OT:FFL on antique Springfield?

[Mainehunter]

I have an 1884 Springfield trapdoor for sale and I had guy that was interested in buying. We came to an agreement on the price but there was a problem for him on giving me a copy of an FFL which my gun dealer needs. I know and my gun dealer knows it's antique and by law really don't need one but it's my gun dealers policy regardless. Also, when I purchased it from another gun dealer years ago I had to do the usual paper work to have it registered. I questioned at the time why since it was an antique and he said the same thing it's his policy. So, not only did the gentlemen refused on sending an FFL, when I asked if he can send me a copy of his drivers license instead he said no and said that he has changed his mine on the rifle. So my thought is did I go overboard on this or did I do the right thing and asked for either an FFL or drivers license?

Mainehunter

[awp101]

Federal law says it's an antique therefore no paperwork so you could send it person to person unless there's a state law involved somewhere.

If I were sending it person to person, I would ask for a copy of the DL.

Of course in Texas we have it pretty easy...

[Modoc ED]

How old does it have to be to be considered an antique/curio/relic?

[Mike D.]

Your dealer is blatently attempting to rip off the buyer by needlessly requiring an FFL be involved in this transaction. All he is wanting are a few bucks on the back of the buyer. It's time to lose that "dealer" and find an honest one, or better yet, send it to him yourself and forget the theiving "dealer" and his rediculous "policy". ALL 1884s are antiques, because they were all manufactured prior to 31 december 1898, and therefore require ZERO paperwork.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

How old does it have to be to be considered an antique/curio/relic?

Antiques in general are made pre 1898.

C&R's
From the ATF webste: http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/index.htm
Firearms automatically attain curio or relic (C&R) status when they are 50 years old. Any firearm that is at least 50 years old, and in its original configuration, would qualify as a C&R firearm. It is not necessary for such firearms to be listed in ATF’s C&R list.

But newer guns can be C&R if they are on the ATF list. http://www.atf.gov/firearms/curios/2001index.htm

[Sixgun]

Mike D. is right except where state laws comes in. Some states do not make a distinction to "antique" or "non antique" IF the gun in question can chamber and shoot ammunition that is readily available over the counter.

So.........45-70 ammo is readily available but lets pretend the gun was a Spencer in 56-50 RF. The ammo for that gun is not available in the common forms of commerce, so would be exempt.

Make sense? Not to me. But just try selling an antique S&W .32 Short to a NJ resident without an FFL and just hope the buyer is not an ATF agent.

They will tell you at your trial that ignorance is no excuse for the law---------------Sixgun

[Old Time Hunter]

Your dealer is blatently attempting to rip off the buyer by needlessly requiring an FFL be involved in this transaction. All he is wanting are a few bucks on the back of the buyer. It's time to lose that "dealer" and find an honest one, or better yet, send it to him yourself and forget the theiving "dealer" and his rediculous "policy". ALL 1884s are antiques, because they were all manufactured prior to 31 december 1898, and therefore require ZERO paperwork.

Yes, what Mike says. +1. Depending on what state your buyer is in though, it might be a good idea to get a DL for confirmation of USPS shipping.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Your dealer is blatently attempting to rip off the buyer by needlessly requiring an FFL be involved in this transaction. All he is wanting are a few bucks on the back of the buyer. It's time to lose that "dealer" and find an honest one, or better yet, send it to him yourself and forget the theiving "dealer" and his rediculous "policy". ALL 1884s are antiques, because they were all manufactured prior to 31 december 1898, and therefore require ZERO paperwork.

Mike,
That is true of federal law but not state law. Some states require even antiques to be transferred through an FFL. Just like your state doesn't allow legal SBR's like the Maresleg leveraction 92's made from original Wins, some states have different laws than others. That doesn't make the FFL dishonest. Even if it is a store policy, you don't know what the FFL has had to deal with from the ATF in the past. He may be trying to dot every i and cross every t. I have been audited a couple time. Believe me if there is any doubt you want to conduct the transaction with the least amount of leeway. Because there have been reproductions of the trapdoors made since 1898 I can easily see where a dealer would book this to the A&D.
think about this, before the Clintons there were approximately 500,000 FFL's. Since then, the number is around 80,000. The AFT is making it harder and hard to stay in business. between the AFT and the Big Box stores, FFL's now days walk a tight rope just to stay in business.

[Mainehunter]

I probably need to do some research on this, particular on state laws. Does anybody know where I should start? Maybe on the NRA or ATF websites? I could see myself not getting the FFL letter since it's an antique I could understand that but not even sending a copy of his drivers license's that I don't get.

Mainehunter

[awp101]

If he's not willing to provide a copy of the DL, walk away.

In TX I can do a FTF sale with no paperwork but I DO ask for ID to verify they are of legal age and they are a TX resident. I'm just following the letter of the law.

[Sixgun]

If he's not willing to provide a copy of the DL, walk away.

Good advice above--Yea, it can be a hassle for him to provide an FFL but there's two ways of looking at this. #1) Its saving him $20 or $30 by not using an FFL. #2.) Your no attorney--Its saving you 5-10 g's plus freedom. Lots of aggravation out there nowadays. G-men are always looking to make examples out of white guys with jobs. My moto is-"If in doubt-do without"

[TedH]

If he's not willing to provide a copy of the DL, walk away.

That's exactly what I was going to say. I want to know who I'm selling to.

[marlinman93]

I've had to do an FFL transfer on a couple antique guns, and had I not wanted them badly I too would have walked away! To request a FFL transfer on an antique is rediculous if your state does not require it. You can contact your state offices and ask if it's required. Most likely some part of the State Police will be able to answer that question, or the local office of ATF in your state.
As for the driver's license, you not only were NOT out of line, but every state I know of requires even antique guns to be sold to customers over 18 yrs. old. You need some photo ID that proves the buyer is 18 or older, so the driver's license is best. Now the seller can easily black out his license number, if he's worried about ID theft, but he does need to provide proof of age.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

If he's not willing to provide a copy of the DL, walk away.

That's exactly what I was going to say. I want to know who I'm selling to.

+1
When I sell antiques I ask for a photocopy of a DL.
But, I only sell as antiques if I have document able proof it's an antique. You can't just assume it is. Here is a good example. This is a IV pattern Remington. It is in 41 rimfire. Many folks automatically assume it is a pre-98 antique, but it's not. These were made into the 20's. Some would say you can still call it an antique because the ammo is not available. The problem with that is it has been available from Europe and because of the CAS game there was talk of a remake of the ammo. This makes the whole thing just too ambiguous. An FFL or C&R is good CYA

[awp101]

I've had to do an FFL transfer on a couple antique guns, and had I not wanted them badly I too would have walked away!

I've done it once because Cabela's insisted it was company policy even though the clerk I dealt with knew the Federal law. I almost walked but went ahead with it and I'm glad because that little Marlin 1889 .38-40 sure is fun!