Calling all Win. 94 shooters- Update

[1886]

I picked up a B.B .375 recently and have been spending some range time with it. First this rifle is very well done with excellent, deep blue and nice wood. The bore is smooth and uniform. The trigger is very useable. I have been playing with jacketed loads only so far. Healthy doses of RL-7, W/W .38-55 brass, Hornady 220grFP, and CCI-300 primers. Very good neck tension and the Lee FCD top things off. The loads are very uniform, the chrony proves that. I am confident in my bag technique. Everything sounds good right? Well I am getting big time verticle stringing, I am talking 3" strings at 25yrds. I will get two or three touching and two or three 3" high in a verticle pattern.I know leverguns can be tough at times on the bag. Two piece stock design and barrel time contribute to verticle strings but I have never experienced anything like this. The chrony shows nothing but consistency. The vast majority of my range time with leverguns has been behind new 86s and Marlins. My past experience I could always explain verticle stringing to velocity spreads. My time with 94s is very limited. Are these rifles more finicky or quirky? I took the rifle apart and can find no obvious stress points that would cause this level of stringing. Anybody care to share their 94 experiences with me? Thanks. 1886.

[J Miller]

1886,

I've done that with my 94s also. Mostly I found it to be the way I was benching the rifle. If I rest the rifle on the sand bag each shot moves the rifle. So the rest changes.

I finally started resting my forearm on the bag and holding the rifle as if I was shooting off hand.

That seems to help.

I have no experience with the BB 94s or 375 caliber, only 30-30s, so there might be some difference in barrel vibrations as the barrel heats up. I'm not really sure.

Joe

[1886]

I am trying to simulate field/hunting conditions with respect to number of shots fired and how quickly those shots are fired. For example it probably is not practicle/realistic to shoot more than 3 shot groups and the shots should be shot in rapid succession. Three shots at a fleeing animal are about all one is likely to get and that is probably pushing it. I have been shooting 5 shot groups but I have always done this. There is no pattern to the flyers. I have talked to Mic about this and he tells me 94s can be quirky. Not to offend anyones gun. I do not want to put a thru bolt to tighten up the receiver /stock relationship. I do not want to bed the forearm to dampen vibrations. I want to keep the gun original. If I can not get to the bottom of this problem without altering the gun it may be that this rifle will just be a safe queen and nothing more. 1886.

[RSY]

What are you hunting that would require 3 pills successfully delivered from a .375 BB94?

[Sixgun]

Mr. 1886,
loosen all screws touching the barrel, whether they are from the mag tube, barrel bands, or forend cap. Some leverguns are notorious for stringing, especially as they heat up from repeated firing. The tension on different areas of the barrel screw things up. This is why long barreled rifles are usually more accurate than saddle ring carbines.

I have experimented by taking off all the wood and the mag tube and shot leverguns with just a barrel, action and buttstock. You learn a lot.

This is what I do to all of my shooting leverguns: I take out each screw (any screws that touch the barrel or in any way, you know what I mean) and degrease it and the hole in which they came from. I then add just a tiny touch of loc-tight and tighten the screws down.----Then I back out each screw 1 turn or until I think the tension is off.

[JDL]

Adjust the barrel bands and don't hold the forend too tight, just a slight snug hold. I also hold the rifle in a shooting position by supporting my hand on the rest. -JDL

[1886]

Sixgun, After this mornings range session I decided to remove the mag. tube, forearm assembly and taking it back to the range. There has to be some vibration inducing, accuracy ruining gremlin somewhere. Hopefully the rifle settles down and starts shooting without the mag. tube forearm assembly in place. This will give us some idea what is going on. 1886

[Marlin .35]

As I said in a recent post, I have been shooting leverguns for over 40 years, and the best way to bench them is to rest the receiver of the rifle right snug in the range bag. This will put your hand in a position that is jammed in against the range bag, and you are only able to shoot one shot because you have no room to move your hand to activate the lever. You must move the rifle to use the lever and then put it back in the bag snugly. I know of no other way that will get the best results in shooting a lever action for accuracy. Your shoulder is firmly into the butt, your hand in the lever/trigger, the rifle is bedded by the receiver, nothing else touches. Please let us know how you make out!!!! Art

[Lastmohecken]

I guess I am just the opposite, I always hold the forearm with my hand and rest that on the bags with another bag under the butt stock, but I try to always have my hands on the gun in the exact spots they would be under hunting conditions. I do this regardlesss of what kind of rifle I am shooting, because that is the way I will end up shooting under hunting conditions and that is all that matters to me.

[Old Time Hunter]

Harmonics....the .375BB is very susceptible to them, try changing powder or charge amount. Back your magazine screw off a tad, not necessarily loose, but not tight either. Make sure you are absolutely identical in the way you support or do not support any part of the rifle in front of the receiver. Personally, I only rest the forearm on the range bag without any support or holding with my free hand. Even in the woods, I'll just rest the forestock across my forearm if I do not have a natural rest, I'll just hold the free hand against a tree or something. Shot 10s of thousands of rounds out of my .375 BB, work'n on my second barrel with another new one in the safe. Shot alot of comp with it, once you tune your load, it'll generally be dead nuts. The only strange thing about it is the "harmonics" deal. Also, make sure you clean the barrel well, no copper in it to start other wise you'll start to string as the copper builds length wise on the lands.

[Hobie]

Do you get stringing when shooting from sitting?

[1886]

I have tried this rifle from the bench with the butt end of the forearm resting on the front bag and the butt stock resting on the rear bag in the same place every shot. I have been as consistant and deliberate as possible in every aspect, load developement, bench technique, etc. I am even trying to hold my tongue the same way every time. The verticle stringing occurs off the bags. I have also tried shooting the rifle from the bench sitting with both elbows on the bench. The groups open up to 4" circular patterns. Again shooting has been done at 25yrds only. So far I have only tried RL-7 with different charge weights and Hornady 220grF.P. Rl-7 has always been a top accuracy candidate in straight walled cases. It is possible that she does not like RL-7. I have not tried different primers. As stated the velocity readings are very consistant. I suspect that the mag. plug screw might be the culprit but this rifle seems way too particular. I will adjust the tension of this screw and see what happens. Please keep the experienced comments/thoughts coming in. Thanks for all the help. 1886.

[Pete44ru]

[I have tried this rifle from the bench with the butt end of the forearm resting on the front bag and the butt stock resting on the rear bag in the same place every shot. I have also tried shooting the rifle from the bench sitting with both elbows on the bench.]

IMHO, your first method is contributing to the stringing, due to the forend recoiling away from the front rest because it's resting directly on it - a "no-no" for levergun accuracy.

The "proof" is that stringing disappears, although replaced with large groups, when you shot via your second method and got round groups.

I have gotten consistant levergun accuracy (as others alluded to above), without stringing, from a benchrest by not letting any part of the wood or metal gun parts contact anything except my body parts.

That means holding the forend in your off hand, then resting the back of that hand on the front bag/rest while holding the forend tightly & pulling down and towards your shoulder when sighting & shooting.

The trigger hand should grasp the wrist of the stock tightly, but with the trigger finger very loose & ready to fire, and the entire hand pulling the buttstock straight back into your shoulder via the both the grasping pressure and pressure on the rear of the lever with the edge of that hand's fingers.
Care must be taken, to ensure that the toe of the stock doesn't touch the bench or the rear bag when pulling rearward/firing.

I have gotten very nice 100 & 200 yard groups with a scoped .356 BB94, and 100 yd groups with a peeped .375, using exactly that method.

[1886]

I hear what you all say and I sincerely appreciate the feedback regarding shooting/bench technique. Perhaps I am not being clear. I have shot 10s of thousands of rounds through leverguns and one piece stock design rifles with success. Some more successfully than others but successful non the less. The point I am trying to make is that I have limited time behind a 94 and the results I am getting with this particular rifle is frustrating. There is something different about this rifle or 94s as a breed. The success and consistancy I have had with various Marlins and 86s far exceeds what I am getting with this particular rifle. Maybe it is me. I can not help but feel this rifle is perhaps tempermental. Thanks. 1886.

[Nath]

Sir, my first Trapper shot great but my present one did not shoot so good and after trying for ages I made some mods. I polished the insides of the barrel bands just enough to allow them to move but not rattle and I do not over tighten the srews. The mag tube was solid so I thined the peg that fits into the barrel, not much but just enough that I can feel it move back and forth now-not ridgid. Now it shoots like this off hand @ 100.
[img][img]http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o65/ ... rgs001.jpg[/img]The group on the right is actually 5 shotsof the Speer 110grn load I use . Yes zero was off but not now and ignor the pulled shots.
Nath.

[Ben_Rumson]

You might try resting the rifle over a rolled up sleeping bag..the rifle settles in nicely for support & cushion the rifle under recoil....nylon covers let the rifle recoil backwards smoothly.. The highth of the bag will probably put you in a more upright position... you may need to raise your rear bag..

[Old Time Hunter]

1886,

This was at 100 yards, forestock resting on top of my forearm with my free hand grasping the pole that holds up the roof at the range.



My load was: Hornady 220gr JFP in front of 32.5 grains of H4198 and a standard CCI Large Rifle primer. H4198 has a tendency to push the envelope regarding pressure, so be careful. This load chrono's at 2025 to 2050 fps, but I've found it takes away the verticle stringing in mine. I have used AA1680 that has decreased pressure and increased velocity (34 grains = 2300 fps), but really effected the placement consistancy. The engineer at Accurate is the first that brought up the "harmonics" equation. I have reduced loads of AA1680 down to 32 grains, but still do not get the accuracy of the H4198. Something about the H4198 being quicker out of the hole....kinda like a dragster.

[1886]

I do appreciate everyone's efforts. I am going to play with the mag. tube plug screw tension and see what follows. If this does not help I will try another powder. RL-7 has always been a stallwart in straight wall cases for me but maybe this rifle is not partial to it. Please keep your experiences coming in. I will let you know. Thanks. 1886.

[Bigahh]

This may be a complete long shot, but I have had groups affected by the front swivel stud hooking on the bag during recoil. Just a thought.

[Nath]

My Speer manual rated H322 first for 30/30 but no way could I get it to shoot in mine so I went back to what I like as in slow for caliber-BL C2

[KirkD]

I've observed two causes for vertical stringing:
1. a bent barrel, which leads to vertical vibrations before the bullet leaves the barrel
2. the forearm bouncing on the rest.

[1886]

I read all of your thougths and experiences with great interest and I do appreciate the feedback. I adopted Pete44ru method with this particular rifle. I had not tried this with any other leverguns. I had not needed to as my adopted bench technique always proved to be successful. As stated I have sent many thousands of rounds down range through many a levergun. My success varied from great to acceptable. The vast majority of my levergun experience is with various Marlins, 86s, and 71s. My experience with 94s is very limited however. When you feel yourself to be an accomplished shooter and reloader you tend to look at the gun when problems arrise. I am/ was no different. Well I am happy and a little embarrassed to say the rifle will shoot without verticle stringing. It has been said many times that rifles are individual animals. This 94 proved that out. Old, hard headed dog learns new trick. Thanks again. 1886.

[Pete44ru]

WAGs sometimes work ! I'm glad to hear you're making progress.

[pharmseller]

I read all of your thougths and experiences with great interest and I do appreciate the feedback. I adopted Pete44ru method with this particular rifle. I had not tried this with any other leverguns. I had not needed to as my adopted bench technique always proved to be successful. As stated I have sent many thousands of rounds down range through many a levergun. My success varied from great to acceptable. The vast majority of my levergun experience is with various Marlins, 86s, and 71s. My experience with 94s is very limited however. When you feel yourself to be an accomplished shooter and reloader you tend to look at the gun when problems arrise. I am/ was no different. Well I am happy and a little embarrassed to say the rifle will shoot without verticle stringing. It has been said many times that rifles are individual animals. This 94 proved that out. Old, hard headed dog learns new trick. Thanks again. 1886.

Good for you that you were willing to look at something new. There are none so blind as those who will not see. No need to be embarrassed.

Quinn

[Noah Zark]

I do appreciate everyone's efforts. I am going to play with the mag. tube plug screw tension and see what follows.

Sixgun's suggestion to loosen all the screws and even remove the mag tube and shoot the 375 as a "single shot" is spot on in my 40 years of shooting leverguns.

In the mid/late 80s I picked up a nt very used 375BB from a co-worker who was disgusted with it patterning instead of grouping. Sure enough, the best group I could get out of four five-shot groups was about 10 inches at 100 yds. I didn't bother just loosening the screws, I completely stripped the front end and reshot it as a single shot using more factory ammo with the same lot number stamp on the box flap. The pattern tightened to about 2" at 100 yds off sandbags.

I put everything together and only snugged the band screws, leaving the mag tube cap off, and again fired the rifle. The groups were still 2" to 2.5". The culprit was the mag tube cap screw, and as soon as it contacted the barrel recess with ANY kind of force the groups opened up. I trimmed the nub on the end of the screw so that it BARELY made contact, more or less just entered the recess, loaded up and fired another group, about 2.15". Loaded the mag tube and fired again, group opened to 2.35" It's been there ever since with factory W-W ammo, and about 1/2" tighter with my pet IMR-3031 load.

I've "tuned" some other levers using the same technique and ended up with some amazing shooting rifles. Owners of lever that I tuned changed their minds about selling them, too.

Best of luck, IMO you're on the right track.

Noah

[Griff]

Pete, Sixgun and Noah Zark beat me to it this time around, but my experience is the same. Every levergun I've acquired that had grouping problems, I've removed the barrel bands, forend, mag and fired it as a single shot using a front bag under the receiver. Once I have a load that shoots to my satisfaction under those circumstances I start assembling the forend. I make sure the wood doesn't contact the barrel, and the rings are only in minimal contact. I tighten the screws so that they are not loose, but not overtorqued. The I use blue Loctite on the threads. The screw heads on both barrel bands should be on the left side of the barrel. I've bought two carbines that someone has reversed the bands to where the screw heads were on the right side. Both exhibited poor groups until taken apart and reassembled. I've been told there is no difference in the two bands and they can be mounted with the screw heads on either side. Ok. I'll stick with my method. Vertical stringing is usually caused by excessive pressure on the rear band by over-torquing the screw, this narrows the band, causing an "open" space on the top of the band allowing the barrel to flex in that direction. It may not be visible, nor measurable, but with heat, and quick, successive shots a over-torqued rear band screw will exacerbate the phenomenon. Same with a magazine plug screw that bottoms out in the recess in the bottom of the barrel.

RE-7 is the best powder I've found in my Marlin 375 using Winchester 375 cases, primers and the Hornady 220gr pill.

[Travis Morgan]

I was trying out loads for my 94 last time I went to the range, and wondered what the hell had happened to my rifle! My back was hurting, so I shot from the bench, and all the loads I tested strung in a straight line. I had no idea what was happening, but I know this rifle was a shooter when I gave it to Dad. Glad to hear I was on the right track, thinking the stringing was a bag problem.

I also wondered: Am I the only one who absolutely CAN NOT shoot a handgun from the bench at all?

When I try shooting autos or sixguns from a bench, I actually shoot worse than when I'm standing, in the wind, with a sore back and sore wrists.

[Noah Zark]

I
I also wondered: Am I the only one who absolutely CAN NOT shoot a handgun from the bench at all?

When I try shooting autos or sixguns from a bench, I actually shoot worse than when I'm standing, in the wind, with a sore back and sore wrists.

You ain't the Lone Ranger there, Travis. I can't hit schit with a handgun off of a bag. OTOH, standing onehanded or with a modified Weaver hold I have no problem busting claybirds on edge at 25 yds with a 1911. Did it again yesterday with a new-to-me Colt 1991 Compact, 6/7 shots with the first mag through it, 7/7 with the second mag.

Puts me to mind of Robert Redford as Sundance Kid when Strother Martin asked him to shoot and couldn't hit anything until he fast drew.

Noah

[redeux]

another thought , check the inside of the barrelband and the magtube band for roughnes /deforming ...
polish the bands until they have clearence on the barrel/tube when cold...
check that the band screw is straight and unburred as well...

[RSY]

I'm glad just a change in technique fixed your problem. The BB94 is really almost too light of a platform for the .375 Win. I used to experience a LOT of bounce off the bags with mine.

Then, one day someone suggested I actually hold the fore-end to the point of applying literal downward pressure on the carbine and, VOILA! She shoot real good now, boss!

Good luck.

scott

[Ravenman]

1886,
You load CCI 300 (pistol primer)? How much velocity did you get with your loads? Sometimes uniform loads don't equal with accurate loads.
What about factory ammo?

[1886]

2250 fps. You are correct, uniform loads are not necessarily the most accurate. A uniform load will rarely string vertically 3-4" at 25yrds if the load is at fault. In this instance it was my bag technique not the load that was lacking. I routinely use CCI-300 primers in my levergun loads. They offer plenty of fire but minimal brisance. I ran into some issues with these primers when charge weights approach 60grs plus(45-90). There is an additional safety feature with the 300 primer as it sits deeper in the pocket. Any pistol primer will sit more deeply in the pocket. 1886.