Bullets for the .348 WCF

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:10 pm

On tuesday I paid the deposit for a Winchester Mod 71 standard rifle, 1947 vintage. The last evenings I have browsed this forum for information about good loads for it to use on moose. There ws a lot of good reading about the cartridge! Most forists seem to prefer heavy bullets as the Barnes Original or the Hawk, both 250 grs, and obviously that would be a safe and good choice. However, there are some other heavy bullets out there, as the Kodiak 250 grs and the Hawk 270 grs. Then there are some cast alternatives too.

Your comments are welcome - I am especially interested about experience of the Hawk 270 grs.

Pete

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:30 pm

A 250 grain load at 2,300 fps is as near perfect a load as one could want for heavy non-dangerous game. This load's balance of bullet weight and velocity will likely produce the outstanding results. From there, as you go up in weight you will come down in velocity. And because the M71's overall cartridge length cannot be exceeded, you will give up some powder space. Anyway, that's my two cents - given without ever loading the 270 grain Hawk Bullet.

For what it's worth, if I ever chase a bull elk again, I'll likely load my M71 with either a Hawk or Barnes 250 grain bullet or a Barnes 220 X-Bullet. With either one I will be completely confident that the cartridge will get the job done.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:52 pm

OS, I have been loading the hornady 200 gr for elk and deer, shoots thru deer any direction on elk I have gotten 30+" penetration and on broadside lung shots it goes thru&thru. My 2 loads are 53 gr IMR4895 for 2450 fps and 62 gr AA4350 for 2520 fps out of a B71 24" bbl. Iam still working up a load with RE 17. I also have loaded a Beartooth 245 gr cast with 55 gr AA4350. RE 17 is not temp sensitive you can use IMR4350 load data to work up a load it is the same burn rate with more velocity. danny

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:50 pm

Thanks for your inputs! Having read your postings, I think I will go with the Barnes 250 grs for moose, as they are heavy and penetrate well. However, Big Sky's experience of Hornady's 200-grainer are really impressing, and I will get some boxes of it to evaluate. Indeed they would be fine for roe deer and smaller pigs.

4350 is a fine powder. Some years ago I got a canister from a friend, and managed to get really accurate loads with a 8mm Mauser. American powders are hard to get here, but usually Norma 203-B is a good substitute.

Pete

86er · Post by **86er** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:55 pm

We've had the privilege of helping Grizzly Cartridge work up their load with the 250 gr Kodiak bullet. Red deer, RM elk, R elk, whitetail deer, black bear, water buffalo and watusi were shot with it at ranges up to 130 yards. The bullets always expanded (based on exit hole exam and recovered bullets) to around the .600's, recovered bullets retained 88% weight on average and they retained their mushroom shape without overlapping, seperating or deforming. Penetration was very good with even 25 in on a water buffalo at 57 yards. I cannot speak of other bullets except to say that they are somewhat easier to get. However, I can endorse the 250 gr Kodiak for all around use. Of note, Bill Huber at Swift just came out with a Swift A-Frame for the 348 that is proving to be excellent in limited field testing so far. Best of luck!

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:10 pm

86er wrote:Of note, Bill Huber at Swift just came out with a Swift A-Frame for the 348 that is proving to be excellent in limited field testing so far. Best of luck!

OMG, I thought I'd never see an A-frame in .348.

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 1:04 am

I shot a number of moose in Alaska with the Winchester factory 200 grain Silvertip ammo. All of them were dead before God got the news. Just saying.....

Ravenman · Post by **Ravenman** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:24 am

Pete - Norma N204 works nearly as IMR 4350 and you can working up loads with the IMR 4350 loading data.

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:49 am

Thanks to all!

Yesterday I ordered 50 Barnes 250 grs and 50 WW cases - the dealer didn't have more in stock, but that will be a beginning. I'll do some test shooting, and if the bullets proof to be good, I'll go on with them. Otherwise, I will try to get the Kodiaks - 86er's testing seems to promise a bit.

BTW - factory ammo would be almost impossible to get here. Supposedly there can be less than 100 M71:s here, although we are nearly a half million hunters and shootists in the country. Leverguns are scarce in the swedish forests.

Pete

2X22 · Post by **2X22** » Sat Nov 19, 2011 2:30 pm

My 1936 version really likes a 250gr Barnes and 58grs of AA3100. Not real fast, about 2150fps if I remember right, but accuracy is fantastic. I've never had an elk withstand it.

2x22

pharmseller · Post by **pharmseller** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:07 am

Old Shatterhand wrote:Thanks to all!

Yesterday I ordered 50 Barnes 250 grs and 50 WW cases - the dealer didn't have more in stock, but that will be a beginning. I'll do some test shooting, and if the bullets proof to be good, I'll go on with them. Otherwise, I will try to get the Kodiaks - 86er's testing seems to promise a bit.

BTW - factory ammo would be almost impossible to get here. Supposedly there can be less than 100 M71:s here, although we are nearly a half million hunters and shootists in the country. Leverguns are scarce in the swedish forests.

Pete

I wonder what the shipping would be to Sweden?

http://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewt ... =2&t=38233

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:25 am

pharmseller wrote:I wonder what the shipping would be to Sweden?

http://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewt ... =2&t=38233

Thanks for your offer! Shipping would be expensive indeed, and to that would be added costs for permits for export and imports, as well as custom tarifs and VAT. Supposedly it will at the very end cost as much as I gave for the rifle. I must politely say "no thanks".

Pete

victor · Post by **victor** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 11:51 am

I see there's a write up on the.348 in Decembers 2011 issue of Handloader.FYI.

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 2:58 pm

victor wrote:I see there's a write up on the.348 in Decembers 2011 issue of Handloader.FYI.

Thanks! A digital subscription with Handloader, Rifle and Successful Hunter costs about $18, and can be paid by Visa. I will do it!

Pete

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:13 pm

Grizzly Adams wrote:I shot a number of moose in Alaska with the Winchester factory 200 grain Silvertip ammo. All of them were dead before God got the news. Just saying.....

The .348WCF was designed around the 200gr. bullet for Alaska including big bears. I guess they evolved along way since 1936

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 3:50 pm

OS what are the rules about shipping empty brass & bullets to Sweden, special permits & licenses ? danny

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:36 pm

BigSky56 wrote:OS what are the rules about shipping empty brass & bullets to Sweden, special permits & licenses ? danny

There are not any problems to get that stuff into Sweden - I can import a truckload without restrictions. The problem is to get it out of the US. A exportation licence is required, and costs $250. Confer http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/inor.html ! However, there are some firms, who have general exportation permits, where some brass and bullets can be purchased.

Pete

TMair · Post by **TMair** » Sun Nov 20, 2011 4:53 pm

Old Shatterhand wrote:
BigSky56 wrote:OS what are the rules about shipping empty brass & bullets to Sweden, special permits & licenses ? danny
There are not any problems to get that stuff into Sweden - I can import a truckload without restrictions. The problem is to get it out of the US. A exportation licence is required, and costs $250. Confer http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/inor.html ! However, there are some firms, who have general exportation permits, where some brass and bullets can be purchased.

Pete

I ship product to Australia all the time, I have no permit, or exportation licence, not sure if it would be different to Sweden, I have also shipped to Ireland, Canada, and Germany...Just sayin
Terry

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:26 am

victor wrote:I see there's a write up on the.348 in Decembers 2011 issue of Handloader.FYI.

Unfortunatley is wasn't worth the time it took to read. Barsness wrote it and I thought it would be good, but it was nothing but filler - he acquired a 348 and gives a little 348 history and then says he'll take it hunting ( that's it - you can send me $4.99 and be thankful I just saved you 30 minutes). Now we'll have to wait another decade before another 348 Winchester article is published.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 12:16 pm

Idiot wrote:
victor wrote:I see there's a write up on the.348 in Decembers 2011 issue of Handloader.FYI.
Unfortunatley is wasn't worth the time it took to read. Barsness wrote it and I thought it would be good, but it was nothing but filler - he acquired a 348 and gives a little 348 history and then says he'll take it hunting ( that's it - you can send me $4.99 and be thankful I just saved you 30 minutes). Now we'll have to wait another decade before another 348 Winchester article is published.

So true!

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:45 pm

Idiot wrote:
victor wrote:I see there's a write up on the.348 in Decembers 2011 issue of Handloader.FYI.
Unfortunatley is wasn't worth the time it took to read. Barsness wrote it and I thought it would be good, but it was nothing but filler - he acquired a 348 and gives a little 348 history and then says he'll take it hunting ( that's it - you can send me $4.99 and be thankful I just saved you 30 minutes). Now we'll have to wait another decade before another 348 Winchester article is published.

I too was excited to see that article in there until I read it. Apparently, since gun writers of old didn't like the .348 for whatever reason, Barsness has decided to stick to that line of thinking. It's almost as if he's dreading the fact that he has to take it on a hunt.

bcboy · Post by **bcboy** » Mon Nov 21, 2011 4:38 pm

Old Shatterhand wrote:
BigSky56 wrote:OS what are the rules about shipping empty brass & bullets to Sweden, special permits & licenses ? danny
There are not any problems to get that stuff into Sweden - I can import a truckload without restrictions. The problem is to get it out of the US. A exportation licence is required, and costs $250. Confer http://www.custombrassandbullets.com/inor.html ! However, there are some firms, who have general exportation permits, where some brass and bullets can be purchased.

Pete

Try Canada. I have had no problems ordering 348 bullets and brass in canada,, this sat i went to a gun show 45$ for 200 gr hornadys and there was lots of new Win brass..Wholesale sports is our big on-line retailer, they usually have barnes 200 org and 250 gr.org in stock
My relatives live in Gottenburg were just here for a visit..

ps. we just got buffalo bore distribitor up here.. 250 grs.. not sure Ill throw them down the throat of my win, but maybe a box in my browning 71 Anyone shoot these??

Dave

Old Shatterhand · Post by **Old Shatterhand** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 12:24 pm

Bullets from Barnes, Hornady et c. can be bought here i Europe, and not all dealers are overly greedy. www.vapex.se , www.wiederladen-alzey.de

F.

RKrodle · Post by **RKrodle** » Tue Nov 22, 2011 5:56 pm

Woodleigh also makes a 250gr bullet. I have a box of them but haven't gotten around to loading and testing yet.

http://www.woodleighbullets.com.au/bull ... /338q-375q

450 Fuller · Post by **450 Fuller** » Sat Jul 06, 2024 4:57 pm

While this is an older thread, it provides earlier and current valuable information for the .348 WCF cartridge-which is still quite popular.
All of my (5) Model 71s are pre-War Winchesters, though I have owned Browning versions, which are accurate.
The M-71s and the 348 cartridge are important enough to keep alive-and they are tough enough to last a long time.

Current bullet offerings as of Summer, 2024:

Hawk, Fury of Michigan, and Swift Bullets in Kansas. Quality Cartridge in MD. There are supplies not completely dried up in small gun shops of Hornady 200 gr bullets.
Hawk Bullets formerly in WY is now in NJ, and they will make custom order bullet weight bullets in .348. I have had a supply of 225 gr, 270 gr
and even a handful of 190 gr spitzers with 300 gr small few. The 300 gr turns the 348 Ackley into almost a .405 with better sectional density.

Reloading is really the only way to go now with the 348 WCF to keep your Model 71s rolling along.
Don't forget the Lee Factory Crimp Die-in the .348/M71 with tubular magazine, it REALLY helps.
Good luck-stay safe. Fuller

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Sat Jul 06, 2024 9:54 pm

My Model 71 came to me from the original owner. He was a rancher in Colorado and bought the rifle new in 1937. It is the Deluxe Model and an early one with the long tangs.

His favorite load was the Hi-Speed 150 gr. loading from Winchester. He killed elk and deer with that load for many years. I had some of the original Winchester 150 gr. bullets but never loaded them.

I used the factory 200 gr. SilverTips to take Mule Deer and Coues Whitetail. They were accurate and performed just perfectly.

CowboyTutt · Post by **CowboyTutt** » Sat Jul 06, 2024 10:59 pm

Everyone loves a '71. I'm glad some bullets are still available in .348, I had thought they had pretty much dried up.
-Tutt

450 Fuller · Post by **450 Fuller** » Sun Jul 07, 2024 4:54 am

The Swift 200 gr .348 bullets are tough and very well made. They come 50 bullets to a box, @ $2.00 per bullet.
Hawk and Fury Bullets are approximately half that. Grizzly Ammunition Co also advertises loaded ammunition
in at least two bullet offerings including a bonded core 200 gr. They appeared out-of-stock at this time.

For those that do not reload their cartridges for the .348 Model 71, loaded W-W or Remington boxes turn up in these same
small gun shops, 20 to a box, occasionally. My largest white tail 8-pt buck was taken with one Silvertip W-W 200 gr cartridge.
The Model 71 is a very well balanced lever action rifle as made- chambered in 348 WCF. Extra safeties and modified hammers
are not needed and detract from the original design. Early Winchesters and the Browning do not have that unnecessary virus.

Drawdown · Post by **Drawdown** » Sun Jul 07, 2024 7:36 am

The Barnes Original are available right now at Midway, I believe 220gr & 250gr

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Sun Jul 07, 2024 1:34 pm

Drawdown wrote: ↑Sun Jul 07, 2024 7:36 am The Barnes Original are available right now at Midway, I believe 220gr & 250gr

I saw that and grabbed a couple of boxes of the 250's. I also got 200 of the Fury 220 grain bullets a couple of months back. I haven't loaded any yet, but they look like they will perform well ... big meplat.

I haven't seen the Swift bullets in some time. I still have a couple of unopened bags of Winchester brass, but more importantly, I still also have a couple of cases of factory 200 grain SilverTips. I probably don't have enough years left in me to shoot up all of that stuff. But it was so hard to come by, even years ago, that I grabbed it while I could.

Drawdown · Post by **Drawdown** » Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:21 pm

I ordered 3 more 50ct boxes of the Barnes Original 190gr for my 30-30 this morning. I've come to conclusion that this is going to be my best bullet and load in my Mod 64, and I'm planning to finally try bear hunting this year. I have no idea about Barnes and their production schedule for the future on this bullet, so regardless, that'll make me 4 boxes stock, and 50rds already loaded. Haven't proved em on game yet, but I'm not doubting them whatsoever!
But as too the Mod71, I've wanted one long long time! JimT posted those for sale at Cabelas while back, and I'm still thinking I should've jumped on one! It ain't just money, but my age, $yes, but how much use I'd really get out of it? My health become an issue for past several years already, and as many on here have testified already, packing an 8.5lb Mod71 vs my 6.5lb Mod 64 +^- Hmm, I believe I done got all I need! After all, I've yet to find a rifle that pleases me any more than my Mod64! I've been getting a Rem 700 270Win ready lately, already got my 30-06 ready, both scoped??? Come November, which one? My eyes are still as good as last year!

JimT · Post by **JimT** » Mon Jul 08, 2024 2:52 pm

Drawdown wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:21 pm But as too the Mod71, I've wanted one long long time! JimT posted those for sale at Cabelas while back, and I'm still thinking I should've jumped on one! It ain't just money, but my age, $yes, but how much use I'd really get out of it? .....................

There are 8 listed now, one for less than $2K ...

https://www.cabelas.com/l/used-guns#f-t ... tion=Lever

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Mon Jul 08, 2024 3:07 pm

Drawdown wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:21 pm ....but my age, $yes, but how much use I'd really get out of it? My health become an issue for past several years already, and as many on here have testified already, packing an 8.5lb Mod71 vs my 6.5lb Mod 64 +^- Hmm, I believe I done got all I need! After all, I've yet to find a rifle that pleases me any more than my Mod64! I've been getting a Rem 700 270Win ready lately, already got my 30-06 ready, both scoped??? Come November, which one? My eyes are still as good as last year!

At YOUR age!? A spring chicken! Got 35 years ahead of you!
And you know what they say...whoever dies with the most money, still dies. Spend it so the kids don't fight over it.

Drawdown · Post by **Drawdown** » Mon Jul 08, 2024 3:52 pm

vancelw wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 3:07 pm
Drawdown wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:21 pm ....but my age, $yes, but how much use I'd really get out of it? My health become an issue for past several years already, and as many on here have testified already, packing an 8.5lb Mod71 vs my 6.5lb Mod 64 +^- Hmm, I believe I done got all I need! After all, I've yet to find a rifle that pleases me any more than my Mod64! I've been getting a Rem 700 270Win ready lately, already got my 30-06 ready, both scoped??? Come November, which one? My eyes are still as good as last year!
At YOUR age!? A spring chicken! Got 35 years ahead of you!
And you know what they say...whoever dies with the most money, still dies. Spend it so the kids don't fight over it.

I Heard Dat! I've never bought nothing over the air! But last 4 guns I've bought in only few years? Well they popped up and I just had to have em! If a decent Mid71 showed up near my hands? In all honesty, I'd say you'd have to fight me to get it back! So, who knows, maybe!

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:07 pm

A good cast bullet with a gas check can be driven as fast as a factory 200 grain jacketed. I have one model 71 with over 3K of 220 grain cast. The below pictured original Hensley & Gibbs speciality mould puts out a 250 grainer.

45-70, 33 W.C.F., .405 W.C.F. and the 348. My other mould for the 220 grain is a custom cut 4 cavity. Brass lasts forever if you size them properly. I run the 220’s at 1800.

Drawdown · Post by **Drawdown** » Mon Jul 08, 2024 6:01 pm

JimT wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 2:52 pm
Drawdown wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 1:21 pm But as too the Mod71, I've wanted one long long time! JimT posted those for sale at Cabelas while back, and I'm still thinking I should've jumped on one! It ain't just money, but my age, $yes, but how much use I'd really get out of it? .....................
There are 8 listed now, one for less than $2K ...

https://www.cabelas.com/l/used-guns#f-t ... tion=Lever

Those $2600+ I didn't even consider, but that 1987 Browning Remake for $1600 is very tempting!

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:44 am

Sixgun wrote: ↑Mon Jul 08, 2024 5:07 pm The below pictured original Hensley & Gibbs speciality mould puts out a 250 grainer.

45-70, 33 W.C.F., .405 W.C.F. and the 348. My other mould for the 220 grain is a custom cut 4 cavity. Brass lasts forever if you size them properly. I run the 220’s at 1800.

Wow, that is a cool mould.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Jul 11, 2024 1:04 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote: ↑Thu Jul 11, 2024 8:44 am
Wow, that is a cool mould.

Thanks McNutter….
When I went to gun shows for 50 years I rarely bought any guns, maybe a half dozen………I was always on the prowl for moulds, tang sights, hard to get brass and other things that make the old guns go booooooommmm.——006

FOTIS · Post by **FOTIS** » Sat Jul 13, 2024 8:00 pm

157 Hammer bullets and 58 GR of AA2495. 2930 fps. Devastating and super accurate.

I was told the 200 gr flextips were discontinued as were the 200 flat point.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sun Jul 14, 2024 5:41 am

Another WOW on that mold, Six. What an astonishing combination of bullets for classic calibers!