OT: Warning: ineffective hollow points in your handgun

[KirkD]

I saw an autopsy report, including a number of photos, on a young fellow who was shot several times with a 40 S&W, and a 223. I cannot recall the make of the 40 S&W bullet that the police were using, but they were all delivered at less than 10 yards if I recall correctly, and the fellow was wearing only a t-shirt and jeans and he was lean of build. He was hit in the abdomen, chest and throat and none of the bullets penetrated more than 1" and none of them produced life-threatening injuries. It was a 223 wound than finally finished him off, and then only after he was manually subdued. I don't know where you can get your hands on this report. If I recall correctly, it was an FBI analysis on a PA shootout, if that helps at all.

If you are using hollow point bullets for defense, it seems that there are effective ones and ineffective ones. You may want to find out before you have a bad situation. I use cast, semi-wadcutters, which seem to feed flawlessly in my 45 Springfield Armory 1911.

ADDED Comment:I misread this report (linked further down). The first part of the report contains inaccurate information that the report is responding to. The actual facts are at the end of the report. It appears that all 40 S&W bullets did penetrate more than 1" and performed as per expectations. My mistake.

[Tycer]

Exactly why I carry the Federal 9BPLE. Real-world history of excellent performance.
Winchester White Box in my 380 ACP, It's just like a nice WFN cast.
135 grain Gold Dot short barrels in my 38s. Of the 9 Gold Dots I've shot into game from the 38, all penetrated well, NONE opened like in water or gelatin. The ones that hit bone glancing folded the nose in on itsself and tumbled, the ones that went through meat expanded to just over 38 cal and penetrated 10+"
158 grain Gold Dots @ 1400+fps in the .357. Expands and penetrates well.

[JerryB]

Kirk, that is really a scary thought that a .40 cal would not put down the guy with multiple hits. I thought that the .40 was the new round of the month replaceing the wonder nine as the finest round for the police. A .22 longrifle will do better than that. I'll see if I can find the report.

[Blaine]

I remember seeing that before and I'm not buying it....I absolutely belive you saw that just like I did, but 40 S&W with any kind of bullet is going to penetrate better than that, wouldn't ya think?

[KirkD]

Blaine, I don't know what to buy, but you can download a copy of the report here http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-co ... ootout.pdf but it's got various photos of the corpse, so be forewarned that it will be inappropriate for children to see. The ammo was Speer 180 grain Gold Dot.

I do not think there is a problem with the 40 S&W with the proper bullet; it has plenty of horsepower. If those bullets only penetrated 1" or less, I think it is a problem with too rapid expansion. Still, it is hard to believe. I would expect even a fully expanded 180 grain 40 S&W to penetrate a good sight more than 1". It just does not make sense to me. However, you can bet the farm that if I'm going to use a bullet for defense, I will make sure it can do the job.

[TedH]

Somethings not passing the BS test here. I find it almost inconceivable that a 180 gr. bullet of any caliber would only penetrate one inch in a human torso.

EDIT: If you read that report till the end, it states the FACTS. The 40 S&W ammo did not fail. Indeed most of the bullets that hit the suspect exited, they were just not placed in vital areas that would have ended the fight.

[txpete]

I shoot alot of 40 short and weak.175 gr bullet @1000 fps is going to penetrate more than one inch unless the guy is wearing a vest.
pete

[KirkD]

EDIT: If you read that report till the end, it states the FACTS. The 40 S&W ammo did not fail. Indeed most of the bullets that hit the suspect exited, they were just not placed in vital areas that would have ended the fight.

I took the information on the NTOA blog as describing the details of the engagement, but it appears that the report is actually responding to inaccurate details in that blog. I find the listed facts incomplete. They do state he was hit 17 times and 11 rounds exited the body. However, there is no breakdown as to which were wounds from the .223 and wounds from a .40 S&W. The entrance wounds should be easy to identify. Regardless, it does appear that the stated facts summary specifically refutes the NTOA blog statement that the 40 S&W rounds only penetrated 1". I thought that both the NTOA blog information as well as the summary at the end were the facts (i.e., the 40 S&W bullets only penetrated 1" and in their minds, this was not a failure .... I was surprised at that). It appears that only the summary at the end are the facts (i.e., the 40 S&W bullets all penetrated more than 1" and according to expectations).

My mistake. Thanks for clearing that up, TedH. It looks like the 40 S&W 180 grain Speer Gold Dots do the job just fine, provided good shot placement is used.

[Blaine]

Thanks for bringing this up, Kirk....I wasn't dumping on you, I promise

[KirkD]

Blaine, I don't blame you for finding it hard to believe ... it boggled my mind how a 40 S&W bullet could only penetrate 1". It certainly went against everything I have ever seen. I'd been scratching my head over it for over a month before posting it today.

Anyway, I misunderstood the report and am glad TedH, made the distinction between the blog (which was mistaken) and the actual facts.

[cnjarvis]

I have downloaded the report but haven't read it all yet so maybe I'll change my mind after finishing it.

I find it difficult to believe too especially since I put a 125 gr. Gold Dot (357 Sig) through a pig at 40 yards with the pig quartering to. Got complete penetration.

[Travis Morgan]

CNJarvis,

I suppose that was out of a handload, though. I have little faith in factory ammo, anymore.

[kimwcook]

Two rounds that are sanctioned in my department for a carry piece is the Federal Hydrashoks and the Speeer Gold Dots. Anything else isn't covered. The required penetration test in ballistic gel, I believe, is 12 inches with full expansion. You can get into different thicknesses of clothing, etc... you get my point.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Being a caster I will continue dropping my own and happily firing them off.
My dad was a police officer years ago and had the complete freedom to carry whatever he thought would keep him alive on his Colt 38 special. I was just a little feller then and have no idea what it was. At least many officers today can carry a 40 S&W. I like mine but would always choose a 41 mag revolver with a 240 grain at 950 fps.
Mike in Peru

[Noah Zark]

Thanks for the report, Kirk. Interesting.

I am reminded of the Internet gun forum anecdote that's gone around a few times in the past few years:

"A 9mm might expand, but a .45 doesn't shrink."


Noah

[kooz]

This had to defective ammo, I find 1" of penetration hard to believe. If the ammo had enough power to cycle the action it had enough to penetrate 1" of t-shirt covered flesh. On the other side of the coin if the ammo was very high velocity and the bullets fragmented on contact , they still would make better than 1" of penetration on such a soft target. I would like to see the report

[cnjarvis]

CNJarvis,

I suppose that was out of a handload, though. I have little faith in factory ammo, anymore.

Nope, that was factory ammo out of a 4" P226.

[KirkD]

This had to defective ammo, I find 1" of penetration hard to believe. If the ammo had enough power to cycle the action it had enough to penetrate 1" of t-shirt covered flesh. On the other side of the coin if the ammo was very high velocity and the bullets fragmented on contact , they still would make better than 1" of penetration on such a soft target. I would like to see the report

There is a link to the report earlier in this thread. The bullets did, in fact, penetrate much more than 1". I misunderstood the report. It begins with a series of details which I took to be the facts of the case, one of which was the less than 1" penetration. However, the info at the start of the report was not facts, but summary of inaccurate information circulating on a LEO blog. The actual facts are summarized at the end, where it is specifically stated that the 40 S&W ammo did not fail (i.e., it penetrated as expected, and much more than 1"). You are right in your intuition. Until it was pointed out earlier that the information at the start of the report are not the facts, but inaccurate info, I was having a very difficult time myself, trying to wrap my mind around how such ammo only penetrated less than 1" and 'did not fail'. This seemed like a contradiction to me, but sometimes truth is stranger than fiction. In this case, however, the shallow penetration is fiction, not fact. I've shot all kinds of ammo into chunks of firewood over the years, and shot all kinds of game with a wide variety of ammo, and seen that, basically, if it can make it out the barrel, it will penetrate more than 1" in flesh.

By way of interest, the weakest load I ever shot was 15 grains of IMR 3031 under a 250 grain hard cast bullet in an original 45 Schofield. I chrono'd the load at 298 fps. It bounced off a hard Elm short sawn piece of trunk, but still put a 1/4" hole in the side. Upping the load to 17 grains of IMR 3031 gave me 405 fps and 5/8" penetration in the hard Elm. 19 grains gave 536 fps and 1 & 1/8" penetration. 21 grains gave 615 fps and deep enough penetration that I could not measure it due to debris filling in behind the bullet. The wood I was shooting into was a good deal harder than flesh.

[Mike Hunter]

Now if the police had an 1886 carbine in 45-90 or 50 ex instead of that little ole mouse gun... 1st shot center of mass wold have put the bad guy on his butt wondering about the truck that hit him. second shot... lights out for good

[Travis Morgan]

Second shot....? Who the hell would need a second shot?

[tman]

sometimes you can kill a brown bear with a single .22lr. sometimes you can shoot a 100lb. deer with a .338mag, and it runs away and lives the next day. there's a lot of stories out there of bad guys soaking up a clip full of .45acp. lot of stories of bad guys dropping dead stone cold with a single hit from a .25acp. i can't explain this, but it sure does sell alot of guns.