Bye Bye Scope, Hello Factory Sights

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:29 pm

Well, took the 2-7 off the 94AE the other day. Don't know what the heck I was thinkin in the first place. Totally different gun. Like it should be, small, light and handy

Anyway, I've also decided against the Williams sights I was thinkin about for now and am gonna stick with the factory open. Notch rear and standard, no bead front sight. Now to improve them. I'm gonna try a fluorescent orange bead and a narrow vertical line below the rear notch for the rear. Now for what sight paint to use? Testers model paint, finger nail polish or other? Ideas and experiences?

BTW, I thought about trimming a piece of white auto trim/stripping for the vertical line in lieu of paint.

What do you guys do to improve your open sights?

LK

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 5:32 pm

The green firesight thing works for me, my eyes seem to pick up the green.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 6:18 pm

Myself, I don't like those globs of red or green on the front of my rifles. If yer gonna use the OEM open sights, use em. You'll be surprised how well the OEM front sight stands out against the OEM open rear sight. Practice with em. If need be, you can get some white sight paint or model airplane white paint and put a dab on the bead of the front sight for contrast.

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 8:21 pm

The AO ghost ring sights are great on these guns. Can't stand the factory rear sights.

You are right, scopes (other than maybe scout scopes) are silly on a lever gun. Just messes them up royally. If you want a scope, put it on a bolt gun.

Jason_W · Post by **Jason_W** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 9:53 pm

PaulB wrote:
You are right, scopes (other than maybe scout scopes) are silly on a lever gun. Just messes them up royally. If you want a scope, put it on a bolt gun.

Why? A lever action is great for a quick followup shot and a scope puts me on target faster and with less expensive ammo than open sights.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:20 pm

Shove it paulb, you are SILLY. And, LIMITED OF MIND!!!

Can't stand the rear sights? Maybe you just can't shoot.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:28 pm

OS
Don't hold nothing back, tell us how you really feel!

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sun Jun 07, 2009 11:32 pm

Old Savage wrote:Shove it paulb, you are SILLY. And, LIMITED OF MIND!!!

Can't stand the rear sights? Maybe you just can't shoot.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:26 am

Scopes on a traditional lever gun are ugly. They are ungainly and ruin the visual symmetry of the piece. They alter the balance and make the rifle awkward to carry in the field. Scopes are only good for blind old codgers who have coke bottle glasses.
Traditional lever guns beg for iron sights. It's the way they were designed and meant to be. Factory barrel sights, tang or receiver peep sights make the rifle a most appealing and handy tool.
Like PaulB said, put the scopes on bolt guns, they have no place on a lever gun.

LK, I know little about optical fiber sights, but from what I've seen they should help a big bunch.

Joe

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:43 am

Joe - they are other people's guns - so not the province of anyone else. That is the point - obama will likely soon enough tell you what is ugly and how things should be.

Until then - you can't really tell other people how THEIR guns should be.

So there.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:57 am

L_Kilkenny wrote:What do you guys do to improve your open sights?

LK

Sight in, then leave 'em the hell alone.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:07 am

Scopes on all rifles are overused and overrated. I avoid them whenever possible. They've kept a generation of shooters tied to a bench and convinced them that they cannot possibly hit anything without optics.

Part of the problem is the low-quality of the irons available today, if any irons are available at all. My preferred setup for a levergun shooting inside 200 meters is a sourdough type front sight and a safari three leaf rear. The sourdough is far tougher than the bead style and easier to use esp. in rough conditions. A receiver mounted aperture or tang could also be used with it. The patridge style front is also good.

For longer range shooting the military grade tangent and hooded ramp front is a great combination. The only factory guns currently made that have this setup are the CZ 452 plinkers, unfortunately.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:17 am

Telling another fella what he should like is tricky....I prefer to tell you what I like and what works for me and if anyone wants to try it, I'll be glad to help if asked

My favorite plinker is my 39 Mounty and I have a Lyman on it with the apperture taken out as to make a ghost ring. The factory sights on all my 1894s fit me real good, but I think I'll put a nice 1.5-5 VXIII on the CL .218 Bee to take advantage of it's accuracy and longer range.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:20 am

Since i am relatively new to the levergun arena (i started collecting and shooting them when i received my father's 30-30 a bit over a year ago) ----- i can honestly say that i had very rarely fired an open sight rifle in my life excepting an AR-15, and an M-16 in the Army. The AR peep is so good, it doesn't even compare to the stock open sights on my Marlins and Winchesters now. I agree, they look better sans scope, but it is hard to resist throwing a small variable on top of one to see if it does any better for me

It has been rough going for me trying to hold the traditional open sights to "minute of pie plate" accuracy. It is pretty frustrating some days -- its harder to tell if your wobbling or not, while a little wobble is impossible to ignore when looking through a 12x scope.

I am going to try a tang sight on one of my rifles to see how it works out. That or a receiver sight might be what ya need if the factory sights drive you nuts

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:28 am

I'm halfway to 110 and still shoot using open sights and receiver sights. The only change I've made is painting the gold beads white or off-white using appliance touch up paint. My eyes can't deal with the glare from the sun on a shiny gold bead, and turning the gold bead into a white or "ivory" bead with appliance touch-up paint is quick, easy, inexpensive, and best of all, effective. I find that white or ivory (alomond) works much better for me than orange or red.

Just yesterday I had my old factory-sighted Marlin 57M 22 Magnum levergun to the club range. I was just plinking offhand at the 200 yd berm, at a short, fist-sized clump of weeds. In the space of 15 rounds, the weed was gone, and two guys there shooting benchrest rifles were flabbergasted. That Marlin 57M is that good with open sights.

Noah

silverbuzzard · Post by **silverbuzzard** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 11:31 am

Best I have seen for alevergun ,to keep balance etc and reach out to 200 yards is the Burris fastfire

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:03 pm

Old Savage wrote:Joe - they are other people's guns - so not the province of anyone else. That is the point - obama will likely soon enough tell you what is ugly and how things should be.

Until then - you can't really tell other people how THEIR guns should be.

So there.

Fred, I agree. I just had to post something about scopes and lever guns. The debil made me do it

Joe

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:06 pm

I prefer to go to a small gold bead on the front sight. Seems to make me shoot better for a finer sight picture. I also prefer a v notch rear, which means that I usually put a Marbles rear sight on mine If I have a choice and it's not a classic rifle.

Ed

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:11 pm

Cosmoline wrote:Scopes on all rifles are overused and overrated. I avoid them whenever possible. They've kept a generation of shooters tied to a bench and convinced them that they cannot possibly hit anything without optics.

Part of the problem is the low-quality of the irons available today, if any irons are available at all. My preferred setup for a levergun shooting inside 200 meters is a sourdough type front sight and a safari three leaf rear. The sourdough is far tougher than the bead style and easier to use esp. in rough conditions. A receiver mounted aperture or tang could also be used with it. The patridge style front is also good.

For longer range shooting the military grade tangent and hooded ramp front is a great combination. The only factory guns currently made that have this setup are the CZ 452 plinkers, unfortunately.

It's gotten so bad that good rifles no longer come with any irons at all. You have to shell out buckets of cash for a scope set up just to shoot them. Then try, I'm serious, just try to find a gunsmith that is capable of putting irons on a rifle correctly.
Those I've found locally are incompetent idiots.

My preferred sight set up for any rifle is a thin flat topped blade up front with an aperture at the rear. I have that on both my mil-surp bolt guns and two of my Win 94s. The other guns will get this set up when I can either purchase a drill press of my own, or I find a competent person who can D&T them for me.

Joe

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:37 pm

"finger nail polish "

I can't recomend painting your nails before fitting open sights, you'll chip the hell out of them!
Do it after sighting.

Nath.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 12:56 pm

Noah, as the saying goes, "You can't hit what you can't see first." Sir, your eyesight is truly amazing. I don't think I could see a fist-sized lump of clay or dirt or whatever, at 200yds, even now that I've had the lasik surgery. But I was like Mr. MaGoo before so I'm not complainin, believe you me! I have a white dot front sight on one of my rifles & a Williams FP peep at the rear & it's served me well, but I know my limitations, so I won't dare take a shot past 100. jd45

bogus bill · Post by **bogus bill** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:13 pm

I bought a winchester 94 when I was 15 in 1956. I put a williams foolproof and a pad on it then. I sighted it in at the time, and to this day it is accuarte and spot on for me. I havent had to readjust the sights in 53 years.

TX Gun Runner · Post by **TX Gun Runner** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:22 pm

I have matched a 4x scope with this set up at 100 yds . That big words .. My 30-30 Marlin which I sold , I seen no different in group size with the 4x and the tang sight .

PaulB · Post by **PaulB** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:56 pm

Wow, sorry I bothered some people. Opinions not wanted, eh?

Scopes on a traditional lever gun are ugly. They are ungainly and ruin the visual symmetry of the piece. They alter the balance and make the rifle awkward to carry in the field. Scopes are only good for blind old codgers who have coke bottle glasses.

Not to mention, the cheek weld is all wrong, and they add more weight.

Scopes on levers make sense to me mounted temporarily, to work up a load. Or for someone who simply must have a levergun and whose eyesight is pretty bad - but a scout scope does the trick there, without most of the drawbacks of of receiver-mounted scopes. Scopes are definitely a sub-optimal solution on levers.

Someone noted that irons can hardly be found on guns any more - bolt guns. I doubt there was ever a lever gun made without irons. That should tell you something.

Nothing wrong with scopes at all. I really like them. I just use them where they are appropriate, on bolt guns.

What kills me is the manufacturing of single shots, like the Browning 1885, without irons.

If anything looks doofy, it is John Browning's first rifle with a big honking scope up on those gigantic Browning bases, and no irons. In fact, this gun is for me the most frustrating ever. I really want to have one, but not with the very limited sighting options now available to it.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 1:58 pm

J Miller wrote:It's gotten so bad that good rifles no longer come with any irons at all. You have to shell out buckets of cash for a scope set up just to shoot them. Then try, I'm serious, just try to find a gunsmith that is capable of putting irons on a rifle correctly.
Those I've found locally are incompetent idiots.

I hear ya! I put them on myself these days. One Winchester of mine was mauled by a prior gunsmith who seemed unable to center the front ramp screw hole There are two filled holes and the final hole is STILL canted off to one side. I use basic geometry and a hand file to cut the dovetail. Slow process but it works.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:27 pm

Scopes are appropriate on any rifle I want them on. What is appropriate on my rifles is out of the scope of anyone else's opinion. I find them easy enough to carry and an undeniable aid in hitting. Don't like scout scopes, wouldn't have one. They do seem awkward to me but receiver mounted scope don't. Here are two wonderful set ups. Pretty easy to shoot sub inch groups at 100 yds with either one.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 2:37 pm

I must agree, there is nothing like the looks of a lever with a good tang sight.
“BUT” It would be a cold day in #### before I would ever part with my little
side mounted Texas made K3 on my 94 meat getter.
With PA’s stupid antler restrictions, it sure is a big help having that 3X magnification.
O yea, and the open sights are still very usable with the side mount in place.

Cosmoline · Post by **Cosmoline** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:08 pm

To each his own. To me it's like making love through an interpreter.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:34 pm

To me it is exciting just to look through a scope didn't actually do it until I was 44. 17 years the feeling hasn't worn off. Shot many thousands of rounds with open sights prior. I have kept a few with opens. Love this one.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:49 pm

I’m with you Old Savage.
I remember a couple of “very” bad weather days, meat was made with the help
of optical enhancement.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 3:56 pm

Cosmoline wrote:To each his own. To me it's like making love through an interpreter.

Please don't expound on this...it's already too much information....

That story, I'm sure, belongs on sillyvision

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 4:31 pm

Yeah, the did not filter right for me either?

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 9:32 pm

jd45 wrote:Noah, as the saying goes, "You can't hit what you can't see first." Sir, your eyesight is truly amazing. I don't think I could see a fist-sized lump of clay or dirt or whatever, at 200yds, even now that I've had the lasik surgery . . .

I will admit that I was blessed with poor astigmatic near-sightedness that onset in my early 20s that was sucessfully corrected to 20/10 using hard contacts. I wore the same prescription for 21 years, then needed only a minor correction. Two opthamologists attributed the correction and its "staying power" to wearing the hard lenses, which they independently said helped to hold the shape of the cornea and prevent it from changing. That, and the benefit of correction in the same plane as the cornea apparently helped. When I enlisted in the Marines in '72, I qualified Expert with the rifle, and was "Top Shot" in my Recruit Series. Two year later, when I transferred from active USMC to USMCR I was wearing glasses or contacts.

Now that my focal range has deteriorated, I can still see about 20/15 at a distance with correction, but I can't focus close up when wearing contacts and need to 1) use cheaters up close, or b) pop out the contacts and just use the eyes God gave me. I can focus close-up uncorrected in a range from 6" to 18", which makes uncorrected reading easy. My current opthamologist recommends I hold off getting bifocals as long as I can, and put up with things the way they are until close-up focus gets so far away that it's not practical any longer.

As for at the range, I employ some ready "tools" to help gauge size and dimensions at distances -- the white-painted gold front beads on most of my rifles work out to about 2-3 MOA, roughly "fist sized" (OK, maybe grapefruit) at 200 yds. There's a large rock embedded in the 200 yd berm that has an exposed face roughly the dimensions of a 3-lb coffee can in cross-section; the little weed clump I took out was a little less than half that size.

I personally know a couple local "McGoos" that enjoy shooting at 25 yds because that's the best they can do, and my heart has always gone out to them. But it's all they've known, and they are happy to do what they can, good Lord bless them.

Noah

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon Jun 08, 2009 10:00 pm

Love the open sights.Leave the rear notch alone.
On the front use Luminous Glow in the dark lime green glow paint.
On my 18" 12ga.Ithaca deerslayer 37 I painted over the orange raybar sight it is a very thin paint(2 coats) and wont change outline shape of sight I have tried them all(the Cir-Cut Archery Luminous is 10X better)Hit it with the flashlight before going in the woods and once when you have reached your spot.and your glowing baby.
When I am at my spot(which I like to be 1/2 hr before sunrise,I just pull out my little mini mag flashlight set it over my front sight cup my hands over it for about 1 minute and you are good to go!!!
Luminous sight!!! Heck you can shoot in the DARK,well????

maybe if a bear was trying to kill you!

Link is----Archerytogo.com (215-324=1000)tel
For in the woods that is buy far my favorite deer gun(and I got lots of guns)

"I will keep my money guns and freedom,you can keep your CHANGE"

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:14 am

Is it possible to agree with both sides of the scope vs. no scope debate?

. I think I've done it. For years all that I used was open factory sights on all guns. Then I started coyote and fox hunting and scopes started to go on everything. That includes my slug gun and my coon hunting .22. Don't know what took me so long to get a red dot on that thing! When I got the 94AE it already had the mounts on it so I bought a cheap 2-7x to put on it the same night I brought it home. In recent years the only guns that didn't have a scope was a Henry Survival Rifle (Junk) and the old post '64, pre AE Trapper I used to have. Both those had peeps which I downright didn't like for low light shooting. I do believe that a scope is the easiest to use, fastest sight available.

Now go over to hand guns.....I tried scopes on em and hated them. Ruined the compactness of them, made them slower to use and made them hard to holster for "general" woods bumming. I'm able to shoot well using factory opens on the handguns. 2" spinners run in fear from my 22/45 at 20 yards off hand, possums are toast out well beyond that. With my 4" security six I've been known to put up 3 shoot groups at 50 yards that measure 1.25" (bench). Even though 2-3" is more the norm.

Too me, the lever gun is kinda like the hand guns. Sure a scope is better for shooting and doesn't make it any worse for handling than a bolt gun. But why would I want a lever that handles like a bolt gun? I already have bolt guns.

Last night I went ahead and painted the sights. Just like I said in my OP, vertical line on the rear, fluorescent red dot on the front. IT DOES HELP. The front sight is much easier to pick up in all light conditions. Darkness is still a down fall. The line on the rear help center the notch in lower light. I DO THINK that the painted front sight will hurt for precision shooting. It just seems less "defined" and harder to focus on than the non-painted sight.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:28 am

We sort of went from sights to handling which is pure personal interpretation. So what do you want to carry in a particular situation. Your last post is an excellent weighing of the issue for you. I would say a scoped 94 handles like a very handy bolt like the model 7 Rem. which at least for me is quite handy enough.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:50 am

What makes you feel a scope is a faster sight than a open sighted gun?
I am now just talking about woods hunting for deer and such?
Myself I find it just the opposite?

Now with the defined edge/sharpness,I know where you are coming from.I looked forever to find the right Day Glow paint.
Mine is more of a clear translucent very thin coating when in the direct light the sight appears black/edges are sharp/defined.
all the previous stuff I tried prior I did not like.

Truthfully maybe for me its because I have hunted with this gun for 36 years.For me honestly,the rear sight does not play as important of a role because I am so used to this gun when it comes up(fast) I cheek its butt stock always right there(its always the same exact spot everytime)its just that simple for me.just sight the tip of the front sight at 6 ,o clock and your good to go.For a jumped buck from a logroad coming up on I have no gun faster.

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 9:55 am

It is going to be pretty hard to beat something you have used successfully for 36 years. But, vision is a very personal thing. One friend insists he shoots with both eyes open using a 6x scope - so one eye sees 1x and the other 6x at a running deer? He also tells of many misses doing this. Somehow he still thinks it is the way to go. Doesn't sound like a good formula to me.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:02 am

Cosmoline wrote:To each his own. To me it's like making love through an interpreter.

Looking at the buffalo wallow on my wife's side of the bed, that might not be such a bad idea!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:08 am

You guys are absolutely right.

What works for one, might not work for another.
I am happy for everyone that has a good way(any way) that does a good job for them.Cant ask for more than that!

Post by **Old Savage** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:24 am

Try not to be standing close to Travis when the lightning strikes.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Tue Jun 09, 2009 10:37 am

Shield your eyes iron sights guys !!

My brothers 94AE he left at my house so i can test the Leverrevolution factory stuff with a scope! I like the aesthetics better without the scope - but the 40 mm scope has excellent light gathering ability for early morning and late evening shooting. I grew up (late teens, early 20's) shooting M-16's in the army , so the ergonomics of the model 94 with a scope dont really bother me at all. (you also have to lift your head off the stock to see through the peep on a carry handle equipped '16)

If it was my personal rifle and i had to scope it, i would probably go a little smaller than this example , but it works great