.38 WCF questions

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:31 pm

Dusty Texian wrote:casastahle ,if the rifle were mine I would remove the extra back-strap and have a look at the repaired tang.If it looked solid ,by adding a tang sight in place of the back strap it should be strong enough ,until your horse rolls onto it again.You may be able to salvage the 1873 Winchester markings on the tang,if that is of interest to you. And if you decide against the tang sight, you could put it right back like it is. ,,,DT

I did it Dusty, and this is going to work.

I'm now officially in the market for a tang sight.

The hole threads are perfect, just needed to run a tap through them to clean them out.
The model 1873 script is perfect as well.
Okay, what tang sight should I be looking for?
Kirk, what tang sight is this on your rifle?

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:50 pm

Of the lollipop tang sights (Lyman and Marbles), the Marbles Flexible wins by a pretty fair margin in my book.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:09 pm

While the windage adjustable Marbles are handy, the simplicity of the Lyman usually gets my money. And, IIRC, the Lyman preceded the Marbles into the marketplace. Just make sure your choice accepts threaded discs for aperture size options.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:21 pm

Griff, not all Marbles have windange - in fact, none of mine do. They are equally as simple as the Lymans but they tend to be a bit less wobbly. OLD Marbles and OLD Lymans beat the new mades ones all hollow.

Here is one on my '94.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Aug 29, 2014 9:35 pm

casastahle wrote: Kirk, what tang sight is this on your rifle?

It is an older original Lyman with the fine knurling. I don't recall the number, but it is from that era.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:28 am

This thread has been the best...I've always been interested in the .38-40...thank you all for sharing... :)

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 5:37 am

That is good news casastahle! Sounds like you can get a tang sight on the old girl. I can tell you tang sights have helped me with these 55yr. old eyes.One of my friends uses the Idea w30wcf suggest. And his shooting with open sights has improved !,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:20 am

Dusty Texian wrote:That is good news casastahle! Sounds like you can get a tang sight on the old girl. I can tell you tang sights have helped me with these 55yr. old eyes.One of my friends uses the Idea w30wcf suggest. And his shooting with open sights has improved !,,,,DT

I'm only a couple years behind ya in the age department Dusty.
I've been very near sighted since 4th grade.
With glasses or contact lenses I was always able to shoot open sights with no problem over all those years.
At about 44 years old things drastically changed in the vision department.
I noticed I could no longer focus the target, front sight and rear sight all together anymore.
One of those items was always blurred and hard to see.
Unfortunately having to go to progressive lenses made this even worse.
The words of my long gone grandfather come back to me today with much more meaning and clarity.
"You can't hit what you can't see no matter how good or expensive the gun is"

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 11:41 am

Hence the popularity of CAS among older shooters. Not only did we grow up w/the Duke, Gene, Hoppy & Roy, but those big, close targets mean we just find that front sight, put it over that fuzzy black shape and pull the trigger!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 4:18 pm

Griff wrote:Hence the popularity of CAS among older shooters. Not only did we grow up w/the Duke, Gene, Hoppy & Roy, but those big, close targets mean we just find that front sight, put it over that fuzzy black shape and pull the trigger!

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Sat Aug 30, 2014 9:56 pm

casastahle wrote:Awww yes!
What greeted me at the mail box today.
50 unfired Shiny new brass Winchester brand 38-40's
These will be carefully loaded and made my dedicated hunting loads.
Started the first step, flaring the neck.
Also in the picture is my first attempt at a homemade ammo. box.

Be sure to check for case mouth burrs. Usually I have to lightly inside/outside chamfer brand new cases before using.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Aug 31, 2014 10:21 pm

Got one.
Marbles W2.
Hope it's the right one for the 73.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 6:37 am

very good choice. Congratulations.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:49 am

BrentD wrote:very good choice. Congratulations.

Thanks Brent

These little accessories sure don't come cheap.
Especially these older ones.
This one is supposedly like new, possibly never used condition.
Will see.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 7:52 am

Yes, they are expensive but they are worth every penny. I would love to find an M6 in one of these. The new made Marbles can't hold a candle to the old ones for quality.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:05 am

+1 Brent,
I'd say that's true for most products we buy in today's disposable world.
Anytime I possibly can, I'll spend a little more and purchase vintage.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 9:36 am

I think there are tons of things that are made better today. Rifle scopes for instance, and lots of firearms (maybe not Marlins and Winchesters unfortunately). And cars, canoes, and airplanes are a few that are incredibly better than they used to be. But Marbles sights are not one of them.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Mon Sep 01, 2014 4:05 pm

Very nice tang sight ! Think you are going to like it. ,,,,,DT

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:38 am

Range report with the new tang sight installed and dialed in.
This 5 shot group was done in a real world deer hunting style.
Butt on the ground, back against a post, elbows on the knees.
5 shots one right after the other, no barrel swabbing between shots.
Used my hand cast soft lead bullets, cast from an antique Winchester mold.
Hand loaded with Goex 3F black powder in an antique Winchester loading tool.
I'm thinking this old gal is ready to hunt.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 5:41 pm

Very nice casastahle ! Looks like you and your equipment are ready for a vintage style hunt. Good Luck,,,,,,DT

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:52 pm

Mike now you just need a deer in front of that 73!
I for one have enjoyed this all the way, thanks every one!!!

ollogger

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 11:49 pm

ollogger wrote:Mike now you just need a deer in front of that 73!
I for one have enjoyed this all the way, thanks every one!!!

ollogger

AGAIN, this whole thread has been great, learned allot...can't wait to see the "after action" photos of this year's deer hunt... :)

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Sep 20, 2014 5:10 am

1892 wrote:
ollogger wrote:Mike now you just need a deer in front of that 73!
I for one have enjoyed this all the way, thanks every one!!!

ollogger
AGAIN, this whole thread has been great, learned allot...can't wait to see the "after action" photos of this year's deer hunt...

That indeed would be the icing on the cake.
The Big Guy upstairs will have to get heavily involved with putting a deer at the right place.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 8:01 am

casastahle wrote:Range report with the new tang sight installed and dialed in.
This 5 shot group was done in a real world deer hunting style.
Butt on the ground, back against a post, elbows on the knees.
5 shots one right after the other, no barrel swabbing between shots.
Used my hand cast soft lead bullets, cast from an antique Winchester mold.
Hand loaded with Goex 3F black powder in an antique Winchester loading tool.
I'm thinking this old gal is ready to hunt.

"I'm thinking this old gal is ready to hunt."
Yes, indeed!

Nice shooting!

w30wcf

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:15 am

I, for one, think you did the right thing by getting an original Marbles for your '73, rather than a modern reproduction, simply because you have an original '73. If you had a modern '73, then if you want top quality, I'd recommend a Montana Vintage Arms tang sight. In general, for original old lever guns, I try to get original tang sights, but for my one modern Browning 1886 SRC, I bought a MVA tang sight. Keep us posted on your hunting. I love to see these old classics bring home the venison.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:52 am

Will do Kirk

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:41 pm

38-40 article.
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt3840.htm

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:06 pm

Another .38-40 article. It's a pretty cool cartridge as far as I'm concerned. Not sure why I like it, but I do.
http://www.starlinebrass.com/articles/The-38-WCF-38-40/

southfork · Post by **southfork** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 3:37 pm

On the old Marbles tang sights, you have to have a threaded-in aperture to screw in the "Lollipop". I learned that the hard way when buying an original Marbles sight online that was described as in "excellent original condition." Anybody have an extra screw-in aperture for an original old marbles tang sight?

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:27 pm

I think you can find those floating around on ebay as I recall. Or even the current Marbles company can sell you one. I used to know where to find them but I've forgotten. I wouldn't mind finding one of the hunting apertures. Had one and lost it.

Brent

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Jan 25, 2015 5:21 pm

Latest homemade box and a fresh batch of authentic holy black .38 wcf's to fill it.

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 6:25 pm

Southfork I have purchased a replacement aperture from these folks before with good quality and fast service.

http://www.aperturesnmore.com/category.sc?categoryId=31

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Mon Jan 26, 2015 7:56 pm

Not exactly on topic but, anyone ever seen this sight?

http://homesteadparts.com/shopcart/pid_1920.htm

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 8:22 pm

.38 WCF loaded with a full house 40 grains of 3F Goex.
Figured out the little procedure of how to do it.
Time consuming yes.
But worth it for a box of deer hunting rounds.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Wed Jan 28, 2015 10:06 pm

Yours are prettier than mine. I have only 34 gr of Swiss 1.5 fg in them. How did you get 40? I have a mild amount of compression but another 6 grs would take a bit more compression than I think would be doable - maybe.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:40 am

Brent,
It's actually very easy to get 40 grains of 3F Goex in those cases without crushing the powder at all.
My process:

1. Set the powder measurer at 20 grains.

2. Dump the powder from the powder measurer into the scale pan and weigh it in grains and adjust the amount of powder as necessary to get a true 20 grains of BP. I actually dialed it right in at 20.2 grains.

3. (Drop tube is a must have to do this) very slowly drop that 20 grains down the drop tube into a clean primed empty case.

4. Take the case with the now settled 20 grains of Bp in it to the press, and press, don't crush it. you'll get the feel of it.

5. Repeat the above steps for the second 20 grains of BP.

6. Push the lubed 183 grain lead pill into the neck by hand. It will seat just a hair past the second grease groove. clean off any excess lube from the bullet & case. drop it in the hand press and finish the pressing process.

I actually have a total of between 40.4 to 40.6 grains of 3F in each of those rounds.
I'm anxious to run these over the chronograph.
My 38 Grain loads of Goex 3F averaged about 1,260 FPS.
I'm thinking I will get about 1,300 FPS with these.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 9:24 am

Double compression is a deal killer for me. But if it works for you, then go for it. Compressing in a bottleneck case, even a mild one like this, rarely brings on great accuracy. However, you won't know until you try so I'll be interested in the results.

Your 38 gr load, or even my 34 gr load will kill any deer on the continent at 100 yds though.

Brent

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:26 am

BrentD wrote:Double compression is a deal killer for me. But if it works for you, then go for it. Compressing in a bottleneck case, even a mild one like this, rarely brings on great accuracy. However, you won't know until you try so I'll be interested in the results.

Your 38 gr load, or even my 34 gr load will kill any deer on the continent at 100 yds though.

Brent

I'm definitely not trying to sell this as a right way of hand loading ammo.
You asked how I was getting 40 grains in those little brass shells.
You're very right, accuracy could turnout to totally suck.

I'm just a guy having a pile of fun over the winter months playing with BP
and old casting & loading tools.

"Your 38 gr load, or even my 34 gr load will kill any deer on the continent at 100 yds though."
Very true and definitely on my bucket list.
The early archery season has been taking care of my deer tags of late. (Not a bad thing

)

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 10:34 am

It is right if it works. That's all that counts. I do some pretty ridiculous stuff for blackpowder cartridge and muzzleloading target rifles, because it works. I've done double compression and even used cartridge extension tubes to get even more powder in the case for even more compression. They never worked out well for me. Even in straight cases. The .38-40 is, a lot smaller though so maybe that will be different. I'm anxious to hear how it turns out.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Jan 29, 2015 12:21 pm

BrentD wrote:It is right if it works. That's all that counts. I do some pretty ridiculous stuff for blackpowder cartridge and muzzleloading target rifles, because it works. I've done double compression and even used cartridge extension tubes to get even more powder in the case for even more compression. They never worked out well for me. Even in straight cases. The .38-40 is, a lot smaller though so maybe that will be different. I'm anxious to hear how it turns out.

I will indeed let you know how it goes.
Thanks for your interest lever brother Brent

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:32 pm

Good work on that reloading. I'll be interested in the velocity with that 40 grains.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Jan 31, 2015 7:56 am

I'll get to the range with the chronograph after the snow goes away and these single digit Temp's get back into the 60's.

I only made those 5 pictured loaded with 40 grains.
Think I'll crank out 5 or so more yet.
I don't want to make to many just in case they don't fly well.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:44 am

KirkD wrote:Good work on that reloading. I'll be interested in the velocity with that 40 grains.

I now have 15 full house test rounds

rbertalotto · Post by **rbertalotto** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:50 am

Dump the powder from the powder measurer into the scale pan and weigh it in grains and adjust the amount of powder as necessary to get a true 20 grains of BP. I actually dialed it right in at 20.2 grains.

Are you weighing 40g rather than 40g volume? Interesting. Did you compare 40g weight to 40g volume? I might have to look at this and see how close they are.

38-40 is easily my favorite round. I have a number of vintage and reproduction rifles and a few revolvers in this chambering.

For Black Powder I simply load as much FFF as I can fit using a 30" drop tube and then compress the powder about 1/16" with the bullet. Too much compression will swell my Starline brass where it won't fit a couple of my revolvers.

There are a few articles on my web site about 38-40 rifles I've rehabed and one article on how to take the WOBBLE out of a Marbles / Lyman tang sight.

http://rvbprecision.com/table-of-contents

Great thread....Thanks for sharing!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:13 pm

"Are you weighing 40g rather than 40g volume? Interesting. Did you compare 40g weight to 40g volume? I might have to look at this and see how close they are."

Yes. Yes. And very very close.
Make sure your digital scale is set to grains.

Think about it, if you tap the side of your volume measuring device say set at 50 grains as you're filling it, you're going to get more than 50 grains of powder in it.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 12:17 pm

Thanks for the website Roy

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:08 pm

Actually, FFg sporting gunpowder, is anomalous in that, the volume measure is almost exactly the weight. I don't know the actual history about it... but... original black powder volume measures were scaled such that when using 2F powder, the volume measurement in grains is equal to that number in weight. With 3F, grains being somewhat smaller in size, ergo a bit more compact, your volume measure will give you a heavier charge (by weight), and if measured by weight, a slightly lighter charge...

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 1:53 pm

Griff wrote:Actually, FFg sporting gunpowder, is anomalous in that, the volume measure is almost exactly the weight. I don't know the actual history about it... but... original black powder volume measures were scaled such that when using 2F powder, the volume measurement in grains is equal to that number in weight. With 3F, grains being somewhat smaller in size, ergo a bit more compact, your volume measure will give you a heavier charge (by weight), and if measured by weight, a slightly lighter charge...

Not to draw too fine a point on it here, but actually, the density of 3 f and 1f are pretty much the same. 1 lb of each comes in the same size can and each is just about as full as the other. The bigger spaces between the grains of 1 f are compensated for by there being fewer spaces in total relative to 3f. This same principle is why a shotshell reloading bushing for 1 ounce of #8s is the same bushing as for 1 ounce of #4s. ergo, one 1 ton of pea gravel fills my pick-up's bed just as full as 1 ton of river-stone.

Where one gets into trouble is when sizes of shot (or granulations of powder) are mixed. Then densities will increase as the small grains fill in a substantial amount of the space between the larger grains. Mixing granulations and measuring by volume can lead to disaster.

And that's enough geometry for today.

Brent

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:38 pm

Powder measure set at 40 grains.

Measure filled, no taping & topping off.

Actual weight in grains.

Same measure setting, but powder taped down and topped off (settled).

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 4:47 pm

Variance, may be higher in your 3 fg powder than the 2 fg powder, or if they are from different batches, the batch producing the 3f might be denser at granulations; goex is notorious for that. Or it could easily be both. Until you measure grain sizes you won't know.