Field Sidearm - 6" Ruger GP100, 6" S&W 686, or my G20L

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:12 pm

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Halfbreed · Post by **Halfbreed** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:26 pm

Always a fan of the wheel gun. I reload so want to have my brass easily recoverable. Bears are usually loners and don't attack in groups so I figure I'd rarely need even 6 rounds to deal with a bear situation. Hard to beat the reliability of a wheel gun, rarely a jam, and much quicker dealing with a misfire in a high stress situation. Ruggedness of a Ruger GP100 is undeniable but I also appreciate the smoothness of a S&W 686, just wish they came in a handier 5 inch barrel. I wish I still had my 686 but I'm comfortable with my Ruger stainless Blackhawk on my hip. I'm happy and confident with my wheelgun choice but would never knock someone with a auto, main thing is you have something strapped to your hip while in the woods.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:37 pm

Especiallly when you're talking about a serious cartridge like the 10mm, there's certainly nothing wrong with a good autopistol. Without question, an autopistol will give you more rounds, and if that is an important factor to you, fine and good.

I've never yet needed more than 1 or 2 rounds in the woods, and my 4" S&W Model 28 suits the role fine in my hands. So I don't think I'd really consider either choice "better" than the other.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:42 pm

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Halfbreed · Post by **Halfbreed** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 5:54 pm

I guess I have never considered 6 rounds as too few, and if I'm really concerned about bears I pack my Taurus model 44 mag with 6.5 ported barrel. If I'm REALLY concerned with BIG bears then I'll pack my short barreled 12 gauge pumpgun (Win 1300) stoked with 1-3/8 oz. Brenekke slugs. Just my 2 cents worth.

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:00 pm

Interesting comparison Steve. I never realized that the Glock fully loaded is about the same weight as a 686. Having never shot a 10mm how does it compare in recoil? Is it as quick on target for a second shot as one of the revolvers?

Barcelona Rick · Post by **Barcelona Rick** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:12 pm

CO Steve.....a .45 ACP 230 gr JHP+P is 418 ft/lbs at 50 yards....10 MM is close weighing in at 180 grains....ACP ammo is cheaper and easier to find so.......just thinking out loud....

jumbeaux

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:20 pm

Steve -

Ya oughta give the .38 Smith and Wesson Special a try.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... on+Special

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:31 pm

It's kinda hard to compare a Glock to a 686, but for me at least, I can narrow it down real quick to just the 686 and the GLock, because I have shot many thousands of rounds through a Smith and Wesson 586, and I just plain prefer the generally smooth actions of the Smith and Wessons, and I shot one in competion for several years.

Now, the Glock vs the 686 is a different deal. You have to ask yourself, do I like heavy revolvers, or plastic semi-autos better. Frankly, I would probably choose a different revolver, for carry, just because of the weight of that heavy underlugged L-Frame, but for actually shooting heavy .357 loads, it is about my favorite. However, for field carry, I would probaby opt for a 4 inch Smith model 19, or a 4 inch Model 29 in 44 mag, or maybe a 629 mountain gun, with some heavy 44 special handloads.

If I felt better with the Glock, I might just carry it, but maybe not load the clip up full, to reduce the weight a bit, or get a Lawman Dirty Harry shoulderholster for it, one.

Can the Glock 20L shoot cast bullets? Because I think a lot of Glock manuals say not to, and in that case, I would probably opt for a revolver, because I like heavy cast bullets.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:52 pm

Hiya Steve! I didn't realize you were also a 10mm fan. I have a Kimber 1911 in that cartridge and have been considering a Glock companion gun for concealed carry. I use the Kimber when in black bear country (8+1 in the pipe ought to do it!) using 200 or 230 grain Double Tap ammo. Even though it is a full size 1911 it is reletively light and comfortable for me to carry as a woods gun.

When in serious bear country though, the 460 S&W snubbie comes out. It also carries surpisingly well on the hip. It weighs a lot, but is a compact package.

Thanks for the load info and comparison. Could I trouble you for a pic of your Glock? I know that sounds strange but I would appreciate it.

Long live the 10mm!

-Tutt

Birdman · Post by **Birdman** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 9:29 pm

I like what John Taffin says. "Life's too short to live with an ugly gun". I'll keep my revolvers and play my odds that 6 is enough.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Fri Dec 25, 2009 10:50 pm

That's a big 10-4 on Taffin !!

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:55 am

I like the Glock 10 as well. Not as much as i like my particular wheelguns, but i appreciate the purposeful simplicity of the Glock. I'd take one anyday over a garden variety Smith' or ruger in many circumstances. (My Glock lovefest extends only to the 10mm versions, ---the rest i could care less about, and as i former owner of a G21, i can say without blinking that i much prefer the 1911 ---- but i prefer the G20 to the Delta , just not in looks )

Pathfinder09 · Post by **Pathfinder09** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:19 am

I'll take the 10mm anytime! One of my favorite calibers. I wish they made more platforms for it. I always thought the HK USP would be a great platform for the 10mm. I don't have one right now but I'm always on the hunt. I had a Glock 20 but it was like holding a brick. The Colt Delta Elite was the best. IMHO!

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:37 am

One consideration that people over look when thinking about bears is will your auto fire if you jam it against the bear, that you are laying on your back and the bear is chewing on you is more likely than you see him coming at 100 yds and get to plan your shots. So what happens when your auto goes out of battery what steps do you have to take to fire it and in a fight for you life is that someting you want to be worrying about. danny

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:33 am

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COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:43 am

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COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:50 am

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Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:13 pm

Steve -

Maybe ya ought to re-think posting pictures of Hand Grenades (dummy or not). I seem to recall that after 9/11, new laws (federal and local) came out about the possession of them -- even dummys. I think there was a guy in NV prosecuted for having one (and it was a dummy) on display in his living room.

Anyway, this has been a good thread. Thanks for posting it.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:31 pm

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O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:50 pm

Here's my G20SF: (ETA new pic link)

I recently installed a Storm Lake stainless barrel - has standard cut rifling to allow for cast boolits.

You're G20 is impressive! Very nice. I refused to spend money on the G20 due to the fat grip. While I could shoot it fine, it just felt too beefy for my medium sized hands. When the G20SF (short frame - really is narow frame) came out, I snatched it up! Fits my hands great. About the same as my Sprinfield XD45. While I didn't look for one with night sights, this one happened to come so-equiped and I have to say, I like em.

The 1430 fps with 180 grain bullets is impressive. What's the load if you don't mind? I know you're getting some extra fps with the long slide...

I've tried several loads with 180xtp's and Blue Dot but the accuracy wasn't too impressive.

Rifleman336 · Post by **Rifleman336** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:45 pm

Yes the 10mm is a OK, pistol round, but you can't have a companion calibered longgun, save for the CCU unit. Which is clumsy at best. I'm sticking with my Ruger GP-100, six shots and all.

Rifleman 336

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:47 pm

Well, we have some 41 Mag leverguns... perhaps we can get them to make one chambered in 10mm...

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:46 pm

good post. i own the 10mm lite, the .40s&w glock 27. here in pa. you can't hunt with an auto ,so i got to stick with the .357 . i shoot .38 specials a lot, that's a big plus for the wheelgun. but, if it were legal, i'd get a glock 20 as a replacement for the wheelgun, as a back up for hunting big game.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 4:30 pm

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horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 10:04 pm

Relatively speaking I would say your correct! HOWEVER, as long as you do your buisness with the 1st round and there is no requirement for additional rounds! In a bear charge, not sure if I could get 18 rounds off or even the 6 in a revolver, but I wont argue the comfort of 18 would take a bit of the edge off!

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:10 pm

I may agree with you, then again I may not. You're whole reasoning is based off of ammo capacity. Are you hiking in south central LA? You also don't take into account the other things a .357 does like shoot .38's, snake shot and ALL bullet shapes. Also in favor of the ruger or smith: I've never seen a glock that could shoot with either in the accuracy dept. But I'll give semi's this, they're are easier to field strip and clean. When canoeing this is a great feature. Also nice if you are hunting/hiking in lots of rain and mud.

Advantage of the G20:
#1) Holds lots of rounds
#2) Easy to field strip and clean

Advantages of the Ruger or Smith:
#1) Shoots various ammo
#2) Accuracy
#3) Doesn't look like and feel like a brick

Which one wins depends on who is carrying it,

LK

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:13 pm

For a long time I've read that a service grade revolver is generally more accurate than a service grade auto. Do you find the Glock to be accurate enough for your needs?
The last time I was hunting/camping I carried a 5" 1911 as it was, from what I owned at the time, the best combo of portability, accuracy, and power.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:09 am

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AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:42 am

I'm in agreement with CO Steve on this one.

I don't have a 10mm, so the point is moot, but I always wanted a 10mm - ParaOrdnance used to make them, too, and I almost got one, but had to pay rent or some silly thing like that instead.

I wonder if the 10mm had come before the .45 ACP, if it would have 'caught on' or not; I suppose so, as you can make a more compact .45 ACP than you can a 10mm. A full-sized 10mm double-stack for field carry, and a Para P-12 in .45 ACP for CCW, and the only other semiauto handgun I'd want would be a Ruger Mark II.

Too bad Ruger never made their carbine in 10mm, instead of just .40 S&W and 9mm; probably too short of an action and not strong enough?

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:44 am

Good thread, guys. Thanks for all the great pics! I think ideally I would like a smaller 1911 platform in 10mm but since the CZ Dan Wesson model is not certified for sale in CA, it would have to be a custom affair. There is a shorter barrel version of the Glock 10mm that might work for CC.

-Tutt

Rifleman · Post by **Rifleman** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 2:34 am

COSteve wrote:
BobM wrote:For a long time I've read that a service grade revolver is generally more accurate than a service grade auto. Do you find the Glock to be accurate enough for your needs?
The last time I was hunting/camping I carried a 5" 1911 as it was, from what I owned at the time, the best combo of portability, accuracy, and power.
Let me answer your question this way. I use my G20/21L in 10mm configuration to shoot at our steel plates at 200yds . . . . . . . . unsupported, two handed, Weaver stance.

How big are the plates? How often do you hit?

Here is my 357 686 8" barrel at 100 yards at 8x12" steel. 4 hits of 6 shots.

What is the smallest group it has shot?
1.75" 3 shot group at 100 yards off of a sand bag,

Those two vids were taken on the 24th. the only other group I have shot with it while on sand bags was 2.75" at 150 yards.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 4:39 pm

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Rifleman336 · Post by **Rifleman336** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 7:51 pm

[quote="COSteve"]
[quote="Rifleman336"]Yes the 10mm is a OK, pistol round, but you can't have a companion calibered longgun, save for the CCU unit. Which is clumsy at best. I'm sticking with my Ruger GP-100, six shots and all.Rifleman 336[/quote]

That's true but with 17+1 rds of 10mm on board, I don't really need to share ammo with my rifle. Heck, my G20L holds 1½ times the ammo my Rossi carbine does!! Kidding aside, a single spare mag gives me 35rds of 10mm and a pouch full of additional 357Mag ammo for my carbine would be plenty for a day in the field in any situation save WWIII.[/quote]

Your starting to come across like a door to door Vacume cleaner salesman, that's hell bent on selling me something I don't need or want. Unless this is some kind of round-a-scheme to buy all the .357's turned in, in exchange for a 10mm tupperware!!

Glad your happy with your choice WWIII not withstanding, but until the availability of 10mm ammo and longuns chambered for same improves, I'm happy with what I got come hell or Nancy Pelosi!!!

Rifleman 336

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:03 pm

Rifleman336 wrote: Your starting to come across like a door to door Vacume cleaner salesman, that's hell bent on selling me something I don't need or want. Unless this is some kind of round-a-scheme to buy all the .357's turned in, in exchange for a 10mm tupperware!!

Rifleman 336

plus 1

LK

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sun Dec 27, 2009 8:13 pm

COSteve wrote:Let me answer your question this way. I use my G20/21L in 10mm configuration to shoot at our steel plates at 200yds . . . . . . . . unsupported, two handed, Weaver stance.

Guys do that all day long with revolvers offhand, one-handed in a Camp Perry stance.

Do a little research on Camp Perry and the "required" one-hand, off hand, handgun shooting, requirements.

That said, I can see how your Glock 10mm makes a fine field gun. The only down side I see to it is the scarcity of ammo types that can be fed through your semi-automatic versus a revolver.

Good post Steve. Keep em comming.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:20 am

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Rifleman · Post by **Rifleman** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:31 am

COSteve wrote:You might try leaning into the pistol a bit and flexing your knees as you're shooting pretty off balance in that video.

I actually weigh only 139 pounds, If I lean forward I'd fall over.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:35 am

Thank you for the comparisons, Steve.

You show an interesting perspective to the somewhat lesser known 10mm round.

A while back, I looked into the .460 Rowland (more or less a hot loaded .45 ACP using a stouter slide spring and drop-in barrel) as a fast loading, higher capacity alternative to my .44 Mag camp gun, with similarly matching results. The drawbacks with that combination were:
1) It is difficult to switch between the .45 and the .460 - installation is very demanding with the heavy spring
2) It would be therefore most advisable to have a separate 1911 type firearm, sighted in, for the other caliber
3) The higher pressures and heavy spring mean more wear and tear on a gun meant for the .45
Your 10mm, on the other hand, has a handgun designed around it. An interesting proposition.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 5:18 am

John, I also considered the 460 Rowland as I was looking at the time for the most power I could get in a 1911 platform. I read some questionable things about long term reliability with the 460 but the other factor was the long ported barrel (6 inches or slightly more) that is a necessity for the 460. Makes it kind of big.

In the end, the 10mm seemed the best choice. Its a perky cartridge and works fine in the 1911 once you put in the 22 lb recoil spring.

-Tutt

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 12:52 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:...In the end, the 10mm seemed the best choice. Its a perky cartridge and works fine in the 1911 once you put in the 22 lb recoil spring.

-Tutt

How is it to field strip and clean, vs. the Glock? With the Rowland, you may know, you need a block of wood and a lot of caution and patience for this procedure.

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 1:57 pm

Steve,
Your review was well done, except for not including your sensitivity to recoil in the original post.

Every person would probably make a choice of handguns based on their needs and experiences, and the results would vary accordingly.
For example, I have a stong aversion to auto pistols in general and Glocks in particular. I would be inclined to enhance the revolver platform by selecting an 8-shot .357 Mag., or more likely a good old 6-shot .44 Mag.

I had a revelation earlier this year when I broke my left arm. I can't begin to operate any kind of an autoloader with one hand! Whoda thunk... I didn't have a good stock of centerfire ammo handy so I borrowed a .22 double action revolver from a friend and got in a good deal of shooting while I was healing up. I got pretty handy operating the revolver after a couple of tries. I usually shoot single action revolvers but even these were significantly awkward to load and unload with one hand.
This one incident did nothing to change my mind about handguns as I have been a revolver fan for a long time.

I do have one question that you might be able to answer. Did you factor in the terminal performance of the available bullets for the .357 and 10mm? I have little experience with the 10mm beyond target shooting so any info would be interesting.

Jack

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 2:12 pm

John, I can't say tear down of my 1911 Kimber in 10mm is that different than a good ol' 45 ACP. I do dismantle and assemble it with my bare hands and I have not used any special procedures. I've watched Mic McPherson also break it down bare handed and assemble it too although he is much more skilled at it. I don't know how it compares to a Glock but I have heard they are also easy to field strip.

-Tutt

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:03 pm

CowboyTutt wrote:John, I can't say tear down of my 1911 Kimber in 10mm is that different than a good ol' 45 ACP...-Tutt

That says it all. Thanks!

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:57 pm

jhrosier wrote:Steve,

I had a revelation earlier this year when I broke my left arm. I can't begin to operate any kind of an autoloader with one hand! Whoda thunk... .

Jack

There are "tricks" to operating an autoloading pistol one-handed that every owner should learn.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 7:42 pm

COSteve wrote:On a separate line, the 10mm can shine in a pistol but when it comes to a longer barrel, the 357Mags's larger powder supply simply overwhelms the smaller cased 10mm. There is no way I could hope to duplicate the performance of either my 38spl+P or 357Mag loads through my leverguns with anything I could make up in a 10mm round.

Which is the #1 reason I prefer the .357 to the 10mm... even though from a ballistic/gp standpoint I think the 10mm is about the perfect pistol caliber - in the same way the 16 is about the perfect Shotgun guage.

#1 - Bullet length/dia/mass ratios are about ideal
#2 - it still begins in a "4" (.40)
#3 - You CAN stuff more into a gun than with the .45

That said, I'm still hopeful that Coonan will arise from the ashes and bring back the Cadet...

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Dec 28, 2009 8:01 pm

I've read probably 85% of the posts on this thread and haven't read this so I'll say it.

Seems to me the 10mm was really popular for sometime and was on the way up as to top pick in calibers; however, it seems that the .40 S&W came along an let the air out of the 10mm sails.

Also, for me, ammo availability comes into play. Should you be away from home base and need ammo for whatever reason, it is more likely you'd find .357 Magnum or .44 Magnum before finding 10mm.

Still a good post Steve. Lots of thoughts and ideas put forth because of it. Thanks.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 1:48 am

Ed, don't worry about your earlier posts. Rifleman apparently seems to have P.O.d more than one person on this forum judging from the PM's I received, so while he may be upset off, he brought it on himself. No one else here makes his shooting ability a fundamental part of his forum identity, particularly without telling his real name. If he chooses to do so, he's asking for trouble as there are many people who shoot as well as he does. In the words of Scott T. as posted to me in a personal email, "what one man can do, another can do." The point being is that all it takes is practice, practice, practice.

Regarding the 10mm, it was always a great cartridge as it was "created" by none other than Col. Jeff Cooper himself who recognized the limitations of the 45 ACP. Its just that most L.E. officers could not handle the recoil of the 10mm well, which led to the creation of the 40 S&W.

I don't support that conclusion, but it was not up to me.

-Tutt

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:05 am

Ed, regarding ammo availability, I was sort of drawn to the 10mm just because it was not so popular anymore but also because the surprisingly good ballistics of full strength 10mm ammo did not support NOT using it currently, at least as a "camp gun". I also make it a point to travel with enough ammo for the occasion and I would be irresponsible if I didn't. Please don't be offended, but if your going to travel with a handgun being your source of personal defense, you would also travel with enough ammo to feed it.

Hope your staying warm up there in NorEast CA.

Hoping we can meet up this summer.

Sincerely,

-Tutt

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Dec 29, 2009 2:27 am

Well Andy, I have to say yours is the only 10mm I have shot but shooting at 200 yd targets was surprisingly viable with yours. Well, until the range officer put a halt to that.