.38 WCF questions

336A · Post by **336A** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:16 pm

As I posted in the Guns Of the West thread I've always been interested with this cartridge. I don't know why I just am. I think it makes more sense than the 44-40 but of course that is just my personal preference. I know that it was in third place as far as sales of Colt SAA firearms go. However just how popular was it with folks who worked on both sides of the law during the late 1800's? Most of thime all all you really hear or read about is the 44-40 or the .45 Colt so what is the concensus of the .38-40 of everyone here?

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 3:53 pm

I've not used it in a rifle, but really do like it in handguns. Skeeter Skelton put it best when he said they didn't need the new fancy 10mm cartridge that had already been taken care of it was the 38-40.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 4:08 pm

read this
http://www.chuckhawks.com/38-40win.htm
it is my favorite round...and my 92 is my most
accurate levergun..its a little bit of a pain to reload....
ya just have to be careful and clean and lube the brass

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 8:34 pm

I have one SAA and 3 rifles chambered for this cartridge. I started shooting it in a 1892 back about the time that the 40 S&W got real popular, and boy was I glad for the bullet supply! A cannelure added to any 40 bullet makes it perfect. I've since added the SAA and two '73s and all shoot exceedingly well. It's one of my favorite cartridges from plinking and varmints to deer if you choose your shots. Get one and enjoy the obsession!

Ed

PS. That Chuck Hawks article is severely dated. Brass is available from Starline for relatively cheap, and as I said, bullet availability is out of this world if you invest in a hand cannelure tool from CH Tool and Die or Corbin. Any 40 bullet is just right. Beware of revolvers with throats too tight which size the bullets under the groove diameter of the barrel as they won't shoot for shinola. But a quick trip to a Sunnen Hone at your local machine shop will remedy that real quick.

Harry O · Post by **Harry O** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 9:51 pm

I shoot 38-40 in CAS. Two Uberti SAA Cattleman, a Uberti Bisley (backup) and a Uberti Winchester 1873 clone. All are in 38-40 and all work very well.

I also have some 44-40's. I strongly recommend the 38-40 over the 44-40. The reason has nothing to do with the cartridge. The four 44-40's I have have messed up dimensions. Small cylinder throats, oversize barrels, etc. Accuracy was very poor at the start. It took several trips to the manufacturer and to a couple of gunsmiths before I could get them to reasonable accuracy. They are a mix of .44 Magnum parts and other parts made for the gun. I did not have the same problem with my 38-40's. All dimensions are correct for the cartridge. Accuracy was better right out of the box than the reworked 44-40's were.

Anyway, I found out when trying top end loads with the SAA's that the center cylinder pin would sometimes pop loose, tying up the gun. This did not happen with lighter, CAS loads. I replaced them all with Belt Mountain center pins. No more problems. I had one of the springs that returns the trigger and bolt break after about 200-300 rounds. I replaced them all with the wire springs being sold everywhere. No more problems. The mainspring was pretty darned heavy. I replaced all of them with aftermarket lighter mainsprings. No more problems. That is all I have done and have used them two seasons without any problems.

The rifle had a VERY strong safety spring that kept the lever away from the stock and prevented the gun from being fired unless you squeezed really, really hard. Again, there are after market springs that take care of this problem, too.

I have settled on 5.0gr of Trail Boss with them for CAS. I have used heavier loads of Unique and 2400 when experimenting to find out its limits before backing everything down for CAS.

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Sat Mar 06, 2010 11:37 pm

The 38/40 may actually work a bit better in M. 92 type actions as it has a bit more taper which improves feeding and chambering. It's a bit easier on the shoulder when using thin clothing than the 44/40 too.

336A · Post by **336A** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 11:17 am

By all acounts it sounds like it should have been more popular than it was. I know this may be saralige but how well does .38 WCF work with modern jacketed bullets?

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:02 pm

336A wrote:As I posted in the Guns Of the West thread I've always been interested with this cartridge. I don't know why I just am. I think it makes more sense than the 44-40 but of course that is just my personal preference. I know that it was in third place as far as sales of Colt SAA firearms go. However just how popular was it with folks who worked on both sides of the law during the late 1800's? Most of thime all all you really hear or read about is the 44-40 or the .45 Colt so what is the concensus of the .38-40 of everyone here?

Local fella here showed me his grandfather's SAA and badge. The grandfather had served as a lawman back in the day, and his Colt SAA was his daily carry. The pistol was stunning, with factory engraving and a nickel finish! Caliber 38-40.

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:46 pm

336A wrote:By all acounts it sounds like it should have been more popular than it was. I know this may be saralige but how well does .38 WCF work with modern jacketed bullets?

All 4 of mine shoot best with jacketed. I've never found a cast load that shoots well in any of them. But all shoot exceptionally well with Jacketed.

Ed

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 1:55 pm

336A wrote:As I posted in the Guns Of the West thread I've always been interested with this cartridge. I don't know why I just am. I think it makes more sense than the 44-40 but of course that is just my personal preference. I know that it was in third place as far as sales of Colt SAA firearms go. However just how popular was it with folks who worked on both sides of the law during the late 1800's? Most of thime all all you really hear or read about is the 44-40 or the .45 Colt so what is the concensus of the .38-40 of everyone here?

i'm that way with the.44henry rimfire flat,even though i don't own a 1860 colt chambered for one

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun Mar 07, 2010 10:23 pm

The 38 WCF (38-40) is one of my favorite cartridges. I had an original Model 1892 chambered in it, but sold it and have just acquired an original Winchester Model 1873 in 38-40 that I'm looking forward to trying out as soon as I can get some bullets casted up. Here's my old timer 38-40 ....

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 7:16 am

Kirk and I got into the 38-WCF about the same time. I still have my 1892.

Here it is after doing what it was supposed to.
Gobbler

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:27 am

It is hard to say what subjective stuff makes me like a particular cartridge. One is definitely its age. It came out around 1879. Another, at least for me, is its appearance. There is something about this fat little, slightly bottle necked cartridge that I really like. Here's a photo of some of my cast bullets and what the finished cartridge looks like for those who may not be familiar with it ...

No one really seems to know for sure why it is called a 38-40; it was not a 38 caliber, nor did it use 40 grains of powder. It is actually a 40 caliber that originally used 38 grains of black powder under a 180 grain pure lead bullet, according to my 1895 Winchester catalogue. It is hard to say for sure what the original ballistics were, but my copy of an 1895 catalogue lists the 38 WCF (38-40) at 1,268 fps for a 180 grain bullet. Another table I have for the turn of the century ballistics where smokeless powder was being used for the factory loads lists the 38-40 at 1,325 fps for a 180 grain bullet. This load was safe for the original Winchester Model 1873. Winchester also produced a 'High Velocity' (W.H.V.) load for the 38-40 for use only in the Model 92 that gave 1,770 fps with a 180 grain bullet. That is getting up close to 30-30 170 grain hand loaded ballistics, but with a fatter bullet, however, I don't know how long the brass would last with these H.V. loads. My rifle is an original '73, so I'll be keeping my velocity down around 1,325 to 1,350 fps.

I know that in this modern age people have been programmed to think a fellow needs a 338 Win. Mag. for Whitetail deer, but the 38-40 has taken an awful lot of deer in the late 1800's and early 1900's. I think it is especially suited for the kind of short range hunting encountered in the bush, where shots are usually less than 100 yards. With proper bullet placement, and a pure lead or soft cast lead bullet (8 BHN or thereabouts), it is fine for Whitetail deer at ranges of 100 yards and less. I'll be hunting Whitetail deer this fall with either my 38-40 or my 45-60 '76. I haven't yet decided which one.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 12:08 am

Elk With A 38 WCF

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... h-a-38-40-!!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 5:13 am

Possible reason why Winchester introduced the 38wcf...

"Colt and Winchester had a bit of a gentlemans agreement whereby Colt wouldn't market a lever action rifle and Winchester wouldn't manufacture a revolver. When Winchester came out with the 44 wcf there were some complaints that it was a bit stout for a handgun. Winchester knew that something a bit lighter would be popular so they introduced the 38 wcf in the 1873 even though it offered nothing that the 44 couldn't provide. Winchester was savvy. They knew that colt would offer the 38wcf in their revolver line and they would reap profits in their ammunition sales."

cas · Post by **cas** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:45 am

In a Ruger Blackhawk with modern level loads, it's a 41 Magnum and then some. In a custom 5 shot revolver it's a rocket.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:55 am

Great cartridge! I currently have 4 single action Colts, Ruger single action, Colt Lightning pump, 2 1892's, 2 1873's, and an '89 Marlin in this cartridge. I use one bullet for 99% of all shooting........the 175 gr. Lyman TC designed for the 40 S&W, sized .401. A Lee factory crimp die holds everything tight.

Like Harry say's, dimensions for the 38 WCF are very uniform and all groove diameters of my guns measure .400-.401. If a gun dont shoot exceptionly well, I get rid of it, and these guns of mine are and have been long time keepers.

Play loads get 6 grains of Bullseye, midrange get 9 grains of Herco, and semi-heavy get 17 grains of 2400

Two of my Holy Grail 38-40's

This one may be unfired...built in '91

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 7:29 am

Didn't know much of anything about this cartridge, but it sounds like it would be a good one. 180 grain bullets at 1300 fps or thereabouts should penetrate very well on just about any animal you might want to use it on.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 10:12 am

38-40 is my favorite and most accurate round I reload...
love my 1926 Winchester model 92 rifle ....

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 11:01 am

I am lucky enough to possess a Ruger Buckeye Special Blackhawk convertible, 38-40/10mm.

Never shot the 10mm cylinder, but do shoot the 38-40. Great little round that you can load up or down, in other words load it from "from mild to wild." Never loaded it with cast bullets; instead I shoot a mild Trail Boss load with copper plated lead bullets from Berry Manufacturing.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:14 pm

Ray,
Go ahead and use that 10 mm cylinder. Mine is unbelievably accurate, even more so than the 38-40. It's a smaller case and extreme spreads are closer, plus it takes a fairly hot load more easily than the 38-40 case.......that and they last longer. A 200 grain bullet at 1050-1100 drills the 10" 200 meter plate.-----6

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 4:12 pm

My thoughts is, if weren't for my buying 357 Mags back in the 70's, I'd probably have a bunch of different 38WCF's. Still think about the beat up Marlin 94 at Cabela's in '10 for $350 that I really came back for to give a home to, and I was too late cuz it was already sold.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:26 pm

By the end of next week I should have everything on site to finally
get these two items up and running.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:28 am

The 38WCF is my favorite of the Winchester "pistol cartridges". I've never owned a revolver in it but I currently have seven rifles and carbines in this chambering. Five are Winchester 92 rifles or carbines in various configuration, one is a third model 73SRC, and the seventh is an 89 Marlin rifle with a two thirds magazine.
I agree with everything the above gentlemen have stated. It's bore dimensions are more consistent than the 44. I shoot the same load in all seven of my 38's. Every one of my four 44's require something completely different from the rest. Like Cas, I load for them with the factory Winchester loading tool for fun and it works beautifully. I use the old Lyman 401043 180gr bullet with great results. Many have trouble with this bullet pushing into the case due to no crimp groove (it's the old black powder bullet made to sit on the charge). I never have had that problem and push it with 8 or 9gr. of Unique.
As far as popularity, at least here in Maine, the 38-40 like the 38-55 was very popular. If you see a 92 sitting on the gunshop rack, there is a good chance it'll be 38 in these parts. When I was a kid and started playing with old Winchesters, all I wanted was a 44 like the cowboys. I used to get so mad cause I could never find one. A couple years later I bought my first 38 and understood why.

Them ole Maine hicks were pretty knowin'

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:05 am

OldWin or anyone else that reloads this round.
I'm going to pickup primers today.
For loading this round with BP should I get the regular large pistol primers or the magnum primers?
I'll Be using once fired starline brass.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 9:16 am

casastahle, I use Std. primers in the 38wcf and Swiss 2ff bp. loads . By the way the Winchester tong tool and mould are in great looking shape. That is exactly what I use for loading my 38wcf.73win. but mine do not have that much color left on them.,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 10:01 am

Dusty Texian wrote:casastahle, I use Std. primers in the 38wcf and Swiss 2ff bp. loads . By the way the Winchester tong tool and mould are in great looking shape. That is exactly what I use for loading my 38wcf.73win. but mine do not have that much color left on them.,,,,DT

Thanks Dusty.
The tools are indeed like new condition for there age.
I purchased them through Joe Salter.
They are a great company to deal with.
https://www.joesalter.com/home

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 11:10 am

Cas,

I don't use a lot of BP but I would think with such a short powder column standard primers would work fine.

I noticed your loading tool was really nice also. I got lucky as a friend had a whole box of them in several styles and calibers. They were most all in unused condition and there were several mint condition Winchester moulds too. I got it all for a pittance.........witch is usually my budget.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:34 pm

casastahle, I use regular primers for all my BP loads, tho' I don't load for the 38WCF. One of my good friends from the "good ol' days" of SASS only used that round in both his & his wife's pistols & rifles. Even his backup guns were 38-40! Back then, no one was making replicas in this caliber; and, I've drooled over his collection of original 1st gen Colts & Winchesters many a time!

I've read and talked to guys that swear using magnum improves their SD & ES numbers, but my own experiments don't bear that out. Until recently I didn't have a chronograph and could only go by what the target said. And that wasn't encouraging.

I do, however, tend toward volume loading for CAS, so, except for the Sharps, I'm not looking fir the ultimate in accuracy. I've found the greatest hindrance to accuracy is lube... the right kind and whether you bullet carries enough of it! The most accurate bullet out of my 4-¾" Colt SAAs is the WORST out of my 1873 rifle; it keyholes @ 25 yards after the first shot and leaves hard, crusty fouling in the last 5-6 inches of barrel. It's jut run out of lube by then.

I have, since my trip to CO and the Billy Dixon shoot, some encouragement with Fed "Match" primers. I really need to do some more testing to definitively say they're worth the expense.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 12:56 pm

Thanks & good info. guys.
stopped at 3 different fun stores and not a large pistol primer to be found

Small pistol primers no problem.
What the heck.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 1:15 pm

Griff: primers and Black Powder, sounds like we have been down the same rough and rugged road.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:04 pm

We be depriming & priming old school

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 5:23 pm

Thats the way! DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 7:54 pm

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:21 pm

Looks like its bullet casting time! Some good bp. lube, a case full of bp. and that ole 73 will be ready to rock and roll! I can get 36 to 38 gr. of 2ff Swiss in the Starline case under bullets cast from the Winchester 38wcf mould, with good powder compression. The Winchester tong tool upon seating will give just the right crimp and OAL.Very accurate in the Winchester 73 and feeds very reliable.You cant Miss with the original tools.,,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Jul 26, 2014 8:40 pm

I should be casting next weekend

I have a number of cans of 3f Goex I want to give a try first.
Any idea as to what the old timers and Winchester used for BP bullet lube back in the day?
I'm really trying to get as traditional as I can with this loading endeavor.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:19 am

casastahle wrote:I should be casting next weekend
I have a number of cans of 3f Goex I want to give a try first.
Any idea as to what the old timers and Winchester used for BP bullet lube back in the day?
I'm really trying to get as traditional as I can with this loading endeavor.

3FFF Goex is a very good choice for the .38wcf. Page #62 in the 1875 Winchester Repeating Arms catalog , recomends( equal proportions of tallow and bees wax melted together) for handloading with the Winchester reloading tools of 1875. I use deer tallow & bees wax ,plus a little virgin olive oil melted together in a double boiler,for bp. bullet lube. Sheep, beef or hog tallow will do fine, until deer season rolls around. On a good yr. one fat deer will render enough tallow for my use .Nothing like hearing the old Winchester roar like it did in 1875.,,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 9:38 am

Thanks Dusty for the lube info.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 10:42 am

Dusty,
Is there a shelf life for the 50/50 tallow & beeswax?
How do you store it?
How much olive oil do you add and to what consistency?

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:26 am

Hey casastahle, one cup wax,one cup tallow and one tablespoon of olive oil, works good for me in Tx. with temps from very cold to very hot. I have found that if I pour the melted mix into a dish type paper plate and let it cool . The cake can be poped out ,when cool. I am not a fan of pan lubing.I keep the lube in a sealed plastic bag or a old shoe polish can . For shelf life,never had any go bad . Still have some made two yr. ago.With bp. if after a few shots you can see a lube star starting to build up on the muzzle, the lube is doing its job. ,,,,DT

MacEntyre · Post by **MacEntyre** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 11:31 am

Sixgun wrote:Ray,
Go ahead and use that 10 mm cylinder. Mine is unbelievably accurate

+1 for the Buckeye BH in 10mm... it outshoots all my pistols and some of my rifles!

I bought it as part of a matched pair, 'cause I wanted the other one, in 32-20... was going to sell the 10mm/38-40 until my daughter and I shot it. For a while I was looking for a way to convert a carbine to 10mm, until I realized that it has already been done in the 38-40!

Now I am kicking myself for passing up on two 38-40 Winchesters, one rifle and one carbine, that languished in a local pawn shop a couple of years ago. I let them both get away!

- MacEntyre

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 1:41 pm

Dusty Texian wrote:Hey casastahle, one cup wax,one cup tallow and one tablespoon of olive oil, works good for me in Tx. with temps from very cold to very hot. I have found that if I pour the melted mix into a dish type paper plate and let it cool . The cake can be poped out ,when cool. I am not a fan of pan lubing.I keep the lube in a sealed plastic bag or a old shoe polish can . For shelf life,never had any go bad . Still have some made two yr. ago.With bp. if after a few shots you can see a lube star starting to build up on the muzzle, the lube is doing its job. ,,,,DT

Thanks,
going to give this a try.
I just ordered a pound of pure beeswax & a pound of Buffalo tallow.
If anything, I'm having some good summertime fun with all this.
It's holding me over till the X bow comes out of hibernation.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 5:56 pm

My 1873 Winchester .38wcf and its reloading tools.It gets fed only bp. and bullets cast from the original mould. I think it is my favorite mid-range bp. rifle for knock-around shooting and medium game hunting.,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Jul 27, 2014 6:45 pm

Very nice Dusty

Speaking of that '1875 Winchester Repeating Arms Catalog'
Did you ever sit and read all the customer reviews on the model 73?
Man that rifle in the (at the time) new 44WCF not only walked on water,
in most opinions seemed to not even touch the water.
Almost hard to imagine people today feeling that way about a company
and there products today.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:05 am

Very nice photo casastahle. Yes I have read each and every one.There is no doubt the Model 1873 was well liked .And for the same reasons it was so well accepted then,it is so well liked today. The Lever action cartridge rifle ,known around the world as the American gun. Not to start a war with the .44 /.32 folk but the .38 wcf is my favorite cal.in this model of 1873,it is the middle of the three centerfire choices,and does its job very well.My old rifle will be used on a wild hog hunt in early August. I am sure it will do its job in downing wild hog ,as it has in the past . If I do mine!,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 7:11 am

Dusty,
Do you have & use the steel take down stock stored cleaning rod?
I purchased a reproduction a few years ago.
I kinda wish now I wouldn't have bothered with it.
It jingles around making noise inside the stock.
I get a little paranoid about pushing a steel rod in and out of a freshly
relined barrel that shoots so well. Bottom line I don't use it anymore.
I'll stick with my brass cleaning rod and muzzle protector.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:27 pm

casastahle wrote:Dusty,
Do you have & use the steel take down stock stored cleaning rod?
I purchased a reproduction a few years ago.
I kinda wish now I wouldn't have bothered with it.
It jingles around making noise inside the stock.
I get a little paranoid about pushing a steel rod in and out of a freshly
relined barrel that shoots so well. Bottom line I don't use it anymore.
I'll stick with my brass cleaning rod and muzzle protector.

I do have a couple sets stuffed in a 73 and a 76 or two.Had to pack some cleaning patchs in along with them to stop them from moving. But do I use them ? Not much. They are there if I ever need them. I think that feature was a big plus in the early days.,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 6:05 pm

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:07 pm

KirkD wrote:
No one really seems to know for sure why it is called a 38-40; it was not a 38 caliber, nor did it use 40 grains of powder.

It is actually a 40 caliber that originally used 38 grains of black powder

Maybe someone at Winchester decided that the ".38-40" designation would be less confusing than ".40-38", especially since the ".38-40" fit nicely in with the ".44-40" in their cartridge lineup ( like .25-20 & ,32-20 align).

.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Jul 28, 2014 9:26 pm

Pete,

Interestingly, when the .38 W.C.F. cartridge was intoduced in 1879, it was originally loaded with a 160 gr. bullet and 37 grs. of b.p.

In 1881 the charge was increased to 40 grs. b.p.
In 1882 the bullet weight was increased to 180 grs.
From 1882 to 1891, the .38 W.C.F. contained a 180 gr bullet and 40 grs. of b.p.
In 1892, the charge weight was reduced to 38 grs. b.p.

The .38-40 cartridge always contained 40 grs. of b.p. up until the late 1930's when the b.p. factory loading was dropped.

Winchester adopted the .38-40 moniker in 1946 as it was more popular.

Regarding the U.M.C. / Marlin .38-40 moniker they likely thought that a .40-40 designation sounded too much like .44-40 so they decided to name it .38-40 and the rest is history.......

w30wcf