OT: Do you believe in ghost or evil

tomtex · Post by **tomtex** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:43 pm

If you try to post on this topic and your computer stops, or something happens to your post, just post and tell us what happen! if not just tell your story.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:49 pm

I believe in ghosts and I'll tell ya how I know they exist. Who else but a ghost would take the OT: off the front of the subject line of this thread?

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 3:57 pm

1. I do not believe in ghosts, if you define ghost as the spirt of dead human being that is hanging around.
2. I do believe in evil, of all kinds. There is the individual human brand, the human collective human brand and spiritual evil.
3. I do believe in a personal devil/satan and his/her worker bees known as demons on evil spirits.
4. Although I belive in a personal devil and his'her minions, I hold no fear of them. Satan is a defeated enemy! "Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world".
5. I won't get into ghost and spirit stories on the Internet. I will just say that in my 37 years as Pastor and Missionary, I have had up close and personal encounters with demons. I have no doubt of their reality. Again, that does not mean fear of them by any means. Dead people and spirts are no threats to Christian people. It is the live people you got to keep in your sights. It also goes without saying I am very familar with human evil both individual and collective.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:01 pm

Charles wrote:1. I do not believe in ghosts, if you define ghost as the spirt of dead human being that is hanging around.
2. I do believe in evil, of all kinds. There is the individual human brand, the human collective human brand and spiritual evil.
3. I do believe in a personal devil/satan and his/her worker bees known as demons on evil spirits.
4. Although I belive in a personal devil and his'her minions, I hold no fear of them. Satan is a defeated enemy! "Greater is He that is in you, than he that is in the world".
5. I won't get into ghost and spirit stories on the Internet. I will just say that in my 37 years as Pastor and Missionary, I have had up close and personal encounters with demons. I have no doubt of their reality. Again, that does not mean fear of them by any means. Dead people and spirts are no threats to Christian people. It is the live people you got to keep in your sights. It also goes without saying I am very familar with human evil both individual and collective.

Demons would not be ghostly spirts?

deerwhacker444 · Post by **deerwhacker444** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:03 pm

I beleive in Pure Evil, I dated it...it's name is Sally..!

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:17 pm

if you consider the resurection of JESUS and the confirmation of the HOLY SPIRIT, put me down for yes.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:34 pm

Yeah - what Charles said. Except that part about 37 years as pastor and missionary. Still working on that part.

Blaine, it all depends on your definition of "ghostly spirits". The popular conception is that a "ghost" is the spirit of a dead person which hangs around or "haunts" some place. And although there ARE "haunted" places the spirit that is there is NOT that of a human who is no longer alive. satan and his minions are great deceivers and liars. If any of y'all want to talk in depth about the subject, I'll be driving all over the US this summer. If I'm in your area I'd be glad to sit down and discuss it with you. Oh, Blaine? I'll be up in the Kent/SeaTac/Seattle area sometime in July.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 4:46 pm

AmBraCol wrote:Yeah - what Charles said. Except that part about 37 years as pastor and missionary. Still working on that part.

Blaine, it all depends on your definition of "ghostly spirits". The popular conception is that a "ghost" is the spirit of a dead person which hangs around or "haunts" some place. And although there ARE "haunted" places the spirit that is there is NOT that of a human who is no longer alive. satan and his minions are great deceivers and liars. If any of y'all want to talk in depth about the subject, I'll be driving all over the US this summer. If I'm in your area I'd be glad to sit down and discuss it with you. Oh, Blaine? I'll be up in the Kent/SeaTac/Seattle area sometime in July.

Excellent.......Dinner on me

ByronG · Post by **ByronG** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:26 pm

Evil: Morally objectionable behavior. It exists.

Ghosts/Demons/Spirits? No experience of them and no belief in them.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 5:45 pm

ByronG wrote:Evil: Morally objectionable behavior. It exists.

Ghosts/Demons/Spirits? No experience of them and no belief in them.

"I've never seen it, therefor it doesn't exist." Sounds logical. Until one starts running into things one has never seen before - and finds out they DO exist after all. The same logic can be used to claim that any number of things do not exist - simply because one has never seen them. Kind of like the holocaust deniers. "I did not see or experience it, therefore it did not happen." Not trying to poke fun or irritate, just providing food for thought. And it really makes no nevermind to me if you believe in them or not. Just pointing out that a lack of experience does not provide a solid foundation for a lack of belief.

mklwhite · Post by **mklwhite** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:11 pm

Absolutely.

And here is something for fence sitters and some nay sayers to think about.

The Bible does talk about Ghosts, and the spirit of the dead returning to the earth.

In the Old Testament book of 1 Samuel chapter 28:7-25 we see Saul King of Israel visit a medium when God does not answer him when war approaches. The prophet Samuel has died and King Saul asks the medium to bring up Samuel from the dead. The Ghost of Samuel talks to the King and tells him his fate is sealed just as he told him while he was alive. Verses 11-15 talk about the appearance of the Ghost of Samuel:

Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”

The Bible clearly states that this is the Ghost of the prophet Samuel. Nowhere in the text does it state that he is otherwise. The spirit is the disembodied essence of the man, and he is recognizable. He is ‘brought up’ from the earth by the witch of Endor, brought from the grave to their presence.

According to the Old Testament, the concept of a Ghost or disembodies spirit of a deceased person is not only real, it is Scriptural.

What about the New Testament? A lot of Theological concepts evolve between the Testaments, such as Grace, Forgiveness and a host of others. What about the concept of a Ghost? Does this evolve as well after the teachings of Jesus?

Almost everyone has heard the story of Jesus walking on water, and if you ever went to Sunday School as a kid I am sure you additionally heard about Peter attempting to do the same and failing. This tale of trust and faith has been used for millennia to teach and encourage Christians. But just before the text talks about Peter’s attempt to come to Jesus on the water the text tells us something unusual:

Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear. But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.” Matthew 14:25-27

The disciples thought Jesus was a ghost. And they were afraid. Now if ghostly apparitions are all demonic presences as some Christians report, why were the disciples afraid? Just a few chapters earlier Jesus had demonstrated how to exorcise evil spirits and then commissioned the disciples to go all over the land and do so. (Matthew 8:28-34, Matthew 10:1-4) Although not implicit in the text it would seem that they should have had some personal experience in exorcism by themselves. So why were they afraid? Because they believed in Ghosts-the disembodied spirits of the dead who still roam the earth. And not only that, Jesus did not rebuke them for thinking he was a Ghost, instead He just calmed them down and let them know it was Him. If the concept of a disembodied spirit is so unbiblical why did Jesus let his disciples believe such things exist without correction?

Christian Scripture itself attests to the validity of Ghosts, and supports the idea that they are the disembodied spirits of the dead.

But there is one last bible passage I wish to share that many overlook that proves the manifestation of spirits from the spirit realm into this physical world. That verse can be found in Mark 9:4, in the famous Mount of Transfiguration passage:

"and there appeared to them, Elijah with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus."

Not trying to start a flame war. Just pointing some things out that are not based upon opinion or view but the words themselves.

Post by **Hobie** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:31 pm

I have seen evil.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 6:38 pm

I absolutely do believe in ghosts or the spirits of those gone before us hanging around. In the house we moved out of last year, there were three incidents that have no other explanation. I'm glad to be out of that house.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:03 pm

Hobie wrote:I have seen evil.

I hear ya Hobie. I've seen evil too and I've seen the results of evil.

On a more serious note than my first response above, I don't care if people call them ghosts or spirits -- I firmly believe in them. Call me wacky, I don't care. They're there.

You (meaning anyone) go to the "Tomb of the Unknown Soldier" at the Arlington National Cemetery in Arlington, VA across the Potomac River from the Lincoln Memorian in Washington, D.C. and tell me you don't feel the presence of those enshrined there perhaps even see them.

I just don't think you can believe in God and not believe in some form of ghosts or spirits. Just my .02¢

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:04 pm

I definitely believe in evil. Jury's still out on ghosts.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:52 pm

According to what I've read, at the time of a person's death, the spirit or soul of a person is taken possession of by God, who does with it as He wills. Therefore, it is not possible that He would allow that spiritual entity to wander this earthly plane. My opinion is that demonic spirits are impersonating the spirits of human beings in order to deceive those still alive & lead them away from the Truth, which is that Jesus is The Way; The Truth; & The Life; & no one comes to God except thru Him, (Jesus). A person may perceive that they "see" a ghost, which they have been led to believe is the spirit of a human being, but they are being deceived, in part because they've lent themselves to being deceived, in part because they've been mis-informed, even by their church leaders, if they go to church, but also by the secular information services. Some people would rather believe a "cunningly devised fable" rather than the unnactractive, (to them, at least) truth. jd45.
P.S........you better believe there's evil in the world, and a lot of it that's described as the actions of a mentally unbalanced person, is actually that. I don't believe the American Psychiatric Association is willing to recognize that evil resides within the hearts of men AND women. They think it's a medical condition, (!) Oh well, that's all you can expect from that bunch of atheists. jd45

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 7:58 pm

Sure - it is obvious - the Ghost of Freedom Past has been displaced by Evil incarnate. We all saw that back in November...

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:00 pm

Well said AJMD429! Well said! jd45

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:11 pm

mklwhite, I don't contest your pointing out these passages, but I think you have to unsderstand that God had a specific reason for doing it & it was extremely rare, in order to fit in with HIS ultimate plan. I don't think it's legitimate to take this example & run miles with it, to explain all the instances of people "interpretting" this as ghost, (read that......spirits of dead people) activity on a broad scale, that these so-called psychics advocate. jd45

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:20 pm

Ditto what Charles said.

creosote · Post by **creosote** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:21 pm

jd45 wrote:Well said AJMD429! Well said! jd45

I can only add :
"The Dead Know Nothing"
I find comfort in that and it explains for me
any "ghostly" events,
Creosote

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:22 pm

Ghosts do not exist. The lights go out.

Evil is nothing more than screwed up people who are not wired right---------some manage to get power and cause real evil for millions-------Hitler, Stalin, etc.

Some animals can get evil---its usually because they have a toothache or some other malady. No demon gets inside them.

Evil people who do not attain power cause evil for the ones around them-----murderers, rapists, heavy drink and drug abusers, etc

Its up to each person to have the smarts to determine evil people from Christian people. A turban on their head is usually a dead giveaway. Gangster tattoos, dirty bikers on stolen Harleys, Liberals, politicians, non-believers of the second amendment, or anyone with a law degree is also suspect.

These people should be rounded up and sent to California.-----------Sixgun

ByronG · Post by **ByronG** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:23 pm

AmBraCol wrote:
ByronG wrote:Evil: Morally objectionable behavior. It exists.

Ghosts/Demons/Spirits? No experience of them and no belief in them.
"I've never seen it, therefor it doesn't exist." Sounds logical. Until one starts running into things one has never seen before - and finds out they DO exist after all. The same logic can be used to claim that any number of things do not exist - simply because one has never seen them. Kind of like the holocaust deniers. "I did not see or experience it, therefore it did not happen." Not trying to poke fun or irritate, just providing food for thought. And it really makes no nevermind to me if you believe in them or not. Just pointing out that a lack of experience does not provide a solid foundation for a lack of belief.

There is no 'therefore' in my statement. I do not believe in them, nor in any other mythical beings.

ByronG · Post by **ByronG** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:26 pm

Sixgun wrote:
Its up to each person to have the smarts to determine evil people from Christian people.
These people should be rounded up and sent to California.-----------Sixgun

So non-Christian = Evil ?

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:32 pm

Tough topic, in fact I almost passed it by.

Do I believe in Evil - definately. Satan and demons exist. I have seen Evil in others and i hate to admit, but I have been Evil.

I do not have an opinion on Ghosts though I am pretty sure I have not met one.

I also believe in the ultimate opposite of Evil - GOD, who sent his son down from his heavenly throne to suffer evil that we might have eternal life in him. So I know, that what evil exists, it is already defeated through the suffering, blood and resurrection of my savior, Jesus the Christ.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 8:38 pm

Sixgun.........I'm with ya on about 98% of what you said!!! jd45

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:08 pm

ByronG wrote:

So non-Christian = Evil ?

If the ragheads can say it, so can the Christians

abcollector · Post by **abcollector** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:42 pm

These people should be rounded up and sent to California.-----------Sixgun

Come on now... why'd you have to pick California? Wouldn't a tiny island be better that you could sink?

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 9:49 pm

Sixgun wrote:These people should be rounded up and sent to California.-----------Sixgun

Sixgun -

I'd say that statement makes you the "Devil Incarnate". But then again by that statement, you acknowledge that none of those people are in CA. Therefore, you can keep em.

Jeez!!! I really don't like these quasi religious threads. It brings out the "Devil" in all of us.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Mon Mar 09, 2009 11:50 pm

When you live in a haunted house it is hard not to believe in ghosts. Nearly 20 years of footsteps with no one to make them and doors opening by themselves, and things being moved without the assistance of me, my wife or my dogs have pretty well convinced me that there are ghosts.

As for existence of evil, anyone who dies not believe in pure evil has never studied history. Lots of evil people are called insane, but I defy anyone to explain people like Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin, Jeffery Dalmer, or John Wayne Gacy as anything but evil personified.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:05 am

I'm with you Doc. The house we owned previously had some strange things happen. Not necessarily unexplained noises, but items being moved around.

The worst one was a time my wife and daughter were out of town for the weekend. My daughter was about 3 years old at the time, and she loved to take all the pillows she could find and line them up in a row across the floor. This one Saturday morning I decided to take advantage of my alone time with a trip to the range. All my gear and guns were kept in the basement. I loaded up and headed out. Upon returning home I found a line of several pillows across the basement floor right in front of my gun safe that was not there when I left the house. I called my wife's cell phone because I wasn't expecting them home that soon. To my surprise they were still out of town. I've never had a more eerie feeling in my life.

mklwhite · Post by **mklwhite** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:37 am

jd45 wrote:mklwhite, I don't contest your pointing out these passages, but I think you have to unsderstand that God had a specific reason for doing it & it was extremely rare, in order to fit in with HIS ultimate plan. I don't think it's legitimate to take this example & run miles with it, to explain all the instances of people "interpretting" this as ghost, (read that......spirits of dead people) activity on a broad scale, that these so-called psychics advocate. jd45

I wasn't meaning to run miles with it, the question was do you believe in ghosts (or evil) I was merely pointing out that if you believe in the Bible and say it is unerring that you, therefor, must believe in ghosts. I was not trying to use the Bible to argue frequency of occurrence simply that if you believe the Bible as fact and the Bible said 'look there, a ghost' then you would have to believe in ghosts as well. Period.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:57 am

I have several "ghost" stories in which family members have had a personal involvement but I'm not convinced they really concern ghosts as we commonly use the term. In none of those experiences was any evil immediately apparent (and evil is good at not being immediately apparent).

The whole subject is very interesting. I believe that omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent God has a creation that works by certain rules we can discern through science in order to exercise dominion over this plane of that creation in our lives of learning. We call that ever evolving/continuing learning of those rules "science". I think that while there is a rule about everything, including "ghosts" or supposed "ghostly" activities, we might never know those rules.

I think that there are definitely some folks who try to exploit the subject using one angle or another to gain money, attention or power over others (or some combination) and probably more. It is easy to do as it is apparently nearly impossible to actually use our current technology to unequivocally record proof of "ghosts".

I have to say that I think the impact that hallowed sites make on us is a different thing entirely. Going to the cemeteries in Normandy or Arlington (including the Tomb of the Unknowns) and knowing the circumstances of those interred there has a lot of cultural significance and makes a big impression on people such as we are.

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:11 am

Hobie,

To your list of cemeteries and the Tomb of the Unknowns I will add that places where men made great sacrifices for their people and their country also have a deeply moving spiritual power.

Can you honestly say that when you walk the battlefields of Mananas, Chancellorsville, Shiloh, or the killing fields of Fredricksburg that you cannot feel the presence of the men who sacrificed their lives there? Or that you don't feel the spirit of those gallant men who gave their lives in the forlorn defense of the Alamo when you walk through that old church?

(The one time I was able to visit the Alamo, I overheard a kid about 10-years old ask his Mom why everyone was walking and talking quietly like in church. Mama looked a little unsure how to answer so I spoke up and said, "Son, any place where brave men give their lives for Liberty is holy ground, and respectable people act as such." Mama looked relieved to have someone explain it to her son and the kid looked very thoughtful.)

Perhaps it is not a ghostly presence per say, but I certainly believe that such valiant struggles leave a spiritual echo that living men can feel.

FWIW, I don't put a lot of stock in people who claim to have frequent contact with "the spirit world" for monetary gain. I believe that 98% of those folks are fake and have my doubts about the other 2%. But I believe that many, perhaps most of us can feel those spiritual echoes when the time and place is right.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:22 am

Though not taught much anymore, in classic Christian theology there are two orders or creation.

1. The "natural order" - Which includes you, me and the visable and tangible universe around us.
2. The "praeternatural order" - This is an order of creation that would include angels, demons, and spirits of serveral kinds. Though not of the natural order, and having powers in excess of the natural order, they are non the less created and finite. Satan would be part of the praeternatural order.

Then there was the "supernatural" which was the divine with all the attributes of divinity.

In the recent past, praeternatural and supernatural sorta got rolled into one and most folks don't make a distinction.

I know some folks don't "give a fig" about classic Christian theology, but for those that do, I offer the above obscure tidbit which is on topic.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:32 am

Doc, Hobie, et al... When I stood on the ground at Gettysburg where George Picketts men were killed by the thousand as they marched in rank accross almost a mile of open country, it dropped me to my knees. First the cannon, then the cannon loaded with grape shot and canister, and then into the hail of musket balls from thousands of Federal rifles, on they came. They steped over the wounded, the dead and the dying to close ranks and continue their march. How men could do that is beyond my understanding. To be certain there are other examples of American heroism, but that is the one that literally took the starch out of me. In my minds eye, I could see the gunsmoke and hear the gunfire. I could smell the blood and hear the screams of the dead and dying.

George Pickett hated Robert E. Lee for ordering that charge and never forgave him for that needless and foolish suicide charge.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:37 am

Doc Hudson wrote:Hobie,

To your list of cemeteries and the Tomb of the Unknowns I will add that places where men made great sacrifices for their people and their country also have a deeply moving spiritual power.

Can you honestly say that when you walk the battlefields of Mananas, Chancellorsville, Shiloh, or the killing fields of Fredricksburg that you cannot feel the presence of the men who sacrificed their lives there? Or that you don't feel the spirit of those gallant men who gave their lives in the forlorn defense of the Alamo when you walk through that old church?

(The one time I was able to visit the Alamo, I overheard a kid about 10-years old ask his Mom why everyone was walking and talking quietly like in church. Mama looked a little unsure how to answer so I spoke up and said, "Son, any place where brave men give their lives for Liberty is holy ground, and respectable people act as such." Mama looked relieved to have someone explain it to her son and the kid looked very thoughtful.)

Perhaps it is not a ghostly presence per say, but I certainly believe that such valiant struggles leave a spiritual echo that living men can feel.

FWIW, I don't put a lot of stock in people who claim to have frequent contact with "the spirit world" for monetary gain. I believe that 98% of those folks are fake and have my doubts about the other 2%. But I believe that many, perhaps most of us can feel those spiritual echoes when the time and place is right.

Doc,

I agree about the effect places can have on us. I have been to Gettysburg, the Alamo, the Crater, Omaha Beach, etc. There is something but I'm not so sure it isn't a respect inculcated by my parents, friends, and life experience. Still, it affects me as I know it affects you.

I take "my dad" hunting most every year by carrying his old Remington Model 8 (along with HIS dad and "uncle"). I feel as though they are there with me. There is something special in carrying that old gun for me. Sort of the same thing.

Post by **Hobie** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:43 am

Charles wrote:Doc, Hobie, et al... When I stood on the ground at Gettysburg where George Pickett's men were killed by the thousand as they marched in rank across almost a mile of open country, it dropped me to my knees. First the cannon, then the cannon loaded with grape shot and canister, and then into the hail of musket balls from thousands of Federal rifles, on they came. They stepped over the wounded, the dead and the dying to close ranks and continue their march. How men could do that is beyond my understanding. To be certain there are other examples of American heroism, but that is the one that literally took the starch out of me. In my minds eye, I could see the gunsmoke and hear the gunfire. I could smell the blood and hear the screams of the dead and dying.

George Pickett hated Robert E. Lee for ordering that charge and never forgave him for that needless and foolish suicide charge.

I've been there and walked the field. We were doing a "staff walk" and moved, all members of the "Stonewall Brigade", across the field in close order. Quite an experience.

Dittos at Omaha Beach. My dad's first cousin (PFC Gano "Sonny" Jewell) was there as a medic. I tried to imagine what his life was from June 6 to August 7, 1944 (he was killed on the 7th near Vire). What those men is humbling.

rangerider7 · Post by **rangerider7** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 9:51 am

I have a very close friend for some 30 years. He recently had a heart attack. He died and was brought back to life on the operating table. I saw him a few months after this and he told me what happened. He said " Bob, you have heard of people seeing a white light when they die, well I saw red". "It was the devil himself". He said " he was horrible, reddish, growths all over his face, unbelievable evil eyes". "There was others deform creatures all around him" he said. "There was screaming and groaning in the background and the smell was horrible" he added. "It was hot and steam was coming up around him"."He was beckoning me to him. I was terrified". "Then all of the sudden I started going backwards away from him and he faded away". The next thing he knew he was awake in ICU. He called his wife and told her to go and get a minister. She went and asked if they had one in the hospital they said yes and sent him to his room. My friend told him what had happened and wanted to confess his sins and be saved. The preacher told him he would pray with him. As soon as he was able to leave the hospital he told his wife to find the nearest church and he got baptized on the spot. This was during the week. I have never seen my friend so scared. He is a smart, trustworthy, and loyal friend. I didn't ask what he had done that might cause him to see the devil, but I know he was a rounder in the old days and had not been a church believer. He is now! We talked for hours about his experience and how he has changed his life. I have always been a believer since I was very young. This certainly reinforced my beliefs.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:56 pm

awesome story

Pathfinder09 · Post by **Pathfinder09** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 1:59 pm

Though I walk through the valley of death I shall fear no evil because.......I carry a .45-70 lever gun loaded with Garrett Hammerheads, and I am the meanest *** in the valley!

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:03 pm

Rangerider... I have had folks relate to me their death experiences, both the good kind and the kind you mention. If you are not a beliver before one of those experiences you will be after. I once heard an old Kentucky preacher say... "Those folks who say their ain't no hell, will change their minds when they been there 30 second. "

Jim Elliot wrote before he was killed in the jungle... "He is no fool to give up what he can't keep, to gain what he can't lose!"

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 2:43 pm

Funny how non-believers are made believers by life experiences.

Back in 1981, I was attached to the USS Ranger (CV-61) and we were tied up to the pier at Naval Air Station, Coronado, CA across the bay from San Diego, CA. I had been on liberty one evening and upon returning to the ship, I learned that a fire had broken out in the port (left) side catapult and was endangering the Communications Spaces and forward berthing areas. It was a HUGE fire. I reported to the Damage Control Officer and was assigned as the lead-man on a fire hose team. There were two hose teams. Mine was the lead team spraying a concentrated jet of water and foam on the flames as we penetrated the spaces on fire while the second hose team followed us and applied a "fog" of water on us so that we would not be burned while penetrating the spaces on fire. When fighting a fire like that, the lead man holds and operates the hose nozzle with both hands while the guys behind him hold onto the hose with one arm and holds onto the belt of the guy in front of him with his other hand.

Anyway, the guy behind me on my hose team was well known for his anti-God/anti-religious beliefs. While in those flames and in the fire he was heard not only by me but by a couple of other guys on the team asking for God's help over and over. After that fire, he was a regular at religious services whenever on board both in port and at sea.

That was one hell of a fire. It was on the 03-Level just below the flight deck and many flight deck plates (2" steel") were buckled and needed replacing.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 3:30 pm

AmBraCol wrote:Yeah - what Charles said. Except that part about 37 years as pastor and missionary. Still working on that part.

Blaine, it all depends on your definition of "ghostly spirits". The popular conception is that a "ghost" is the spirit of a dead person which hangs around or "haunts" some place. And although there ARE "haunted" places the spirit that is there is NOT that of a human who is no longer alive. satan and his minions are great deceivers and liars. If any of y'all want to talk in depth about the subject, I'll be driving all over the US this summer. If I'm in your area I'd be glad to sit down and discuss it with you. Oh, Blaine? I'll be up in the Kent/SeaTac/Seattle area sometime in July.

A hearty AMEN to Charles and Paul!

"For the living are conscious that they will die, but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun."

Ecclesiastes 9:5,6

Very simple logical explanation for Saul and the "Ghost of Samuel" which was not a ghost of Samuel at all but devil deceiving King Saul.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:30 pm

GANJIRO wrote:Very simple logical explanation for Saul and the "Ghost of Samuel" which was not a ghost of Samuel at all but devil deceiving King Saul.

Actually, Ji, if you look at that passage the woman's reaction was one of amazement or fear. She did NOT get what she was expecting. There was something different than usual going on. Ben Alexander of Exposing satan's Power ministries grew up in a spiritualist home. But as he grew up he learned the truth and turned away from those things. You see, spirits can and do impersonate the dead. We are NOT alone, there are spiritual beings around us - both good and evil ones. And when you think "no one but me and so and so know about THIS incident" - well perhaps you and that person were the only humans who knew it but that doesn't keep spirits from observing.

As for mentions of the apostles reactions to seeing Christ on the water - that proves nothing because they were products of the society around them and shared many of the same beliefs. So for them to say "Look, a GHOST!" would be natural. The Bible relates happenings, often with no commentary as to the rightness or wrongness or anything else, it just lays things out for us to meditate on and learn from. Things like Abraham, the "father of the faith" lying to save his skin. Or David, "the man after God's own heart" who seduced the neighbor's wife and then murdered the neighbor by proxy in order to cover it up. The Bible doesn't whitewash things, it lays out human weaknesses and frailties and shows how God can use us in spite of our weakness. In this case, Christ was not a ghost nor did Peter become one in order to walk over the surface of the stormy water. God can and does sometimes suspend the natural order of things in order to accomplish His purposes. We call those suspensions "miracles" and they are just manifestations of His Power over the creation He made. Since we are limited by time and space it is hard for us to get our minds wrapped around an infinite God who is in His creation and also beyond, outside of His creation. In the words of Del Tackett - we tend to look at the stuff in the box for the answers, instead of looking outside of the box for information about the One Who made the box in the first place.

For an interesting read on the state of those who have passed on, check out Luke 16:19-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

The interesting thing about the Moses and Elias incident on the "mount of transfiguration" is that the apostles KNEW who they were, even though both of them had passed on to their reward centuries before. Why were they there? Volumes have been written about this - but one thing is certain and that is that this was one more incidence of exceptions to the rule. We can not judge what is "normal" by the abnormal - no matter how much people wish it were so.

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 4:30 pm

There are a good number of bible verses that tell us that dead men know not anything.
An example might be Ecc.9:5, simply says that living men "know that they shall die, (their brain is working and thinking and knows this every time they look in the mirror

), but the dead know not anything." No, because they are dead in a grave, waiting for a resurrection, as the bible teaches over and over again. So, knowing that soothsayers, witches, mediums, etc were totally condemned in the bible by God, it's obvious that Saul did the wrong thing consulting with the woman. Where was the vision coming from? Was God at work in this to bring this vision, or was it from Satan? Can a man who is dead, waiting for a resurrection, who has no thoughts, and is like Job-- in Job 14: 14-15, can he be available to be called up and come running because he is beckoned by a man or woman? There are plenty of scriptures that will have to be thrown in the trash can in order to believe that "disembodied souls of dead people" lurk about. But Satan is crafty all right, and "shows people a lot of stuff".

mklwhite · Post by **mklwhite** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:02 pm

Another Biblical passage that refers to ghosts...
Would Jesus compare himself to something that doesn't exist?
Luke 24:38-40 "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

It really doesn't matter to me if people believe in ghosts, the Bible or whatever. That is for them to decide. It is frustrating when the Bible is used in support of a position and we are told 'it says this', but when a passage from the Bible that supports a counter point is mentioned, often what follows is 'it means this'. Kind of smacks of buffet style Christianity, but who am I to judge?

Other religions/belief systems speak of ghosts and I would mention those here in support of the belief in ghosts but since the question was more of a personal nature as to what the responder believes they may not have anymore relevance than what the Bible says on the subject since it is the opinion/experiences of the responder not that of the third party source to which they base that opinion on.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:26 pm

mklwhite wrote:Another Biblical passage that refers to ghosts...
Would Jesus compare himself to something that doesn't exist?
Luke 24:38-40 "Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."

It really doesn't matter to me if people believe in ghosts, the Bible or whatever. That is for them to decide. It is frustrating when the Bible is used in support of a position and we are told 'it says this', but when a passage from the Bible that supports a counter point is mentioned, often what follows is 'it means this'. Kind of smacks of buffet style Christianity, but who am I to judge?

Other religions/belief systems speak of ghosts and I would mention those here in support of the belief in ghosts but since the question was more of a personal nature as to what the responder believes they may not have anymore relevance than what the Bible says on the subject since it is the opinion/experiences of the responder not that of the third party source to which they base that opinion on.

Again, as I mentioned before, it comes back to how you use and/or understand the word. The word that was translated into English as "ghost" in the translation you use is πνεῦμα (pneuma) in the Greek. It means, depending on context, "a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind." The usual modern translation of the word is "spirit" as it defines more clearly the concept of the original word. "ghost" is bound up with a lot of cultural baggage and as such clouds the meaning and intent of the original author. If you replace "ghost" with "spirit" as translated in more modern times you can understand what the Christ was saying. A spirit apparition does not have a body as He most obviously did. In other words, He had a bodily resurrection and was not just some spirit out to haunt as their belief system lead them to think.

And yes, this thread was started as a personal opinion thread. And personal opinions abound. For me, personally, it's interesting to hear what folks believe and think - but more importantly WHY do they believe and think as they do. Part of the question had to do with evil. But evil is a concept that is difficult for many to explain or understand - especially when they claim that we are just "animals evolved from nothing". If that is true, then there is no true measure by which we can say "this is evil" or "that is evil" because we're just animals acting from pure instinct with no basis for moral conceptions. And such thinking opens the door for all kinds of evil because then whatever you want to do is OK - it's just your way of acting out your genetic makeup. So if you want to sexually attack anyone or kill anyone that's OK. You're just a dominant animal marking your territory. If you want to take that which "belongs" to another, that's OK. It's just the law of the jungle, eat or be eaten. Spread your genes so that future generations will be stronger. However, if you believe in a Creator and that He has a Plan and a purpose for life - then you must ask, "What is His plan and purpose for me?" And as one sees the order and beauty of the creation one sees that there IS an Architect - Who expects us to live in an ordered and beautiful way.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:51 pm

It seems to me that it still comes down to the question of what is the true nature of that which people commonly refer to as ghosts. I don't think they're the disembodied spirits of dead human beings. I think it's a deception, just one item on a list of things that God, for reasons only He knows, allows Satan to perpetrate on those of us who are already leaning in the direction of not wanting to know the truth, but rather give themselves over to the "cunningly devised fables" mentioned in a previous post. jd45

Post by **AmBraCol** » Tue Mar 10, 2009 6:55 pm

jd45 wrote:It seems to me that it still comes down to the question of what is the true nature of that which people commonly refer to as ghosts. I don't think they're the disembodied spirits of dead human beings. I think it's a deception, just one item on a list of things that God, for reasons only He knows, allows Satan to perpetrate on those of us who are already leaning in the direction of not wanting to know the truth, but rather give themselves over to the "cunningly devised fables" mentioned in a previous post. jd45

And what is commonly referred to as a "ghost" today is usually an impersonation by a malevolent being. The enemy can appear even as an angel of light so appearing as a human who has passed on is not a problem for them.

Just for variety in this weird and wonderful mix - I'm convinced that much of what passes for UFO's is from the same source.