Fun with numbers. .44 Henry v. .45 Colt

[Scott Tschirhart]

I often wonder if the old .44 Henry Flat really attained the advertised 1200 fps. I’m not sure how the factories measured velocity in those days.

Dave Campbell wrote that the cartridge featured a 216 gr bullet at 1125 fps and I think that’s more realistic. If it did that in a 24 inch barrel, what would that cartridge do out of a 20 inch carbine barrel?

[Scott Tschirhart]

Foot pounds of energy is what we are used to dealing with, but it is not the only way to calculate. It also gives some undue advantages to velocity and I’m not sure it demonstrates the relative power of cast lead bullets at moderate velocities.

John Linebaugh thought that John Taylor’s KO formula worked better. Caliber x bullet weight x velocity divided by 7000.

A .44 Henry Flat would rate a 14.7 KO factor (assuming a .430 bullet at 200 grains and 1200 fps.).

Using Campbell’s numbers we get 14.9 KO

This is a useful point of reference as a .45 ACP hardball round rates at 13.3 KO.

When the .44-40 made the scene with a 200 gr bullet at 1245 fps, it was a pretty good step up at 15.3 KO

My standard.45Colt round (255 gr Hornady Cowboy over 8 grains of Unique) comes out to 13.7 KO and if you use the 270SAA bullet it rates right at 15 KO with the same powder charge.

Shoot the standard 255 gr bullet from a 20 inch barrel and you get a little over 1100 fps and a rating of 18.1 KO.

[JimT]

Muzzle Energy as measured in foot-pounds does not really exist. It's a mathematical figure that is useful in comparing cartridges but it has no application in the real world. If .30-06 Winchester 150 gr. Extreme Point ammo actually developed 2839 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, think what it would do to the 200 pound guy firing the rifle. Newton's Third Law of Motion, speaking of objects in motion, states in part: "To every Action there is always an equal Reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts."

Fire one of those loads into a 25 pound chunk of wood and see if it moves it very much. If there were actually over 2800 foot-pounds of energy that chunk of wood would fly like a tin can hit with a .22 Long Rifle. REMINDER: "foot-pound" = A unit of work equal to the work or energy needed to lift a one-pound weight a distance of one foot against the force of the Earth's gravity.
From: https://www.thefreedictionary.com/foot-pound

The foot-pound force is a unit of work or energy in the engineering and gravitational systems in United States customary and imperial units of measure. It is the energy transferred upon applying a force of one pound-force through a linear displacement of one foot. The corresponding SI unit is the joule.
From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-pound_(energy)

While the mathematical formula is useful in comparing various calibers and bullet weights, it does not really exist. Check out this guy being shot at close range with a .308 NATO round on a vest.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5f1Fo4r4_I

If the .308 actually had all those thousand pounds of muzzle energy it would make a 175 pound man go flying. As well as the shooter! Thus my initial statement that muzzle energy does not exist in the real world.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Exactly. But it’s interesting that we seem to have generally accepted these numbers for some reason.

[JimT]

They have been out there for a long time ... they get quoted and promoted in the gun press ... and very few shooters ever question those things. And these days it is becoming increasingly unpopular to question anything publicly.

[Grizz]

They have been out there for a long time ... they get quoted and promoted in the gun press ... and very few shooters ever question those things. And these days it is becoming increasingly unpopular to question anything publicly.

Jim is it possible that we don't see people bowled over by bullets because the contact area is so small?

Question everything,

[JimT]

Jim is it possible that we don't see people bowled over by bullets because the contact area is so small?
Question everything,

It could be. I am not all that smart but one way to test it is to measure how hard a bullet hits something. Years ago I cut a mesquite limb and took a 48 pound section and hung it on a swivel. I fastened a tape to it so that it could be zeroed and that it would measure exactly how far the log moved. Then I shot it with different loads to see what it would do.

hit2.jpg

Hit.JPG

If you have see people shot you know that there are different reactions and sometimes almost none at all. The same with shooting game. I have shot full length through deer and had different reactions to being hit. But I never had one picked up and blown over.

[Grizz]

Jim is it possible that we don't see people bowled over by bullets because the contact area is so small?
Question everything,

It could be. I am not all that smart but one way to test it is to measure how hard a bullet hits something. Years ago I cut a mesquite limb and took a 48 pound section and hung it on a swivel. I fastened a tape to it so that it could be zeroed and that it would measure exactly how far the log moved. Then I shot it with different loads to see what it would do.

hit2.jpg

Hit.JPG

If you have see people shot you know that there are different reactions and sometimes almost none at all. The same with shooting game. I have shot full length through deer and had different reactions to being hit. But I never had one picked up and blown over.

I've seen hundreds of deer shot, they have different reactions, or none, but as you say they don't get picked up and blown over.

OTOH I shot a stainless steel disk from close range with my 45/70/525 15xx fps load. It was suspended from a branch which broke, and the disk was moved around 4 feet back through the air. I have a video clip of this, but it is too big to post here. I think the soft mass of game is nearly transparent to the shot, compared to the steel gong.

Not even a little scientific, but entertaining to watch.

[JimT]

It is entertaining and sometimes exciting. Try hanging a 50 pound block of steel or iron and see how far it moves.

I remember when I became discouraged with gun writers and started being more discriminatory about who I trusted when I read their stuff. I was 15 and Dad had given me my first .357 Magnum .. a Ruger Blackhawk. It was 1961. I had been reading about Police departments that used the .357 Magnum because it could stop a car engine. So I decided to try it. There was an old '49 or '50 Chevy partially stripped laying out in the desert. I went out and fired one of my super duper .357 loads into the engine block, expecting to break it. When I fired the bullet came back past my ear so fast it would have gone through my head if I happened to be standing 6" more to the right. It was a sudden revelation not to believe everything I read!

[Grizz]

It is entertaining and sometimes exciting. Try hanging a 50 pound block of steel or iron and see how far it moves.

I remember when I became discouraged with gun writers and started being more discriminatory about who I trusted when I read their stuff. I was 15 and Dad had given me my first .357 Magnum .. a Ruger Blackhawk. It was 1961. I had been reading about Police departments that used the .357 Magnum because it could stop a car engine. So I decided to try it. There was an old '49 or '50 Chevy partially stripped laying out in the desert. I went out and fired one of my super duper .357 loads into the engine block, expecting to break it. When I fired the bullet came back past my ear so fast it would have gone through my head if I happened to be standing 6" more to the right. It was a sudden revelation not to believe everything I read!

same here:

Screenshot 2023-07-05 084641-bullet meets cannonball.png

that's a SIXTY pounder. The notes say that's a 45/70/460 cast performance crater . . .

[JimT]

Now that's cool! Ever measure the movement?

[Grizz]

Now that's cool! Ever measure the movement?

I never did try to measure it. I have to correct the post, I found some notes and it's only 60 pounds. My notes say that crater made by a 460Gr Cast Performance bullet. If I find the velocity I'll update.

I shot one at the Sitka gun range with a 338WM. Probably a 250Gr bullet. The cannon ball was sitting on dirt and rolled a quarter turn. But a very impressive crater.

I'm the only troller in the fleet who admitted shooting his balls . . .

[Griff]

Jim is it possible that we don't see people bowled over by bullets because the contact area is so small?
Question everything,

If you have see people shot you know that there are different reactions and sometimes almost none at all. The same with shooting game. I have shot full length through deer and had different reactions to being hit. But I never had one picked up and blown over.

Except in the case of one coyote, neither have I. In that case, I believe that at the shot he jumped up & the 125 Speer HP tumbled him thru a 270º flip. It was less than a 50' shot.

[JimT]

You shoot enough things that live and breathe and bleed and you see strange occurrences. I shot a Coues Whitetail Deer at about 40 yards with my wife's Model 600 Remington in .243. The load was the 95 gr. Nosler Partition at about 3100 fps. At the shot the deer flipped upside down and landed that way. When I got up to I could see pink frothy blood coming out it's mouth and nose but the hit was high in the spine and I didn't understand. Until I cleaned it. The bullet had blown bone fragments from the spine down through the lungs and heart and shredded them. Like a grenade going off inside it. I am guessing the jump and flip was reaction to the spine being blown in small pieces downward inside the animal.

[KWK]

Muzzle Energy as measured in foot-pounds does not really exist. It's a mathematical figure that is useful in comparing cartridges but it has no application in the real world. If .30-06 Winchester 150 gr. Extreme Point ammo actually developed 2839 foot-pounds of muzzle energy, think what it would do to the 200 pound guy firing the rifle. Newton's Third Law of Motion, speaking of objects in motion, states in part: "To every Action there is always an equal Reaction: or the mutual actions of two bodies upon each other are always equal, and directed to contrary parts."

Energy most certainly does exist. You're conflating energy and momentum here. Nominally, 2839 ft-lb could lift a 200 lb guy 14 ft, but there's no way to capture 100% of a bullet's kinetic energy and use it to power a winch to do such. On impact, the bullet is badly deformed (creating heat), and tissue is torn (more heat), and there's really not much energy left to move the guy.

It is momentum that is conserved (as Newton formulated), and a 30-06 doesn't have a great deal. Assuming 2700 fps, it's momentum is enough to impart a speed of about 0.3 fps to a 200 lb guy (which could lift him only about a hundredth of an inch). A 25 lb wood block suspended from strings would reach about 2 fps (at which it could swing up only about an inch), but given it's weight, if sitting on the ground, friction will retard the acceleration and soon stop it's motion.

[KWK]

I often wonder if the old .44 Henry Flat really attained the advertised 1200 fps. I’m not sure how the factories measured velocity in those days.

Dave Campbell wrote that the cartridge featured a 216 gr bullet at 1125 fps and I think that’s more realistic. If it did that in a 24 inch barrel, what would that cartridge do out of a 20 inch carbine barrel?

All my references but one list the 1125 fps. Quick's book on the Henry is the only one to say 1200 fps. A fairly reliable black powder simulator estimates 1129 fps with 3F and a 200 gn bullet. Cutting the barrel back from 24 to 20 inches it reckons 1101 fps. That's consistent with O. Winchester's claim that the carbine version of the Henry would have little effect on performance.

An early load in an Army report lists 26 gn powder and a 216 gn bullet. The simulator figures about 1075 for the 24" barrel.

edit: Ah, the late John Kort looked into this. He said the 1875 Winchester catalog only claimed 1125 fps for the 200 gn bullet. Using the same charge and bullet weights in a 44 Spl, he could get 1200 with Swiss BP.

Back then, the velocity could be measured with the simple ballistic pendulum.

edit: I forgot to insert the link to Kort's post.

[Scott Tschirhart]

KWX thank you for posting this. That’s much more detail than I’ve ever been able to uncover. But I have always been suspicious of that 1200 fps number.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Playing around with my standard revolver load in leverguns on the 4th led me to consider the usefulness of this combination.

It’s shooting well at 50 yards over an improvised rest.

[Scott Tschirhart]

This levergun likes the soft swaged Hornady bullet but doesn’t do as well with cast .454 diameter bullets. Also the cast bullets leave some fouling in the barrel where the soft bullet leave the bore squeaky clean.

[JimT]

Energy most certainly does exist. You're conflating energy and momentum here. Nominally, 2839 ft-lb could lift a 200 lb guy 14 ft, but there's no way to capture 100% of a bullet's kinetic energy and use it to power a winch to do such. On impact, the bullet is badly deformed (creating heat), and tissue is torn (more heat), and there's really not much energy left to move the guy.

It is momentum that is conserved (as Newton formulated), and a 30-06 doesn't have a great deal. Assuming 2700 fps, it's momentum is enough to impart a speed of about 0.3 fps to a 200 lb guy (which could lift him only about a hundredth of an inch). A 25 lb wood block suspended from strings would reach about 2 fps (at which it could swing up only about an inch), but given it's weight, if sitting on the ground, friction will retard the acceleration and soon stop it's motion.

Thank you for explaining that. I am just an old cowboy and don't always express myself correctly ... AND I do not understand a lot of things. What I should have said is that "muzzle energy in foot-pounds is not easily observable" ... which is what I meant. Your explanation is much clearer than I could make it. I appreciate the input!

[KWK]

What I should have said is that "muzzle energy in foot-pounds is not easily observable" ... which is what I meant.

I interpreted what you, Scott, and Grizz were saying as "energy is a poor predictor of a bullet's effect on game." Going back to the Sixgunner days, your (and others') writings drove home in my mind no simple physics formula could ever predict how a rifle or handgun will perform. It's best to defer to experience here.

[JimT]

KWK ... now THAT is a definition I will copy!

"No simple physics formula could ever predict how a rifle or handgun will perform. It's best to defer to experience here."

[KWK]

KWX thank you for posting this.

I had botched that post: I forgot to insert the link to Kort's posts on CAScity. I've patched that up and will include the link here as well.

I really miss Kort posting new information on his BP experiments.

[Scott Tschirhart]

What I should have said is that "muzzle energy in foot-pounds is not easily observable" ... which is what I meant.

I interpreted what you, Scott, and Grizz were saying as "energy is a poor predictor of a bullet's effect on game." Going back to the Sixgunner days, your (and others') writings drove home in my mind no simple physics formula could ever predict how a rifle or handgun will perform. It's best to defer to experience here.

Truth is that I know that my.308 is more powerful than my .30-30 but I don’t know how much and I’m not sold on any of the formulas.

The KO calculation is different and I don’t know that it is any better. I’m mostly just thinking out loud.

[Ray]

I'm no ballistician by any definition of the term but I do shoot chunks and rounds of stove wood quite often. I don't know where the idea that a 30-06 will only move a 25 pound block one inch came from. A green 8"x8"x16" log will weigh 30+ pounds and whether you suspend it or set it on a fence post, shoot it with a 30-06 or the like and it will move several inches if suspended or right off of the fence post in a hurry. In fact, you better back-off from the target a bit or you might get pelted with bark/splinters.

There is no repeatable science in shooting firewood. How much they move depends on how the bullet reacts. Some readily frangible bullets blast right through and scarcely move the target. Then a fmj or hard cast will visibly and audibly smack and move the log and only penetrate 3"-4". There is no way to know the density inside. You may hit a void or soft spot or you may hit a knot or hard resinous sapwood.

Impromptu and informal "bowling pin" type shoots with standing sticks of stovewood are about as much fun as you can have standing up in the daytime. The trick is to use simple leverage as your friend and aim for the upper third of the target. When you set up the targets for your competition use plumb/square based logs that stand steady. When you set up your targets use slabs/logs with a bit of down range lean.

[JimT]

Ray .. I do know an 8" Juniper log ... if shot into the end grain with a roundnose .45 Colt bullet at about 750 fps will turn the bullet right back to you and smack you in the big toe hard enough to raise a large blood blister ... if you happen to be barefoot.

[Ray]

Ray .. I do know an 8" Juniper log ... if shot into the end grain with a roundnose .45 Colt bullet at about 750 fps will turn the bullet right back to you and smack you in the big toe hard enough to raise a large blood blister ... if you happen to be barefoot.

And, they tend to bounce back when you hit a previously fired bullet that is hiding inside. Round balls from either muzzleloader or percussion revolvers or fixed cartridges bounce back more readily. Have the scars and shin bone dents to prove it.

[Griff]

Ray .. I do know an 8" Juniper log ... if shot into the end grain with a roundnose .45 Colt bullet at about 750 fps will turn the bullet right back to you and smack you in the big toe hard enough to raise a large blood blister ... if you happen to be barefoot.

And, they tend to bounce back when you hit a previously fired bullet that is hiding inside. Round balls from either muzzleloader or percussion revolvers or fixed cartridges bounce back more readily. Have the scars and shin bone dents to prove it.

Bowling Pins are also well known to have a bit "bounce" right back atcha built in! Why I quit bowling pin matches. Some 34 or 35 years ago, I was a slightly smaller version of my current self, maybe 195 lbs and fellow cowboy shooter I was running the timer for fired a rifle round that ricocheted off the target and hit me squarely in the thigh and knocked my leg out from under me. Left an inch diameter bruise and clear imprint of the weave of my Wranglers thru my 16 oz chaps!

[KWK]

I don't know where the idea that a 30-06 will only move a 25 pound block one inch came from.

It can't rise more than one inch. It can roll (move) horizontally much further.

[Scott Tschirhart]

In the movie “Winchester 73” there’s a scene where Dutch Henry complains about the .44 Henry and says that it takes too long to kill. In the next breath he encourages his friends to go down and get a “real” rifle (which of course is the Winchester 73).

That movie had a lot of authenticity to it, probably because there were still people who remembered the change from the .44 Henry Flat to the .44-40 and later the .30-30.

I imagine that there was a significant noticeable difference that folks who lived with guns could readily see.

[piller]

Where the animal is hit seems to make a big difference. Breaking the leg has been a bit more dramatic to me versus passing through the lungs while only breaking 1 rib bone. Not as much experience as many on here have, so my experience is just that. Mine.

[Scott Tschirhart]

Some 34 or 35 years ago, I was a slightly smaller version of my current self, maybe 195 lbs and fellow cowboy shooter I was running the timer for fired a rifle round that ricocheted off the target and hit me squarely in the thigh and knocked my leg out from under me. Left an inch diameter bruise and clear imprint of the weave of my Wranglers thru my 16 oz chaps!

I wonder what the energy figures that bullet had on it?

[Rimfire McNutjob]

As @KWK notes ... where all that energy goes. Deformation of the bullet (the second shot with the lead soft point) and the hydraulic deformation of the tissue.

[Paladin]

Thanks for the discussion. Now I know my youth was spent correctly.

[Grizz]

this is a clip from a video. I had lined up 12 one gallon jugs of water on a 2x8 plank across the bed rails. in the video the entire plank sprang off of the bed rails. the bullet was caught in the 12th jug. the plank is so stiff that i cannot deflect it by jumping on it. i consider this evidence of the hydraulic expansion acting on the spring board.

Screenshot (5255).png

this is the bullet we caught. Marshall Stanton's 525Gr Pile Driver running 1440Fps from a guide gun...it tracked dead straight thru the jugs about at the center line of the plank, angled down a bit. it is a truncated cone and you can see that it got a nose job... this is a very tough bullet and has survived several side by side comparison hammer tests with other cast bullets. sorta forged it into a full wad cutter.

This bullet ran 1520Fps from a 26" Cowboy, and 1310 from Blaine's Fabulous Six Gun's 10" barrel.... I also shot it from my 32" single shot, but don't have the number handy... it seemed to have exhausted its acceleration in that one. this load from the guide gun knocked a steel gong off of a support and shoved it backwards through the air about 3 feet, so there was a reactive response to the bullet's TKO, which, I forget, is around 45 maybe. It's on a video but it's too big to post. If I find some stills I will update.

I haven't found my phone notes with Marshall, but another source puts that load at 26,321 PSI. I don't remember where that comes from. I may be the only shooter who used his pressure tested data to reduce charges.

grizz

Screenshot (5256).png

[KWK]

i consider this evidence of the hydraulic expansion acting on the spring board.

Neat photo. Unlike a bullet embedding into a block of wood, there's more than just basic momentum transfer in the motions here. Some of the kinetic energy is transferred into springs (the board and the truck's suspension) via the displacement of the water, making for a much more lively show.

[AJMD429]

this is a clip from a video. I had lined up 12 one gallon jugs of water on a 2x8 plank across the bed rails. in the video the entire plank sprang off of the bed rails. the bullet was caught in the 12th jug. the plank is so stiff that i cannot deflect it by jumping on it. i consider this evidence of the hydraulic expansion acting on the spring board.

Screenshot (5255).png



this is the bullet we caught. Marshall Stanton's 525Gr Pile Driver running 1440Fps from a guide gun...it tracked dead straight thru the jugs about at the center line of the plank, angled down a bit. it is a truncated cone and you can see that it got a nose job... this is a very tough bullet and has survived several side by side comparison hammer tests with other cast bullets. sorta forged it into a full wad cutter.

This bullet ran 1520Fps from a 26" Cowboy, and 1310 from Blaine's Fabulous Six Gun's 10" barrel.... I also shot it from my 32" single shot, but don't have the number handy... it seemed to have exhausted its acceleration in that one. this load from the guide gun knocked a steel gong off of a support and shoved it backwards through the air about 3 feet, so there was a reactive response to the bullet's TKO, which, I forget, is around 45 maybe. It's on a video but it's too big to post. If I find some stills I will update.

I haven't found my phone notes with Marshall, but another source puts that load at 26,321 PSI. I don't remember where that comes from. I may be the only shooter who used his pressure tested data to reduce charges.

grizz

Screenshot (5256).png

Amazing penetration....who needs brass solids...!!!

[Bryan Austin]

When the .44-40 made the scene with a 200 gr bullet at 1245 fps, it was a pretty good step up at 15.3 KO

In Winchester's 1875 catalog the first 44 WCF cartridges appeared...Winchester stated, “The effect of this change [from 44 Henry to the 44-40] is to increase the initial velocity of the arm from about 1,125 f.p.s. [Henry] to 1,325 feet per second [44WCF]."

I loaded up my 44 WCF loads to 1,350fps and maintained an impact velocity of 900-950fps at 300 yards with a 210gr 43-214A lead bullet (basically a 427098). The same velocity the 44 WCF produced in revolvers at the muzzle!

[Bryan Austin]

And these days it is becoming increasingly unpopular to question anything publicly.

Tell me about it! I have been met with great resistance, rebuke and hatred with my 44-40 questions for the past 15 years. It forced me to do what I have done, and prove many things incorrect about the myths, legends and misconceptions folks believed abut it for the past 75 years

[Bryan Austin]

Ye ole Ballistics Pendulum!!

[Scott Tschirhart]

And these days it is becoming increasingly unpopular to question anything publicly.

Tell me about it! I have been met with great resistance, rebuke and hatred with my 44-40 questions for the past 15 years. It forced me to do what I have done, and prove many things incorrect about the myths, legends and misconceptions folks believed abut it for the past 75 years

I’m pretty sure that we need to regularly slay sacred cows in search for the truth. Besides, sacred cows make the best beef!

[Bryan Austin]