty sure I want to try the 300gr bullets, it's a good round number. But, which one is the question.

Joe

[Griff]

When one starts slingin lead outta a pistol caliber rifle beyond 250 yards, accuracy becomes relative. I ain't a paper-puncher... I like steel, and unless they're knock-downs, ANY hit is acceptable! Therefor, I don't do jacketed.

[J Miller]

When one starts slingin lead outta a pistol caliber rifle beyond 250 yards, accuracy becomes relative. I ain't a paper-puncher... I like steel, and unless they're knock-downs, ANY hit is acceptable! Therefor, I don't do jacketed.

Griff,
I have no problem with jacketed other than it costs so much. As for the targets being steel knock downs that is perzactly what I'm thinking of.
Well, eventually when I get back out west there's some really vicious rocks that need shot.

Joe

[Griff]

Me either, but I save the jacketed stuff fer huntin'!

[AJMD429]

We've been discussing the BC of various bullets in various calibers lately and it got me to thinking again. Thinking really gives me a headache. OK, in another thread it was said that the 300 to 325gr .45 Cal bullet was a good bullet weight for long range shooting.

I think it would depend on whether you are firing it from a .45 Colt vs. a .460 Weatherby - if you could get a long, pointy 500 gr bullet to a given velocity, with the proper twist, I think it would have to be 'better' than a 325 grain one - higher sectional density and higher ballistic coefficient would maintain velocity better!

Within the range of calibers we deal with (say .17 to .50) I'll bet the physics is pretty uniform, so you'd have the 'major' factors be the same for each one. Just kinda thinking through the obvious ones:

• sectional density - just weight vs. diameter, basically
  bullet shape - affects sectional density by affecting length, for a given diameter
  revolutions per minute - note velocity affects this, not just 'twist rate'
  surface material - affects acceleration in the barrel, deceleration in the air
  velocity - super-sonic, sub-sonic, or transitioning - obviously interacts with shape
  weight - for the desired velocity, how much pressure/recoil you'll be dealing with

For EACH gun weight and caliber, therefore, you could theoretically pick a given velocity, then for that velocity, a maximum feasable bullet weight, depending on how much pressure/recoil was acceptable. From that, you'd have your sectional density, then shape options and r.p.m. requirements. The r.p.m. needs and your velocity would dictate your twist rate, and mostly your surface material.

I know all that is sort of obvious, and that the REAL proof is at the range, with a real gun, cartridge, and bullet, but it's always seemed to me that the ballisticians could in fact advise us of the 'best' bullet for each caliber, given the velocities we desire, and the heft of the gun we want to endure. Sort of a 'chart' for any general gun size (i.e. handgun, carbine, rifle, bench-gun), that would have for each caliber a series of optimal bullet weights for any given velocity, with the twist required, and the implications as to shape and jacketing.

Of course, THEN you'd have to have another variable, such as "allowable cartridge length for that gun", so it would get pretty messy really fast...

All in all, I think I'd just rather go to the range with what I happened to have, and play around with some different bullets, and see what happened - it seems that most of the time, 'reality' doesn't necessarily jive with the fancy theory on how stuff should work, anyhow.

[Don McDowell]

Joe find a 300 gr rndnosed cast bullet intended for the 45-70, slam it thru a lee size die and get right after it. I've done that with some 300ish gr bullets and they worked pretty fair.

[J Miller]

Joe find a 300 gr rndnosed cast bullet intended for the 45-70, slam it thru a lee size die and get right after it. I've done that with some 300ish gr bullets and they worked pretty fair.

Don,

I hadn't thought of sizing down 45-70 bullets. That might be the trick.

Joe

[BigSky56]

Joe, laser cast makes a 300 gr bullet in 45 colt and a 300 for 45-70 that you could resize to .452 the prices include shipping. danny
http://www.laser-cast.com/45Cal.html

[J Miller]

I've got some of those double crimp grove truncated cone 300 gr bullets already loaded. Their little skinny grease grove makes me wonder how they'll work out of rifles.

Joe

[BigSky56]

Joe I run them in a pistol and rifle for plinking and havent tried to run them fast, as long as your under 1400 in a rifle they should be lead free I coat mine with lee alox just in case. I use a WFN gc in 300 gr for serious stuff and hunting good to 100 yds accuracy if I was going longer I would use a LFN. danny

[J Miller]

Joe I run them in a pistol and rifle for plinking and havent tried to run them fast, as long as your under 1400 in a rifle they should be lead free I coat mine with lee alox just in case. I use a WFN gc in 300 gr for serious stuff and hunting good to 100 yds accuracy if I was going longer I would use a LFN. danny

Danny,

Thanks. The WFN / LFN comments help quite a bit.

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
I have worked with five different 300+ gr bullets in my Marlin 45 Colt Cowboy.
457191 - 300 gr
RCBS 300 FN GC - 300 gr.
457122 - 330 gr hollow point
Lee - 340 gr
457192 - 350 gr. (457122 without the hollow point)

All will feed just fine through my rifle and give good down range performance to 500 meters.
If a .458" diameter bullet will fit into a fired case then just shoot them at .458. That has worked well for me.

Here's a vendor who can supply most of them. They show the 457122 at 300 grs. but the correct weight should be 330 gr.
http://westernbullet.com/45riflecaliber.html

457122 in the 45 colt - http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=22882
A lengthy but very informative thread.

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

Unless Western has payed alot more serious attention to quality in the last few years, Montana Bullet works is a much better option for commercial cast bullets.

[J Miller]

w30wcf,
Thanks for the links. I've bookmarked the bullet company and will give the other thread a read.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

When looking at twist rates for the Marlin, the website was WRONG for at least a decade. Both my CB-Ls built around ten years ago are NOT the twist advertized. The advertized 1 in 16 or 1 in 20 (whatever it was) twist was flat out wrong. What they produced was in fact the same lazy twist as the .44, 1 in 38. I personally wrote to the head honcho at Ilion and got em to fix the website a few months ago after I noticed what a real 1 in 16 barrel looks like (aa Douglas barrel I had made for a rolling block), and got a case of WTF? and measured my Marlins with the patched rod method.

[J Miller]

When looking at twist rates for the Marlin, the website was WRONG for at least a decade. Both my CB-Ls built around ten years ago are NOT the twist advertized. The advertized 1 in 16 or 1 in 20 (whatever it was) twist was flat out wrong. What they produced was in fact the same lazy twist as the .44, 1 in 38. I personally wrote to the head honcho at Ilion and got em to fix the website a few months ago after I noticed what a real 1 in 16 barrel looks like (aa Douglas barrel I had made for a rolling block), and got a case of WTF? and measured my Marlins with the patched rod method.

So a 2005 vintage 1894 Cowboy .45 Colt may have a 1-38 twist?
I hope not. I'll have to check it now.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

Joe, if ya simply look in the barrel and it appears like the twist is kinda lazy, it is 1 in 38. If it is 5 years old, it surely is 1 in 38. A 1 in 16 or 1 in 20 will look almost like a car's coil spring by comparison. Of course I exaggerate, but one is real long, the other is kinda "busy".

Using the patched cleaning rod method to check (mark the side of the rod, draw it out slow and watch the mark), in a 20 or 24" barrel, if ya only get a partial rotation, a little more than half, ya know what ya got.

[J Miller]

Yeah, my 85 vintage 94AE Win Trapper in .45 Colt has the 1-38 twist. I suppose I could also just visually compare them.

A 1-38 twist is suppose to hamper the .44 Mags with heavy for caliber bullets, I wonder if it does the same things to .45 Colts?

Joe

[adirondakjack]

I have not used anything heavier in the Marlin than a 300 XTP or the 300 LEE GC bullet (actual weight 318 grains), and they both printed well. IMHO much more bullet than that in a .45 Colt case ya end up running out of room for propellant anyway.

[w30wcf]

A 1-38 twist is suppose to hamper the .44 Mags with heavy for caliber bullets, I wonder if it does the same things to .45 Colts?
Joe

Joe,
My 1894 Marlin 45 Colt Cowboy has the 1/38 inch twist and as long as the muzzle velocity is higher than 1,300 f.p.s., the 350 gr bullets (457192) and the hollow point version (457122 - 330 grs.) shoot very well. Accuracy is maintained even out to 500 meters where the NRA High Power Silhouette ram is.

If you look down your barrel and see that the twist does not do a least 1 full turn, its a 1/38.

The .457-.458 diameter bullets loaded in 45 colt cases take up more windage in the chamber which aligns the bullet more accurately with the bore. (Make sure that they will fit into fired cases with the crimp removed before using them.)

20/296 does 1,400 fps with the 350's and is my favorite load with them. 18.5/Lil Gun pushes them to 1,500 f.p.s. and shoots well also.

Don,
Thank you for the "heads up" on Western Bullets. I have never purchased anything from them.

w30wcf

[Don McDowell]

The nice part about getting the bullets from MBW is you can get them with several choices of lubes and sized to your specs.
Western uses/used what I presume to maybe have been rooster red, most of it fell out of the bullets during shipment....

[J Miller]

Joe, if ya simply look in the barrel and it appears like the twist is kinda lazy, it is 1 in 38. If it is 5 years old, it surely is 1 in 38. A 1 in 16 or 1 in 20 will look almost like a car's coil spring by comparison. Of course I exaggerate, but one is real long, the other is kinda "busy".

Using the patched cleaning rod method to check (mark the side of the rod, draw it out slow and watch the mark), in a 20 or 24" barrel, if ya only get a partial rotation, a little more than half, ya know what ya got.

NUTS! NUTS! NUTS! NUTS! Well you were right. The miserable jokers at Marlin LIED. My 1894 Cowboy does have the 1-38 twist.
I compared it to my 1985 Win 94AE and they look identical.

Well, now I'm really not a happy camper.
Hopefully when I can get to the outdoor range it will shoot 300 gr bullets good.

Joe

[adirondakjack]

Joe, when I discovered it (quite by accident, visually it was so much different from my Douglas 1 in 16 barrel) I was sick. All these years I'd read about the 1 in 38 with the .44, and felt better with the .45, etc. But as I said, after sorta getting over being lied to, I realized that by gumbo the rifle musta believed the lie too, because it printed the 300s and 318s quite well.

[J Miller]

Joe, when I discovered it (quite by accident, visually it was so much different from my Douglas 1 in 16 barrel) I was sick. All these years I'd read about the 1 in 38 with the .44, and felt better with the .45, etc. But as I said, after sorta getting over being lied to, I realized that by gumbo the rifle musta believed the lie too, because it printed the 300s and 318s quite well.

Well, both you and w30wcf have said they shoot good with heavier bullets, so I really shouldn't worry. I've got some 300gr bullets loaded up just to test from the lever guns. I don't even want to shoot them from the revolvers. Last time I did I thought my wrist broke on me. Well, maybe I'll shoot a couple from the Ruger ... maybe.

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
Here's a pic of the 300-350 gr bullets I have used successfully in my 45 Colt with the 1/38 twist.
I've also used the 340 Lee but did not have any bullets from the last run to include in the pic.



w30wcf

[J Miller]

w30wcf,

I be likin that 457191. Of those in your pic the 457191 and the 457122 /192 are the ones I like the most. I don't care for the bevel based ones although they do seem to work just fine in the rifles.
The gas checked ones look like they could use some more grease groves.

Thanks for the picture.

Joe

[txpete]

http://www.ranchdogoutdoors.com/

[J Miller]

Pete,

Thanks for the link.

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
The 457191, 457122 and 457192 are from the black powder era and thus have extra lube capacity. The RCBS, LBT and Magma even though they don't carry as much lube on board, work just fine with smokeless, even in 24" barrels....

w30wcf

[J Miller]

w30wcf,

What is your opinion of the Lee 300gr FPGC bullet. I don't remember it's number off the top of my head, but it's the right one in the pic below?

Lee 255 and 300 RF.JPG

I bought a used 2 cavity mold for it and the 255gr bullet next to it last year.

Joe

[w30wcf]

Joe,
That lee bullet is a big game "smacker" for sure and should be pretty accurate to 100 yards.
Due to the large meplat, accuracy will really diminish at longer distances based on my experience with large meplat 45 colt bullets.

w30wcf

[J Miller]

I've got some loaded up. I've got to get out and try them. I suspect they'd make a better handgun bullet than rifle.

Joe