Relative strength of a 1886 takedown Rifle vs Standard Rifle

[Jaguarundi]

Are strength and durability a issue over time with the Modern Winchester 1886 Miroku takedowns vs standard breech.I am also interested can the takedowns handle a steady diet of modern Hot Wild loads.Looking for some experienced 1886 owners opinions because I have been coveting a Deluxe takedown in 45-70.

[Gun Smith]

All takedown Winchesters have/had a method for tightning the barrel/receiver fit. We must then assume Winchester knew that the gun would shoot loose or stretch somewhat. As far as the strength goes, the barrel and receiver steel in new guns is superior to the old ones and those have held up well over the last 120 years. Shooting "hot" loads in any gun is going to wear them out faster than normal loads. My suggestion is to shoot moderate loads most of the time and limit "hot" loads to hunting situations. I have never understood the need to beat yourself and the gun up for fun. I would rather shoot 20 rounds of moderate loads over 10 rounds of hot ones. Remember the story about the old bull and the young bull and the heifers in the next pasture.

[Mike D.]

I have used all sorts of somewhat "hot" loads in my original takedown 1886s, but only when hunting. Like Gun Smith says, why shoot them on a regular basis? Unnecessary and hard on the old iron. For that matter, it's hard on the new ones too.

Personally, I don't honestly believe that there any strength difference between the solid frames and the takedowns. Winchestser would not have marketed them if that had been the case.

[Old Savage]

There was one old 1886 here that blew up with hot loads.

[Terry Murbach]

WHAT IN THE WORLD WOULD "HOT WILD LOADS" BE PRAY TELL ???

[Mike D.]

To me they are something to be FEARED. I guess adding several grains to any TOP load could be considered to fit that criteria. Accident waiting to happen.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

There was one old 1886 here that blew up with hot loads.

I think we should probably point out that pre-Nickel Steel vintage '86's should probably not be fired with "Hot Loads". I think any '86 from Nickel Steel on should be fine whether it's Winchester or Miroku.

Of course, one could probably blow up any gun with a load that is excessive beyond reason ... let's say a 45-70 mistakenly filled to the brim with Unique or some such craziness.

I will note that my takedown in 450 Alaskan was done with full threads instead of the traditional interrupted thread Winchester method. But I think it was just precautionary. I would have full confidence in an older Nickel Steel '86 with the normal interrupted threads.

[Pisgah]

Hot Wild Loads are a thing I avoid in any rifle. But I don't think the takedowns are any weaker in terms of the action than a standard. The "weakness" is in the takedown system. If it is frequently taken down sooner or later the takedown points wear and the barrel/receiver connection gets sloppy -- not desireable, but it has no effect on action lockup. As already mentioned, most all takedown systems have some method of tightening up built in to them. And for most takedowns, there's rarely a genuine reason to take them down, anyway.

[madman4570]

I am a slow learner,but I do learn.
What these guys say (which so many of them have much more
experience with this cartridge than I do)makes complete sense.
The Great thing about a 45-70 is that big bullet does not have
to go that fast.I loaded some handloads this week and reduced
my velocity 350fps it was so much more pleasant to shoot.
For years being mainly a velocity crazed magnum hot head,I
am finally learning what the old schoolers who know a lot are talking
about.Big and slow is good and will do the job.
After seeing and hearing about some of the groups they are shooting with those big slow bullets like KirkD with his(1 inch groups @ 100yards or an article where a guy shoots aprox 1 foot groups
@600yds.Both of these with old open sighted guns???Big and slow works.I want a Model 1873 Springfield or Springfield 1888 and I will put my Ruger#1 in the corner for awhile.

[Mike D.]

Hot Wild Loads are a thing I avoid in any rifle. But I don't think the takedowns are any weaker in terms of the action than a standard. The "weakness" is in the takedown system. If it is frequently taken down sooner or later the takedown points wear and the barrel/receiver connection gets sloppy -- not desireable, but it has no effect on action lockup. As already mentioned, most all takedown systems have some method of tightening up built in to them. And for most takedowns, there's rarely a genuine reason to take them down, anyway.

Of course, the Winchester, and other takedown leverguns were made to be disassembled for easy transport in a smaller case. I take mine down after every shooting session, in order to clean the barrels from the breech end. Putting back together is a breeze and they are tight as new when the job is done. There is nothing magic, or to be afraid of, about the TDs

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I take mine down after every shooting session, in order to clean the barrels from the breech end.

Amen to that. Makes cleaning so much easier.

[Mike Hunter]

As noted earlier the adjusting screws are there to take up the slack from repeated disassembly, not from firing.

So what are you hunting that a standard velocity 45-70 will not drop?

It always irritates me when folks want to put “hot loads” in their guns… nor no other reason than a bigger fireball.
When I reload my “hunting rounds” it’s always for maximum accuracy achievable out of a particular gun, not maximum velocity, and from my experience max loads in any caliber seldom gives you the best accuracy.

Mike

[Sixgun]

No difference--Shoot that '86 until the cows come home. Yea, I'm the guy who blew up that '86 but it was a blackpowder '86 that had been fired 2K (by me) with mostly warm to hot loads in my youth. It was metal fatigue.

I have fired tens of thousands of rounds out of original 86's (solid and takedown) with no noticable wear--only a nice clean polishing of their barrels

Your talking about new '86's----You can't wear 'em out in your lifetime unless you do something stupid like pushing 400 gr. bullets to 2400 fps.--------- Takedown or solid frame---------- I personally know of an acquaintence of mine who has shot 4000 rounds of heavy "Buffalo Bore" ammo out of his Miroko '86 and she's as tight as ever.---------Sixgun

[Mike D.]

I personally know of an acquaintence of mine who has shot 4000 rounds of heavy "Buffalo Bore" ammo out of his Miroko '86 and she's as tight as ever.---------Sixgun[/quote]

WHAT!? How in the world can he afford that? 4000 rds Buffalo Bore = another couple of really nice '86s.

[Sixgun]

I personally know of an acquaintence of mine who has shot 4000 rounds of heavy "Buffalo Bore" ammo out of his Miroko '86 and she's as tight as ever.---------Sixgun

WHAT!? How in the world can he afford that? 4000 rds Buffalo Bore = another couple of really nice '86s. [/quote]

Mike, For real. You know him too, as do most levergunners on the board------Its "86er" We had some business a year or so ago and we were chatting on the phone. He likes the heavy stuff. -----------Sixgun

[RKrodle]

I personally know of an acquaintence of mine who has shot 4000 rounds of heavy "Buffalo Bore" ammo out of his Miroko '86 and she's as tight as ever.---------Sixgun

WHAT!? How in the world can he afford that? 4000 rds Buffalo Bore = another couple of really nice '86s.

Mike, For real. You know him too, as do most levergunners on the board------Its "86er" We had some business a year or so ago and we were chatting on the phone. He likes the heavy stuff. -----------Sixgun[/quote]

He mostly shoots Grizzly ammo. I keep alot of the empty ammo boxes from him to reuse . And some of the brass .

[Sixgun]

He mostly shoots Grizzly ammo. I keep alot of the empty ammo boxes from him to reuse . And some of the brass .

Ricky, I was close, wasn't I? I knew it was some kind of heavy stuff. I'm amazed at the pounding he takes from that ammo -----Sixgun

[RKrodle]

He mostly shoots Grizzly ammo. I keep alot of the empty ammo boxes from him to reuse . And some of the brass .

Ricky, I was close, wasn't I? I knew it was some kind of heavy stuff. I'm amazed at the pounding he takes from that ammo -----Sixgun

I know what you mean, he's shooting it out of a 1886EL, A lot lighter then the standard rifle. I'm 6'3" and about 270lbs, and it aint no way I'm going to pound myself that way. I like the easy stuff

[crs]

Hey Sixgun;
What was the load for a 400 grain bullet at 2400 fps? Was it cast or jacketed? What pressure did it generate?

Seriously, 86er, RKrodle, and I have been pushing 450 grain NF solids and Kodiak FMJ to 2000+ through my Miroku TD 1886 .45-90 lately, but we had a good reason. I am sure we can get more velocity, but that should be enough to drop an elephant or cape buffalo nicely. We should know when 86er returns from Africa later this month.