Split 30-30 cases revisited

[J Miller]

Several years ago, November of 05, at the First Annual Leverguns, Sixguns get together I fired the first rounds from my very little used 1950 Win 94. Some of the ammo was almost 20 year old hand loads. They fired just fine, but I had several case neck splits from that box. I didn't give it much of a thought as they were very old cases.

April of 07 JD45 and myself met up at the outdoor range 45 miles from me and I shot the Winchester again. This time I got 10 for 10 split cases from the box of W-W hand loads,

Split Win cases 2.JPG

and 2 out of 7 for R-P factory loads that split.

Splin RP cases 2.JPG

This concerned me no end, as this is the nicest pre-64 I've ever owned.

Earlier this year, in June at the IN Leverguns meet, I fired some Winchester factory ammo from it to see what would happen, and had no splits. I wasn't able to shoot much that weekend, so I didn't get to shoot more of the R-P factory ammo or any of my hand loads.

Fast forward to an hour ago; I was priming some 30-30 case and had a brainstorm. I'd been wanting to somehow measure the cases fired from that rifle, but have nothing to do it with. However it occurred to me that if I put the cases in my case trimmer loosely and rotated them, I could see if there was anything odd about the fired cases. So I did this. All the fired cases look normal. No bulges, no out of round areas, not even with the split ones.

That does not mean the chamber is perfect, but by comparing the cases fired in my 94 to the cases fired in ( oh nuts I forgot your name ) Win 94, ( the one that hit everywhere but where it was aimed) I can't see enough difference to cause the splits.

So I'm pretty sure the chamber is OK, but I'm still wondering why so many cases would split from this 94. I suppose they could just be old and getting brittle and the chamber neck could be on the max side of tolerances. That would do it I guess.

Boy I need to go shooting again.

Joe

[TedH]

How much larger are the necks of the fired cases than the neck of a loaded round?

[O.S.O.K.]

I would suggest just neck sizing the cases for this rifle - keeping the ammo specific to it. That may solve the problem. Just size the necks down to just above the case shoulder. You should be able to do this by adjusting the die up in the press 1/2 a turn or so.

[J Miller]

Ted, duh ..... I didn't even think of that. I'll go grab 'em and measure them. Be right back.

O.S.O.K., That's not really an option. I'm sorta picky, all my ammo has to fit in all my guns of that caliber. I would be really ticked off if I got to the range with the wrong ammo. Hasn't happened yet, but it would I'm sure.

Joe

[Ben_Rumson]

Some of the ammo was almost 20 year old hand loads. They fired just fine, but I had several case neck splits from that box. I didn't give it much of a thought as they were very old cases.

Looks pretty simple to me...The case necks have been holding those bullets well over 20 some odd years...I suspect cases were probably over worked to start with or perhaps brittle from the factory... then after all the time went by they split upon expansion in what is a chamber that is probably within specs..
Military ammo meant for long term storage have the necks of the cases annealed just to avoid having the necks split just sitting in storage...

[J Miller]

How much larger are the necks of the fired cases than the neck of a loaded round?

OK, here is what I found out, best as I can measure things.

I did all the measurements half way between the case mouth and shoulder.

Winchester factory ammo: case neck diameter .330" to .331" Loaded
Winchester factory ammo: case neck diameter .332" to .333" Fired

Remington factory ammo: case neck diameter .3285" Loaded
Remington factory ammo: case neck diameter .329" to .3325" Fired

It does appear there is some ot of round in this chamber neck area.

Joe

[J Miller]

Some of the ammo was almost 20 year old hand loads. They fired just fine, but I had several case neck splits from that box. I didn't give it much of a thought as they were very old cases.

Looks pretty simple to me...The case necks have been holding those bullets well over 20 some odd years...I suspect cases were probably over worked to start with or perhaps brittle from the factory... then after all the time went by they split upon expansion in what is a chamber that is probably within specs..
Military ammo meant for long term storage have the necks of the cases annealed just to avoid having the necks split just sitting in storage...

Ben,
You are probably quite correct in that regarding my hand loads. However that doesn't explain the failures on the fresh factory ammo.

Joe

[Cast Bullet Hunter]

Several years ago, November of 05, at the First Annual Leverguns, Sixguns get together I fired the first rounds from my very little used 1950 Win 94. Some of the ammo was almost 20 year old hand loads. They fired just fine, but I had several case neck splits from that box. I didn't give it much of a thought as they were very old cases.

April of 07 JD45 and myself met up at the outdoor range 45 miles from me and I shot the Winchester again. This time I got 10 for 10 split cases from the box of W-W hand loads,

Split Win cases 2.JPG

and 2 out of 7 for R-P factory loads that split.

Splin RP cases 2.JPG

This concerned me no end, as this is the nicest pre-64 I've ever owned.

Earlier this year, in June at the IN Leverguns meet, I fired some Winchester factory ammo from it to see what would happen, and had no splits. I wasn't able to shoot much that weekend, so I didn't get to shoot more of the R-P factory ammo or any of my hand loads.

Fast forward to an hour ago; I was priming some 30-30 case and had a brainstorm. I'd been wanting to somehow measure the cases fired from that rifle, but have nothing to do it with. However it occurred to me that if I put the cases in my case trimmer loosely and rotated them, I could see if there was anything odd about the fired cases. So I did this. All the fired cases look normal. No bulges, no out of round areas, not even with the split ones.

That does not mean the chamber is perfect, but by comparing the cases fired in my 94 to the cases fired in ( oh nuts I forgot your name ) Win 94, ( the one that hit everywhere but where it was aimed) I can't see enough difference to cause the splits.

So I'm pretty sure the chamber is OK, but I'm still wondering why so many cases would split from this 94. I suppose they could just be old and getting brittle and the chamber neck could be on the max side of tolerances. That would do it I guess.

Boy I need to go shooting again.

Joe

Joe, go to this: http://www.leverguns.com/dimensions/images/3030wcf.jpg for cartridge and chamber dimensions for the .30-30. If your cases measure larger than .3357" at the base of the neck then the issue could be the chamber. If smaller than that the preblem lies with the brass, Just that simple, no guessing.

It isn't uncommon to have new factory ammunition split on the first firing. The cases you describe as "Old Handloads", do you have any information on these, loader, how many times loaded, how were they cleaned? The damage to them looks like a case of Nitrogen embrittlement as a result of the cases being polished in the past using Brasso or any other polish containing ammonia.

[TedH]

It does not appear from your measurements that there is a problem with your chamber. I've had several new Winchester cases split like that on the first firing. Not just the 30-30 either, lost more than one 218 Bee case like that too.

[J Miller]

Joe, go to this: http://www.leverguns.com/dimensions/images/3030wcf.jpg for cartridge and chamber dimensions for the .30-30. If your cases measure larger than .3357" at the base of the neck then the issue could be the chamber. If smaller than that the preblem lies with the brass, Just that simple, no guessing.

It isn't uncommon to have new factory ammunition split on the first firing. The cases you describe as "Old Handloads", do you have any information on these, loader, how many times loaded, how were they cleaned? The damage to them looks like a case of Nitrogen embrittlement as a result of the cases being polished in the past using Brasso or any other polish containing ammonia.

CBH,

I did just that. The drawing shows the case neck diameter to be .335" at the junction of the shoulder to .333" at the case mouth. Best I remember without going back over there. None of my fired cases came near the .335" measurement.

The ammo that split was reloaded 12-87, forth loading. They were loaded in an RCBS press using RCBS dies. There is a very good chance there were cleaned with Brasso at least once. I did use that on some of my brass before I learned not to.
The case necks do show signs of being cleaned with steel wool. I did that a lot before getting my tumbler.
There are 8 rounds left in that box of hand loads. None of the unfired rounds show any signs of cracks or fatigue in the neck. I intend to shoot them out of my 1980 Trapper and see if any of them split.
I know the chamber in the Trapper is good.

I've had factory ammo split before, but never this many in the same place, and never in the same exact place that a bunch of hand loads have split. To many coincidences.

Joe

[J Miller]

It does not appear from your measurements that there is a problem with your chamber. I've had several new Winchester cases split like that on the first firing. Not just the 30-30 either, lost more than one 218 Bee case like that too.

Ted,
I've lost factory loaded brass to splits before too. Just not like this.
I'm beginning to believe it's just crappy new brass and week old brass added to a slightly out of round chamber neck.

Joe

[Ben_Rumson]

Brass can be harder from one side to the other... expand differently... It can be thicker on one side from the other... Of course I know you know all of this Joe.. But a chamber cast will take all the guess work out of it, allowing you to directly measure the cast with mikes...

[J Miller]

Brass can be harder from one side to the other... expand differently... It can be thicker on one side from the other... Of course I know you know all of this Joe.. But a chamber cast will take all the guess work out of it, allowing you to directly measure the cast with mikes...

That is something I want to do. Perhaps I should buy some cerosafe from Brownells.

Joe

[fordwannabe]

Joe using the cerosafe is quick, easy and not very expensive. I cast a chamber the other night on a barrel with an unknown chambering, 30 minutes later.. .308. I have had the same batch of cerosafe for several years ...good stuff.But you prolly already know all that, but others reading this might not. Tom

[Kansas Ed]

Just an idea to maybe eliminate the chamber easily. Mark the rim of each cartridge with a felt tip marker, and while at the range, single load them with the mark straight up in the chamber. If the splits are always oriented the same relative to the mark then you may want to look at the chamber a little more. If they are oriented with no common relationship to the mark then look at the brass.

Ed

[J Miller]

Tom,

Yeah I've been present when one of my cylinders were done. The gunsmith said he'd been using the same batch forever.
I figure if I can get some I'll do a chamber cast and up into the barrel so I can find out what the grove diameter is.

Ed,
Someone else suggested that and I've yet to get to do it. But I will.

Joe

[mescalero1]

Joe,
The brass casting houses cast (melt) brass for a lot of different applications, brass for cases is different from brass cast for decorative purposes.
Think of the people who work at foundries, bosses trying to make a name for themselves, all the variables of homo-sapien interaction in the workplace, you get the drift.
Cast the chamber, do the measurements, if the chamber is good, you will have to live with periodic batches of bad brass.

[J Miller]

Joe,
The brass casting houses cast (melt) brass for a lot of different applications, brass for cases is different from brass cast for decorative purposes.
Think of the people who work at foundries, bosses trying to make a name for themselves, all the variables of homo-sapien interaction in the workplace, you get the drift.
Cast the chamber, do the measurements, if the chamber is good, you will have to live with periodic batches of bad brass.

Yep, you are right. Lots of variations in things now a days. Used to be you could count on consistency in cartridge brass, but anymore it's hit or miss.
The one thing I noticed when I measured the necks of the unfired ammo is that the Remington brass was thinner than the Win brass. This falls in line with what I've found before.
And if the chamber neck in that 94 is a bit larger and out of round than the norm, the combination would exacerbate the problem.

Yep, I'll either have to live with it, or get another barrel. I'm thinking of a 26" full octagon with full length magazine ... nah too much trouble.

Joe

[Chuck 100 yd]

Joe, Cerrosafe GOOD..... Guessing BAD !!

I have been using the same little ingot for 20 years. Just don`t overheat it. I melt in a little ladle using a propane torch. It only takes a few seconds to melt.

It does come with instructions by the way.

[junkbug]

Joe;

Have you considered your storage environment? I believe the ammo stored too closely to ammonia containing gun cleaners can cause brass to deteriorate.

That is not saying thats what I believe you are doing. However, that is just a simple example of how environmental factors in ammo storage can cause malfunctions in a fine rifle with no real mechanical defects.


Sean

[J Miller]

Joe;

Have you considered your storage environment? I believe the ammo stored too closely to ammonia containing gun cleaners can cause brass to deteriorate.

That is not saying thats what I believe you are doing. However, that is just a simple example of how environmental factors in ammo storage can cause malfunctions in a fine rifle with no real mechanical defects.


Sean

Sean,
That is a good point. There was a time say 12 years ago and back that my ammo was stored in the same cabinet as my solvent and oils. I don't know that any of it had ammonia in it, but it's always possible.
Since then it's all be separated.
That could explain some of the older ammo, but not the fresh factory ammo.

Joe