45-70 Penetration and Smack

[86er]

I have been working with Grizzly Cartridge and indirectly with Belt Mountain Punch Bullets to come up with the optimal .458 bullet for unfailing penetration on the biggest game. The 405 Punch has proven to be a great penetrator and had just enough penetration to make it to the elephant's brain on a frontal shot. It penetrated quite a bit on buffalo too with the bullet exiting after 3 1/2 feet of penetration. The recovered 405's were a little bit bent, but not bad. Kelye sent me some 430 grain Punch bullets to try. I loaded them to near 1850 fps in the 45-70. We had two "tests" on game, a watusi and a small bison. The 430 gr'ers were fired from a 18.5" ported Guide Gun. The Bison took a hit in the brachial plexis with the bullet exiting after nearly 4 feet of penetration. The watusi was hit similarly and the bullet exited the concave of the hip socket and stuck into an 8" diameter tree. There was a noticable "shock wave" traveling along the animal that was visible on the skin surface. The bullet was dug out of the tree and had gone around 5" into it. Then Ricky and I shot a 5/8" steel plate at 50 yards. The 405 Punch bullets at 2000 fps leave a huge dent but the 430 grain Punch at 1850 fps went THROUGH it! The 430 has more penetration and more smack than any other .458 bullet I have experienced at velocities at or below 2000 fps. The paper ballistics clearly do not tell the whole story. The 405 Punch at 2000 fps shows ME of 3596, Momemtum of 115 and KO of 52. The 430 gr yields 3356 ME, Momentum 115 and KO 52. In spite of less ME and the same #'s for Mm and KO the 430 gr has a significant advantage!

In order to get that "magical" .300 sectional density that is equated with optimal penetration for caliber diameter, Kelye is making some 440 grainers and Grizzly Cartridge says they will safely run at 1900 fps. This is the very best penetration from the 45-70 and moreso with a 45-90 or 450 NE!


The recovered 430 that went through a watusi and 1/2 way through a tree -


The 5/8" steel plate with holes through it!

[awp101]

That's gonna leave a mark...

[mikld]

What were the terminal effects on the watusi and the bison? DRT?

[Tycer]

Are you using Reloader 7?

That's pretty impressive. What's the hardness of the brass?

[86er]

The animals were DRT. I don't know the hardness of brass. I used H322 but the factory loads will be with Grizzly's proprietary powders. I tried RL7 but got less velocity for more powder.

[rjohns94]

excellent report Joe, those seem to have great promise for dangerous game CNS shots.

[handirifle]

Do I understand correctly, these are brass bullets? Ie LEAD FREE? What is their cost?

[JohndeFresno]

Thanks, 86er.

Several readers will no doubt never have a chance to harvest African game, but the information is nevertheless fascinating. Your trademark thoroughness with photos always provides very enjoyable reading.

[CowboyTutt]

Holy Flippin Cow!!!!! I may have to get that 45-70 now. -Tutt

[44magHunter]

That just might kill a Kudu.

[crs]

Joe,
You perforated our gong plate!

Oh well, when I miss it, I can claim to have shot through one of those big holes.

[RKrodle]

Joe,
You perforated our gong plate!

Oh well, when I miss it, I can claim to have shot through one of those big holes.

That's what I'm telling people . That gong is tough. I shot it with a couple of different high powered rifle's and left some dents but this was the first to go all the way.

[Ysabel Kid]

That's gonna leave a mark...

On both ends!

[86er]

The bullets are brass with a hardened lead core. This keeps them short enough to get good velocity. Loaded ammo from Grizzly is about $100 a box but they are offering Same Point of Impact practice ammo in cast bullets for a very reasonable price, and combo packs: 10 practice 10 Punch per box and 20 practice, 10 expanding bullets (same point of impact Northfork) and 10 Punch. The bullets individually are not available in 430 or 440 gr weight yet but the 405's have been $1.50 a piece for a large order.

[madman4570]

Joe, Your work and reporting on this is of great significance.
Very interesting on the 430 grainers.Cant wait till you test the 440 grainers.I just have this thing for the 45-70 and those big punch bullets.
I would love to use this exact cartridge/bullet(430 or 440) on one of your buff hunts in the future!
Please keep up this great feedback to us! Thanks Sir!

[Buck Elliott]

The animals were DRT. I don't know the hardness of brass. I used H322 but the factory loads will be with Grizzly's proprietary powders. I tried RL7 but got less velocity for more powder.

try my favorite -- H-335, and plenty of it.

[TedH]

Pretty impressive performance out of the ol' 45/70.

[madman4570]

Joe,
Based on your expert opinion, would you think that 430gr or the 440gr@1900fps punch bullets when they come out would be a true elephant stopper in areas where the 45-70 would be legal?

It just amazes me the 45-70 has this potential with that type bullet selection.Those previous figures you show are impressive indeed!

[86er]

The 45-70, however loaded, is NOT - I repeat - NOT a stopping gun for anything. It will kill a big animal, even an elephant with the right bullet in the right place, and do it every time. But it is for the hunter, client, shooter - NOT the PH. The 405 Punch killed that elephant with the bullet going 2000 fps, on a frontal brain shot. I will bet good money the 430's and 440's penetrate further on the same shot even at 150 fps less MV.

[madman4570]

Got ya! I shouldnt have used the word "stopper" I meant for the hunter being a reasonable round with those new loads for the hunter to try and go after an elephant.Not meaning the gun for the PH to stop one if needed.Sorry for that poor choice of wording.

[Buck Elliott]

Well, I ain't ever goin' to Africa, or much of anyplace else "exotic," so my "stopping rifle" requirements apply only to the big bears, cougars, moose, elk, maybe an occasional bison, and a smattering of lesser critters. (Did I forget to mention meddlin' off-road 4-wheelers and souped-up Dodge Rams...?) I believe I can rely on my trusty .45-70 to get the job done, without breakin' either the bank or my bony shoulder...

[madman4570]

Guys,
Wouldnt it be cool if say we got a group of say 16 or the max they can take.(all levergunners)to make the jorney to Africa
Buck,never say never! the deal could be too good to pass up! Image a bunch of us guys sitting round the camp fire over there.

Once in a lifetime deal/once in a lifetime hunt! memories forever.

[piller]

I have a .45-70 Guide Gun, and the selection from Grizzly sounds about right for what I have heard of Africa. I would like to try it and see how I do. This year isn't doable. 2011 is my target year. I am saving for it. Madman, how many of us can save up and be together as a group of levergunners then? Joe, is it possible?

[madman4570]

ya, 2011 would be a cool year for a "big bunch of levergunners" to go!
Joe, can give you the exact numbers of "max people" they can accommodate.whether its only 12 or even more ???

Also keep this in mind,If somehow the numbers do not add up to a big group making it to Africa in 2011 due to economic reasons etc.there is always his Texas adventure.I just dont know the max number of people they can take in Texas?Why I say this is the deals he gets for hunting his big mean dangerous Cape Buff Hybrids is FANTASTIC!(though his Africa hunts are FANTASTIC as well)
Where in this world can you hunt one of them big critters that cheap.(price a Cape Buff hunt over there?)I also would not be opposed to sit around the old campfire in sweet Texas with a big friendly group of levergunners there either.Africa has the advantage via the trip location experience granted ,but those BIG HORNED BUFFS in Texas has the advantage maybe in pucker factor (sweet Texas?)

Somthing we will have to look into? I just think either way would be cool! Heck,Really need to experience both ways!

[fordwannabe]

I bet those bullets would work like a champ on those big, mean, snortin, dangerous 130lbs whitetail does we have here in PA too. Yeah I'm a smart aleck, my Dad told me "find something your good at and stick with it", this is all I got. Tom

[madman4570]

How about those 600-700lbs+ bears here in Pa???
I have em in the driveway fighting over bird seed!

[tman]

How about those 600-700lbs+ bears here in Pa???
I have em in the driveway fighting over bird seed!

anything bigger than a .357 180grain hardcast out or a 4" barrelled revolver is OVERKILL FOR A PA. BLACKBEAR. yea, my girlfriend can crush one with her 06 .220grain corelocks, but, wheres the challenge?

[madman4570]

Dude, I hear what your saying maybe I just like a little overkill? I guess!

But everytime I pick up my 6"S&W 629 .44mag I think of my friend who sold me it because he was so darn upset that even talking about it 6months after his hunt he still was getting all anxious etc.

Here is what went down! He was in Manitoba black bear hunting in a tree stand and a big blackie the second day came in and he shot it,he said it hit so he thinks at or just behind the front shoulder.He had a ultradot red dot on it,anyway he said that blasted bear immediately charged his tree snapping and climbing up towards him.He says he dont remember much except shooting 5 more off ASAP.The bear was down the tree took off and ran into the big thick stuff.He never got that bear.His face was bad or whatever just talking about it.He did say up there in Manitoba the guide did say these bears are not used to any humans where they were hunting and really many have no real fear of people? He said that gun makes him sick just looking at it.Told me if I dont buy it he is trading it in the next week.I said he is nuts.He said for the gun/ultradot/3 holsters/5 boxes of shells like new shape if I remeber right it was $450?? Thats what they offered and he wouldnt accept more from me.I said just put it away and if you still feel like that next year ok I will take it.He said its now or never,dont want it in the house!
I said why didnt you use some big 325 hard cast grainers like from Buffalo Bore?? He said he wanted somthing fast???
Anyway I took the gun home went out back and it was dead on target! Somthing weird went down because this guy dont lie about stuff.I felt bad stealing that gun from him but better his friend than the guys down the road I guess! He bought a TC contender in .35 Whelen about 3 weeks later! See ya!
P.S. Personally give me the 6 shot .44mag w/325 grainers over that single shot TC any day of the week.Wonder how quick he would of loaded with a single with that bear a coming like right now????Probably he would have dropped the gun????

[fordwannabe]

Hey Madman, if it's a big problem for ya, I'll be happy to help you out with one of those 600 pounders around Thanksgiving. You know it's all about helping you out you know. Tom

[madman4570]

Tom,
hey pal, never kmow might take you up on that! Only deal this is at my summer place that is on the Pa/Ny border(in Ny)I think this year for the Big game license and bear tag(non-resident)ya,me too and on my own place is around $225 I just look at it as a wildlife protection type contribution at least in my mind or (otherwise I start getting really kind of mad about it) See ya!