A grab bag - M1886, 475 Turnbull, tang sights & cast bullets

[Naphtali]

I have a friend who will be receiving from Doug Turnbull in a few weeks a USRAC/Winchester M1886 takedown rifle in 475 Turnbull. I am delaying making a decision on having mine converted until I take a look at what his 475 does.

Can 475 Turnbull brass be made by fire forming Winchester 348 WCF brass -- that is, will case be correctly dimensioned rather than shorter than it should be?
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I am aware of three methods to enhance the ability of hard cast bullets to have controlled expansion: Veral's method of casting-welding a hard base to a soft precast nose; hollow pointing; and differentially heat treating a homogenous bullet to have softer nose.

Among the methods to obtain controlled expansion from hard cast bullets, does one method stand above the others? Is there a reliable method I omitted?
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Were the USRAC/Winchester M1886 firing mechanism to be converted to non-rebounding hammer, without tang safety, and with one-piece firing pin, would hammer down on loaded chamber be safe? Is the firing pin an inertia one like the M1911 pistol?
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I've never seen a tang sight on a traditional lever action actually used. Would a tang sight for a M1886 be hit by the rear of the breech bolt during the reloading cycle? Would heavy recoil cause the tang sight to hit my spectacles?
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Who bead blasts and electroless nickels springs? The company I used to use for the service is no longer in business.

[Griff]

I can only answer two of your questions:

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Were the USRAC/Winchester M1886 firing mechanism to be converted to non-rebounding hammer, without tang safety, and with one-piece firing pin, would hammer down on loaded chamber be safe?

No.

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I've never seen a tang sight on a traditional lever action actually used. Would a tang sight for a M1886 be hit by the rear of the breech bolt during the reloading cycle? Would heavy recoil cause the tang sight to hit my spectacles?

IIRC, an 1886 tang sight sits to the rear of the tang, just forward of the stock screw. This 1886 Reproduction Tang Sight doesn't seem to. It has to sit back some to not be hit by the bolt, but my buddies is between the ears when the bolt is at its rearmost. Sorrt I don't have a pic. Here's mine on my 94:


As far as hitting your glasses, that I couldn't answer, depends on your cheek position and grip. Mine's farther back than needed, but doesn't get into my glasses, niether does his '86.

[Malamute]

Properly done, a conversion to non-rebounding would use a half cock Browning 86 hammer, or have the half cock notch in the Winchester hammer cut to give you a true half cock. Best to carry them chamber empty until expecting to shoot (I carry mine in Grizzly country this way all the time), but I wouldnt carry one hammer down on a loaded chamber in any event. The original Winchesters had a firing pin that was longer than the bolt, meaning it stuck out the bolt face when the hammer was down.

[Gun Smith]

There were two different tang sight configurations available for the Winchester 1873, 76, 86, 92 lines. The tang sights either had the post offset to to front of the sight base or had the tang sight post in the middle of the base.
The long bolt on the M.86 needs the center post sight, and it's ears do straddle the the tang sight post. It may also be used on the other models, but it may not adjust low enough on the M.92 requiring a higher front sight.
In all models except the M.73 the tang sight uses the rear tang(stock) screw for the rear mounting point. The M.73 had two holes for the sight, plus the tang screw.
In some cases a different front sight may be needed with a peep because the receiver can distort the peep apperture view if it is too low causing the gun to shoot high. Raising the peep up to clear the receiver requires a higher front sight.

[Naphtali]

Great stuff here. Thanks, guys.

I've been informed Starline is making 475 brass for Doug Turnbull. I just queried Starline to identify whether it will be on their product list now.
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I have tang sight information overload. I have semipistol grip 1886 and full pistol grip M71. I think I read that there were original M1886 tang sights that mount sufficiently rearward on tang to not be touched by bolt's cycle. And whether the tang sight tattoos me will depend upon how much of a stock crawler I am?

So to break the information into segments: Please identify currently made tang sights, if any, that can be [custom??] mounted to allow clearance for bolt cycle while not being horizontally offset from line of bore?

Regarding tattooing spectacles, your collective opinion is: Good luck.

[runfiverun]

i got your cast bullet question

you donot want "controlled expansion" with cast bullets.
you are already using a big enough hole.
what you want is a flat meplat [nose] and enough weight
to push the bullet all the way through the animal in a straight line.
if your bullet up-sets some along the way that is okay.
you dont want a super hard ,super square bullet either.
and if youu are going to shoot cast you dont really need all
the high velocity as the weight will do the trick.
this is where the tang site comes in it has the height adjustments to get you out there.
an open site will do for 100 yds or so and after that you need the tang.

[Pete44ru]

And whether the tang sight tattoos me will depend upon how much of a stock crawler I am? - Exactly

Please identify currently made tang sights, if any, that can be [custom?NO ] mounted to allow clearance for bolt cycle while not being horizontally offset from line of bore? -

Marble's # 009810

[Gun Smith]

Hi naphtali, My response may not have been clear enough. I sometimes do that. The two US companies that are currently making tang sights are Lyman and Marbles. When I said the bolt ears straddle the post I meant they do not touch it. It stays in place between shots as it should. If you crawl the stock, or are shooting up hill, you need to keep your thumb alongside the stock since the tang does keep your thumb to the rear and it can bump your nose if you are not careful. And a hard recoil caliber can throw the post against your glasses unless you hold back a bit. Both the current sights have to be centered on the top of the tang so as not to be bumped by the sides of the bolt. This may mean off setting the front sight if your barrel throws you bullets horizontially. Marbles is fully adjustable for windage and elevation, Lyman is elevation only. Marbles is about $120.00. Since you need to keep the post centered, I only use the Lyman (about $76.00) anyway. A nice accessory is a dovetail blank (about $6.00) to fill the barrel slot where the old sight was.

[Naphtali]

More great stuff.

runfiverun: Would I be able to use -- that is, feed correctly while having acceptably accuracy -- LBT WFN bullets? I have an LBT 340-grain .476 WFN GC mold that I use in 480 Ruger and 475 Linebaugh. While this particular bullet is too light for 475 Turnbull, Veral (LBT) can make a similar bullet mold drop 440-465-grain bullets. A bullet of this weight @ 1700-1750 fps meets my needs.

[crs]

Here is a pic of a Win/Miroku 1886 .45-90 with Marbles tang sight. It works well and shoots well.
The only thing that I had to learn is to lay my thumb along side the sight and NOT wrap it over the tang behind the sight base - because? Heavy loads will make your thumb "bump" your nose; best to avoid that.

[buckeyeshooter]

I suppose there is absolutely nothing wrong with the 475 turnbull. But if I were going to have Turnbull rechamber an 1886 I would look real hard at the 50-110 or 50 alaskan. Componets are readily available in 50 caliber and my bet is that these two will do more than the 475 chambering.

[Pete44ru]

[A nice accessory is a dovetail blank (about $6.00) to fill the barrel slot where the old sight was.]

Given the caliber/intended usage, you might want to instead consider replacing the rear barrel sight with a folder, for more versatility.

The barrel sight may then be zeroed for short range shots, then folded down & the tanger then used when a long(er) range shot presents itself.

[crs]

+1 for the folding rear barrel sight. Mine is a Marbles and works well.
No pic just now, but the time the camera and guns get together, I will take one.

[Grizzly Adams]

Personally, I would not use a tang sight on a 475 anything! Tang sights works fine for "traditional" loads in the 1886. Start pushing the envelope, and your gonna be wearing that sight.

FWIW, I would mount a receiver sight on the 475 Turnbull.

[Grizz]

I hate folding barrel sights. Here's why:

I was walking one of my favorite game trails near the timber break at alpine level. There was bear sign around, and being overly imaginative every rock, stump, and moss covered log lying in shadow looked like a bear to me. When I raised my rifle to my shoulder and set the bead on the most suspicious stump, THERE WAS NO REAR SIGHT.... it had folded itself flat.

Now you know why I hate folding rear sights.

[crs]

Come on Grizz, finish your story !
Did the bear eat you or what?

[Naphtali]

I called Starline. They have furnished a 50-110 basic case with 475 Turnbull head stamp to Mr. Turnbull. He is having all additional operations to manufacture 475 Turnbull ammunition done -- probably by a local custom ammunition manufacturer.

Jack Monteith has pointed me toward a web site having Powley's Computer online, allowing me to create safe 50 Express handloads. So while I am inclined to appreciate the artistry of the 475 Turnbull rifle, I think I'll acquire a 50 Express. Since I use cast bullets, actual cost of shooting will be significantly lower were I to do so. This probably offsets the additional cost of the .50-calber conversion. Why would cost of conversion increase as bore size increases? Process is the same.
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Grizz and Grizzly Adams make cogent points. I hadn't considered inadvertently collapsing Marble's sight stem. And the recoil thing . . .

I can confirm Marble's peep sight stem will not impinge upon bolt travel. That's good. And Marble's makes a sight [base??] that is intended to mount on USRAC/Winchester M1886 rifles with tang safeties. I assume the tang safety is disabled? And the slot for safety slide is concealed by sight's base?

[TedH]

Naphtali,

Sent you a PM.

[crs]

NAPTHALI;
MARBLES WEB SITE SHOW TWO TANG SIGHTS FOR THE 1886 - ONE WITHOUT THE TANG SAFETY AND ONE FOR GUNS WITH THE TANG SAFETY (LIKE MY 1886 ). ON MINE THE FORWARD HOLE MUST BE D AND T, BUT THAT IS ALL.