Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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CowboyTutt
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Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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First off, I want to wish everyone here a very good Christmas, if not a perfect one. My friends in Ukraine are miserable, and where other countries in Europe celebrate Christmas with lights and fanfare, my friends in Kyiv have only partial heat, electricity and water. Their city is mostly dark now. My friend Alysa has an adorable 4 year old or so named Nina. She is growing up in Kyiv in these horrible times of no light and no Christmas.

For my friends in Odesa it is much worse, as they have no water, heat or electricity most of the time. My friend Maxim recently had food poisoning from frozen food that was 'not prepared correctly.

I keep reading horror stories of people trying to cook over gas heating elements in Odesa, and somehow blowing themselves up. So if you have a moment, please pray for the
people of Ukraine as their hardships make anything we are going through pale in comparison (imagine being in medieval times during below freezing temps, and you have an idea). If you want to help, plenty of ways to do so. I help my friends directly as I can.

Sorry, got distracted from what I wanted to say.

So on the subject of lead bullets and lead contamination.

I came across this video by Ron Spomer. He's been around a loooong time! I think it is worth a good look at. About lead bullets, it starts about the 2:14 mark and ends about the 7:25 minute mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVP851qA3JY

I found the line about "without worrying about feeding my Grandkids lead contaminated meat" particularly thought provoking.

Something to think about while going into the new year.

Christ is Born! God help us, we need him more today than ever!

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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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Merry Christmas to all !
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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I am a denyer! I say most of that is recycled oats that have been through a horse and picked up off the ground.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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JimT wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 9:12 am I am a denyer! I say most of that is recycled oats that have been through a horse and picked up off the ground.
Just like spomer ! I've not liked that guy from day 1.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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GunnyMack wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 12:23 pm
JimT wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 9:12 am I am a denyer! I say most of that is recycled oats that have been through a horse and picked up off the ground.
Just like spomer ! I've not liked that guy from day 1.
Ditto!
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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OldWin wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 4:02 pm
GunnyMack wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 12:23 pm
JimT wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 9:12 amI am a denyer! I say most of that is recycled oats that have been through a horse and picked up off the ground.
Just like spomer ! I've not liked that guy from day 1.
Ditto!
1st I've ever heard of Spomer, but.. I gotta agree with JimT. Sorta sounds like he feels that agreeing to a little freedom lost, he won't lose more.

'Sides the ammo and firearms companies need to bring out some new firearms & ammo every once in a while, just to breathe a little excitement and life into what would be a pretty stagnant industry. There have been some introductions that have been a very real improvement on past offerings. I know young guys that don't have any need or liking for my .30-30s or 45 Colts, buy jump up and down with excitement over .338 Winchester Magnum and 50AE. While I spend my time bemoaning the fact that I can't just go out and order a couple hundred .32-40 cases, they're busy testing new bullets and loads... And that drives businesses.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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Roman legions conquered the known world eating food boiled in lead pots. The decline of Rome coincided with the rise of iron utensils.
For twenty-five hundred years civilized people drank water delivered through lead pipes.
Lead began to be vilified in the 60's and banned from gasoline in the 70's. What has been the trajectory of our civilization lately?
I believe trace amounts of lead may be as much a vital mineral as zinc, copper or iron.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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I did a brief search and was surprised at the wealth of studies out there on it. The studies number in the hundreds now. Here's one of the most recent ones. A pretty simple experiment really, just shoot lead bullets into ballistic gelatin and hit it with synchrotron x-ray radiation to trace even the smallest lead particles.

https://www.lightsource.ca/public/news/ ... unting.php

and the long version with all the specifics. It's actually a good read and understandable.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/artic ... ne.0271987

It did state in the long version that " We are not aware of any reports which have linked acute lead poisoning in humans with eating wild game hunted with lead-core rifle ammunition. But numerous reports link the activity with elevated blood lead concentrations [29]. One of the largest studies (N = 736) was performed in North Dakota, USA. Although no participant had a concentration that reached the level of concern at the time of the study, a statistically significant difference in mean blood lead concentrations was found between participants who reported regularly consuming wild game (1.27 μg/dL), and those who did not (0.84 μg/dL) [30]. One extreme example exists of an individual with a blood lead concentration of 74.7 μg/dL. The 54 year old man reported eating exclusively meat, self-harvested with traditional lead-core bullets, for 3 years [27]."

The effects on wild life seem much more pronounced.

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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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The people of the generation before mine and my generation grew up breathing lead gasoline fumes and chewing on lead based paint on our cribs. They defeated half the world in two world wars, invented the computer, the internet, cell phones and took space travel from science fiction all the way to the moon and back.

I do not trust studies done for the government. The studies are done to prove a point, not to discover whether that point is valid or not. It is not politically correct to question whether a point is valid or not. Your funding will be cut if you don't toe the party line. We see that in every field these days ... energy .. medical .. you name it. The current agenda is to reduce and deny firearms to the general public. Whatever can be used to further that agenda will be used and is being used, including "scientific" studies.

Bullets and shot left in the environment do not leech back into the soil. Bullets and shot in flesh do not leech into the body systems. I am sure there are people on this forum besides myself who have lead "particles" in them and have had for years. Some from more than one encounter. Frank Hamer is said to have had 16 bullets in him. It's a wonder he didn't rattle. :D

Those who wish to remove our firearms don't mind lying, making up statistics, or anything else to accomplish their ends.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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Studies with an intended result are tainted. Before there was ever a study linking lead used in ammo to condor decimation, the presence of lead alone was assumed from ammunition. The CA Fish & Wildlife Department is not known for its reliance on solid science. Game Wardens, notwithstanding, their biologists have long held anti-hunting biases. Far more prevalent in the wild are coyotes as preying on carcasses... yet the same lead presence doesn't seem to affect their numbers. Except when delivered at high velocity. :wink:
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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Well my friends, to each their own and their families but its really hard to ignore 570 peer-reviewed papers published from '75 to 2016 alone in various countries. Here is another good link.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5161761/

The earlier article, in case you missed it, accepted no specific funding, used off the shelf ammunition and nothing particularly fancy in methodology except for the high tech x-ray equipment. This just allowed them to be more accurate than what has been done before.

In this 2nd recap of studies, they said the following:

"According to the World Health Organization (WHO 2015) and the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA 2013), there are no defined safe levels of lead intake in humans. The toxic effects of lead are numerous and largely irreversible. Of greatest concern is the effect on the nervous system of fetuses and children. The adverse effect of lead on children’s intellectual function is well established, especially the decline in IQ and loss of cognitive skills (Lanphear et al. 2005; Bellinger 2008; Grandjean and Landrigan 2014), which may have huge economic effects on societies especially when populations are affected. There is a strong positive relationship between childhood lead exposure and subsequent aggressive crime (Taylor et al. 2016). Additionally, Menke et al. (2006) showed that increased cardiovascular mortality in adults occurs at substantially lower blood lead levels than previously reported. Despite the marked decrease in blood lead levels in the general population, low-level environmental lead exposure remains a major public health problem and has been termed a “silent killer” (Nawrot and Staessen 2006). People who frequently consume game shot with lead ammunition are at risk from high dietary lead exposure, e.g., Greenlanders had mean blood lead levels four to ten times higher than the EFSA benchmark dose modeling (BMDL) thresholds for developmental neurotoxicity in children and for chronic kidney disease in adults (Johansen et al. 2006). Bjermo et al. (2013) showed that increased blood lead levels in Swedish adults were associated with wild game consumption and that the blood lead concentrations in several individuals exceeded EFSA’s BMDL threshold values. The sources of lead in wild game were hunting bullets or shot."

I can vouch for the effects of lead in children and cognitive problems. Mexico used to put lead in some of their candy, and those poor kids would sometimes end up here in the USA in Special Education programs. No hard evidence it was lead-based other than a PhD Hispanic school psych I worked with for years. The kids weren't necessarily cognitively delayed, but their IQ was lower than average by a lot.

We have already banned lead in gasoline and paint. There is no benefit to ingesting lead on any level. If I get to go hunting again, and I'm going to eat what I harvest, I will use copper bullets, few reasons not too. That is just my choice, and your certainly able to make your own choice (except in California I guess).

But the evidence is pretty over-whelming.

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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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Scientific studies usually find whatever will procure the next government grant.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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Last night I had to use 'lil roscoe in anger to save my life from one of these noxious carpathian changelings....
-3570761804873740859.jpg
The fine shot of a .22 cci snake load made an instant stop.

Knowing such vermin are considered delicacies in Indonesia and thereabouts I thought about turning it into stirfry but, just in the (k)nick of time I remembered the gist of this thread and realized I had used lead shot.

Had to throw it out.

Then I got to worrying about the opossum who would come along and eat it and then pass the lead on up the food chain.

But alas, nothing will eat an opossum but an opossum though I am told that humans once did indeed eat them. Imagine the guilt I would bear if someone consumed the opossum that had consumed the oppossum that had consumed the lead contaminated bat. I would be eternally responsible for dropping someone's i.q. 2 or 3 full points !

I know I should have driven a toothpick through its heart just to be sure but since it was riddled with lead shot, I was afraid to go near it lest I myself get poisoned !
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I've known a few people who ended up with lead poisoning. In those cases, these people were involved in the commercial casting of lead bullets.

Its a terrible thing to go through. I've probably eaten my share of lead shot in doves and quail, though I have tried to avoid the pellets.

I'm going to continue to shoot lead bullets and lead shot and I will continue to eat what I shoot.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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The thing i always mention when lead is in question is
'How old is your house?'
Then I ask
'Does it have copper pipes?'
It wasn't until the 80s when lead was removed from plumbers soldier. No matter what ya get lead from the groundwater.

Last elk I shot I had some summer sausage made, first one I cut into had half a bullet in it, went through the grinder! I just ate around it, after all its elk meat!

Recently saw one of these TV remodeling show hosts had to get chelation treatments for heavy metals. This woman has never reloaded im sure!
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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Ray, your irreverent sense of humor is something, I have to say! Made me laugh at the idiocy of it all, right? What a tangled web we weave.

Scott, thanks for the anecdotal evidence for professional bullet casters. I have been wondering about that.

GunnyMack, yes, we have been poisoning ourselves for decades. I don't think we should stop trying to eliminate these toxic substances from our water and food supply though.

There is also a connection between heavy metals and Autism in children by the way. If you want my opinion, we are destroying our DNA with the toxins we ingest and wonder why our kids are born with defects or illnesses. I'm not a "tree hugger" but at the same time, I'm practical and realistic, and want the kids I have worked with to have a long life if not my own some day I hope! -Tutt
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

I know one guy who got lead poisoning from working in an indoor range. So this is a real thing, but I wonder in the case of the bullet casters and the indoor range folks if they ingested a great deal from the airborne particles and from their hands when they ate something? In all three cases, these men also smoked. That might have some contributing factor as well.

Lead certainly isn't good for you, but I have carried pellets for more than 40 years now and I have not had any discernable ill effects. The body seems to form a protective wall around such things.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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Scott Tschirhart wrote: Wed Dec 28, 2022 9:59 am Lead certainly isn't good for you, but I have carried pellets for more than 40 years now and I have not had any discernable ill effects. The body seems to form a protective wall around such things.
I have lead fragments that I have carried for almost as many years.

I have been casting bullets for around 60 years. We always had good ventilation and washed after handling it.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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I've been casting bullets, and melting lead for ingots for almost 50 years now. While working we often had to get a blood test to see if our lead levels were above a certain acceptable level. In all my years of testing I was never found to be any level even close to being a concern.
Ever since I started casting, and shooting, I was always told to not eat or drink while doing so. I was also taught to wash after casting, or shooting, before eating. I don't think that lead poisoning is a myth, but I do think that the ability to avoid contamination is easily avoided by following these simple rules concerning eating, drinking, and washing your hands.
I don't follow Ron Spomer at all as I've never been impressed with him. I've taken plenty of deer with cast lead bullets, and I think his podcast is likely based on statements made to encourage debate, and disagreement. It spawns more listeners, and gets more views. Seems to be working for him.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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And he follows the accepted narrative "ALL LEAD IS BAD" ...
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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I remember spomer was on a deer hunting show, was years ago and he had his chest all puffed up ' im a professional deer hunter ' , spouting off about anything &everything. He goes out on a hunt in a field and shot a buck in the south bound end and turned to the camera and said something to the effect it was the only shot I could get.
1, WAIT for Pete's sake, the deer is in a field!
2, not an ethical shot in my book. WAIT for it to turn.
3, at that moment I had no further use for the guy... ( sure we have all made bad shots on game but I've never TAKEN that kind of shot and never will.)

Don't like the guy, won't watch the guy, listen to anything he has to say. He's an ignert in my book!
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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"Ray, your irreverent sense of humor is something, I have to say! Made me laugh at the idiocy of it all, right? What a tangled web we weave."

I did indeed slay a bat at the request of my boss. I don't see any idiocy in that. Poor thing (the bat) was presumably in a torpor from the cold and exposure to the bright fluorescent lighting but it had to go. cci snakeshot did the job and scarcely scratched the paint. If you missed the point I was trying to convey then there is an obtuseness on your part.

I am a public health civil servant and danged lies and statistics are just part of the game. Lead testing and abatement are part of my job and many hundreds of hours of c.e.h.s are endured on my off days to maintain federal and state certifications. All of the heavy metal contaminate data is just 1980 to 1988 studies rehashed to look current. Worldwide, lead levels tested in the environment and in human blood levels are at the highest ever tested but are actually the lowest in the united states.

As for learning deficit disorders in children,(estimated 1 in 150 in 2000 increased to 1 in 40 in 2020) genetics and age of parents are the only constant. In the younger parent average age group we are on the fourth and fifth generation of crystal cocaine use and the third and fourth generation on methamphetamine use. In the older parent average age group, who more are often of a higher social order and highly educated, it is estimated that autistic spectrum children are spawned at a rate four times the rate of the general population.

Want to spawn bright children ? Don't use drugs. Don't wait until you're fortyish to have them. Avoiding lead exposure in the process of spawning and rearing children is a given.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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First off, I appreciate notations and references.
Then I got to worrying about the opossum who would come along and eat it and then pass the lead on up the food chain.

But alas, nothing will eat an opossum but an opossum though I am told that humans once did indeed eat them. Imagine the guilt I would bear if someone consumed the opossum that had consumed the oppossum that had consumed the lead contaminated bat. I would be eternally responsible for dropping someone's i.q. 2 or 3 full points !
Ray, I'm trying to figure out how you took personal my post as some sort of personal insult. I did not intend it as such at all, so I will ignore your post about calling me "obtuse". If you want to call me out personally, then take it private and PM me. I'd be happy to talk to you by cell or video call. If you want to send me a link to your continuing education credit videos, I will watch them or something approximating them, thanks! I too have to watch such things in multiple disciplines as a public school employee.

I don't understand how everyone is taking this topic so personal? You would think I pee** on your religious faith or something??? I did nothing of the kind.

But instead of relying on something approaching facts, people attack Spomer personally, for things that have nothing to do with the subject at hand?

I've never met the man, nor communicated with him directly, but he seems honest enough to me. I thought what he said had enough merit to post it here.

Ray, the Canadian study I posted was a new one, and not from the 80's. It was quite simple.

Buy "off the shelf" cartridges. Shoot them into ballistic gel. Measure the spread of lead particles with modern x-ray technology. Not done in the 80's. New study done in August of '22.

Probably many more out there much more recent than the '80's.

Here's another one.

https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2118631119

"Significance
Considerable effort is expended to protect today’s children from lead exposure, but there is little evidence on the harms past lead exposures continue to hold for yesterday’s children, who are victims of what we term legacy lead exposures. We estimate that over 170 million Americans alive today were exposed to high-lead levels in early childhood, several million of whom were exposed to five-plus times the current reference level. Our estimates allow future work to plan for the health needs of these Americans and to inform estimation of the true contributions of lead exposure to population health. We estimate population-level effects on IQ loss and find that lead is responsible for the loss of 824,097,690 IQ points as of 2015.

The Flint Water Crisis returned the issue of legacy lead contamination to the public’s attention in the fall of 2015 (1), highlighting that harmful lead exposures are still routine in many communities in the United States and around the world. In developed countries, lead’s historic use in paints, pipes, and gasoline has left numerous waters, soils, airways, and homes enriched with this neurotoxicant—threatening the health and development of today’s children. Less obvious but also important is the threat that lead holds for yesterday’s children, many of whom are victims of what we term legacy lead exposures (2).

During the peak era of leaded gasoline in the United States, which ran from the late 1960s to the early 1980s, the average blood–lead level (BLL) for the general US population was routinely three to five times higher than the current reference value for clinical concern and case management referral (3.5 micrograms of lead per deciliter of blood) (3–5). Consequently, millions of adults alive today were exposed to high levels of lead as children. While these exposures were deemed harmless at the time, animal studies and epidemiological evidence accrued in the intervening years reveal that such exposures likely disrupted healthy development across multiple organ systems (particularly the brain, bone, and cardiovascular systems), resulting in subtle deficits to important outcomes, such as cognitive ability, fine motor skills, and emotional regulation (6), that may influence the trajectory of a person’s life (e.g., their educational attainment, health, wealth, and happiness). These deficits largely persist across time and, in some cases, worsen (7 and 8 and are now hypothesized to put individuals at risk for difficult-to-treat chronic and age-related diseases, including cardiovascular disease and dementia.

Despite our improved understanding of the developmental implications and long-term consequences of early life lead exposure, a full accounting of the extent of these legacy exposures in the United States has yet to occur. Such an accounting is critical for the following: understanding the true costs and benefits of continued lead regulation and exposure abatement; understanding the potential contribution of lead to the burden of disease over the past six decades (and recent improvements in some outcomes, like dementia, associated with lead exposure); and, ultimately, improving cognitive, cardiovascular, and aging outcomes in the current generation of adults exposed to lead as children."

Ray, glad we agree that reducing lead exposure is a no brainer for children. Reducing drug use, yes, of course, I would agree with that. I've been a school psychologist for 20 years and I cater mostly to drug effected families, so no disagreement there either. Hard drugs and pollutants both destroy our DNA.

I appreciate the wise words and common sense tactics when manipulating lead bullets and washing your hands before eating, etc.

I have not read of those ideas before, and I think that was very good information for everyone who "lives here" or who reads here as a "guest".

Thanks Guys,

-Tutt
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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Andrew, you are from the world of psychology. Who were those two Harvard psychologists who did a study that “proved” that even double blind studies are tainted with bias?

What is the word in research - Publish or perish! And then you have to have someone who wants an outcome come to pay the tab.

When we finally get together for that beer which I remind you that you said you were buying we will examine this in depth ;-)

You asked ;-)
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

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So lets just say you eliminate 90% of the 570 studies conducted as peer reviewed and published as a completely arbitrary number on my part alone, that still leaves 57 studies (not sure of their determination by the way?")

Your a Doctor of Chiropractic Old Savage. Yes, I will still buy the beer and pizza too. But your kidding yourself if you think so much research is meaningless. I guess all science is a complete joke by the rationales being posted? And we can selectively "pick and choose" what is "scientific"? I guess it is what is about what "fits our current belief system" and what is not? I'm all for critical review of research, that is for sure. That's why I actually read the studies as they were originally written as a scientific document, to look for flaws. You don't need much background to see the flaws in research to be honest. Not enough subjects, other things. But this is beyond that.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Old Savage »

Ah, the beer and the pizza, now we are getting somewhere. Peer reviewed, we will be reviewing that concept.

Now, what are other sources of lead. What is the environmental contribution to any measurable lead content? Question, with huge amounts of cubic earth having been thrown into the upper atmosphere by Mount St. Helens and numerous others in these many years is that an issue? What about the pollution of the ocean and the food chain in seafood. Now studies have shown that sweating removes ten times more heavy metals from the body than the kidneys. Are these populations sweating? Did the peer reviews consider even these possibilities.

Now I would be willing to bet, and that is a peer reviewable concept, that lead in meat from hunting is waaaayyyy down the line in any contribution of lead to human bodies.

And what I have mentioned is just a partial list.

Certainly hope this beef was not exposed to any lead along the line.

We will examine the use of your and you’re at another time ;-)

Not sure some of these folks are used to our interaction in humor.

Btw, burning the smallest amount of powder behind lead bullets to achieve the minimum velocity needed for the task at hand is recommended in this lead issue so we will need to review your tendency to migrate to unnecessary ballistic power levels.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by CowboyTutt »

OK, that was funny and well written while I was editing my former post. Glad you are still awake, hope to speak to you tomorrow! But no one, including you, is paying attention to the study I have repeatedly written about. Just simple ballistic gelatin. Shoot bullet into it. Measure lead dispersion. Not complicated. Probably more like it, I haven't even looked at that possibility.

As to the effects of lead on the human body? As a doctor, surely you jest. -A-
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by CowboyTutt »

Btw, burning the smallest amount of powder behind lead bullets to achieve the minimum velocity needed for the task at hand is recommended in this lead issue so we will need to review your tendency to migrate to unnecessary ballistic power levels.
OK, that was also very funny, thanks, I needed a laugh here!

I know I am frustrating a lot of folks here. Please know I am still friends and nothing has changed. We may disagree one week, but the next we will agree, so no need to burn bridges here. I don't plan to, hope you will all join me in that.

Meanwhile, hang tight, take a good deep breath, and hang on (for me too!). It will get better soon!

-A- :D
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Old Savage »

Again Andy, relative sources of lead. Did any study address that and attempt to quantify it?

Side note, here in Cali of course some places require non lead and hunting friends and I have found the copper to be more effective.

To address another of your points, in thousands of cases over 45 years if I have come across a case it was not evident to anyone or reported in case histories or case notes. Even X-ray exposure which gets much more attention has not come up as an issue and I worked in a hospital X-ray dept for a year and it never came up there not that it has not existed.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by CowboyTutt »

Old Savage, you are talking about "baseline" lead content in subjects from a defined geographical area who did not eat wild game harvested with lead bullets. Not hard to rule out I would hope, other than having enough of a sample size to be statistically relevant (about 1000 people usually). I will have to review the research and see what they did and get back to you. It's precisely why the actual scientific articles are so important and not the brief summaries as published by mainstream news articles as the latter does not include the specific information I am mentioning. It is only in the actual published scientific articles that this information almost HAS to be revealed so as to be critiqued by scientific peers as to methodology within the scientific community.

Not telling you anything you don't already know Old Friend. I am sure you have read quite a few scientific and published scientific studies yourself.

I enjoy the friendship, and your thoughts on the subject. I would also like to take you shooting with my new 22 Mag Savage rifle with its scope, I think you would enjoy it for sure.

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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by buckeyeshooter »

GunnyMack wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 12:23 pm
JimT wrote: Sun Dec 25, 2022 9:12 am I am a denyer! I say most of that is recycled oats that have been through a horse and picked up off the ground.
Just like spomer ! I've not liked that guy from day 1.
add me to that list.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by marlinman93 »

I'm not debating whether lead is bad for humans, as there's plenty of data that proves it is. I am debating any scientific, or other evidence that lead bullet kills on game, or lead bullets shot into humans has any residual effect that could cause lead poisoning. Of course being killed by a lead bullet is undeniably going to be fatal, but even being shot by one doesn't result in lead poisoning; and eating game shot with lead bullets doesn't either.
If this was true my blood tests would likely be as bad as anyone's could be since I've killed numerous game with lead bullets, and was shot with a lead bullet at 21 years old. At 72 yrs. old something ought to show up? If my blood tests show such extremely low lead levels, then I'm confident Spomer's claims are not the norm, or all that accurate either.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by GunnyMack »

This topic has caused me to remember back to about 1978, out visiting my grandmother and that side of the family. My uncle worked for Alpine County CA road department . I remember him telling us the whole state of California was stripping the lead based paint off the ROADS! To this day I'm still shaking my head about this... I'd be more concerned about being run over when licking lead based paint than the long term effects of licking trace amounts of lead off the double yellow!

Me thinks the California Condor has made people think lead ingested by any animal is so very bad. My thinking is the condors, buzzards, vultures digestive systems are so caustic the lead they might have ingested from a gut pile they might absorb it faster...?

But zinc is toxic in high doses, as is copper.

Eh just 2 more of my cents... :D
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

CowboyTutt wrote: Thu Dec 29, 2022 3:41 am
I know I am frustrating a lot of folks here. Please know I am still friends and nothing has changed. We may disagree one week, but the next we will agree, so no need to burn bridges here. I don't plan to, hope you will all join me in that.

Meanwhile, hang tight, take a good deep breath, and hang on (for me too!). It will get better soon!

-A- :D
You aren't frustrating me and I doubt that you are bothering anyone to any meaningful degree. Certainly I am not insulted by your observations. If two of us thought exactly alike, one of us would be unnecessary.

Frankly, this has given me something to think about that I have not previously considered. I am thinking about whether subsonic bullets (as my cast hunting loads typically are) would spread lead particles through the tissue in the same way that a modern rifle cartridge might.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by CowboyTutt »

Thank you guys, I appreciate the kind words and intelligent conversation on the subject. I've been PM''d by some others who have very personal experiences with lead in their own bodies, and they are fine. So that anecdotal information is important to me, and I don't ignore it, at all.

I originally bought this up to suggest what I will do going forward with hunting bullets.

In the past, I have often cooked for my church using "over the counter' foods. If I am lucky enough to take game while hunting in the future, I will not feed my congregation (adults and children) game I took with lead bullets.

Simply no need for it.

I know that some of the research is "bought and paid for" and not denying that. But to say that 100% of the research is biased is not a reasonable conclusion and it borders on the inane.

I only bought this up to suggest that people make their own decision on how to hunt and with what bullets they chose to use.

I was not suggesting any bans of any kind, just speaking for myself and what I would chose to use personally.

All is well here for me, I didn't realize that this was such a personal issue, I did not see that coming.

I respect everyone here, and its OK to disagree. No friendships lost here on me.

It was just "food for thought" for me as I came across it, and I chose to share it because of it, nothing more.

Regards my friends,

I sure hope things get better in 2023.......

-Tutt
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by CowboyTutt »

I also have to wonder about the lead dispersion with "powder coated" bullets and if they react the same. But that is something that there is no research on as of yet, and so many different powder coatings available, and so many different bullet harnesses, so not sure how such research could be done.

-A-
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by CowboyTutt »

I am thinking about whether subsonic bullets (as my cast hunting loads typically are) would spread lead particles through the tissue in the same way that a modern rifle cartridge might.
Yup, another good topic for research Scott! -A-
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Ray »

If there are any plumbophobic muzzleloaders out there.....

https://tomboboutdoors.com/product/50ca ... ll-12pack/

and rotometals inc. has the alloy to cast your own for $16 a pound and they provide a certified assay card to keep in your pocket to show the armadillo constable if accosted by one of those stalwart civil servants.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by CowboyTutt »

Ray, that is good information, thanks! Humbled...-Tutt
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by KWK »

I agree Spomer has a valid point, but I'm not so sure the "plumbophobic" balls for muzzleloaders are.

Certainly a high speed bullet with its relatively hard lead core will fragment badly. That fragmentation is part of the reason the high speed rounds are so effective. How about, though, the low alloy lead bullets used in muzzleloaders and black powder rifles? I haven't read anything specifically about these, but the reputation among hunters is the low alloy lead bullets shed little weight and often exit as a result. I have to wonder if such bullets will pass muster.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Griff »

IMO, and worth exactly zero, is that what's important is how the meat taken is processed. It's important enough to consider the advice I was given as a novice hunter... only eat up to the wound. Although I probably haven't killed enough game to qualify as a good measure, I have never found any bullet fragments beyond the shock impact portion of the wound in any game animal I've harvested. I've only killed game with 2 cartridges, the .30-30 & the 7mmRemMag. The .30-30 have all been with Federal's Hy-Shok 150 grain soft point and all have been on TX whitetails. Nearly all have been thru & thrus, no bullet recovered and no fragments. Only one has had a bullet recovered... that was in 2005, and quite, frankly, I don't remember the condition, nor where the bullet was found. The other deer, both in TX and CA have been with the 7mmMag, which have only with handloads. In truth, that rifle has never seen a factory round since I bought it NIB in 1980. In thinking back on nearly all my hunts, I have used Nosler's ballistic tip and Speer soft points, both in 140 grains on CA's coastal blacktails & TX whitetails. In either case, any deer I simply gutted, skinned & bagged on site, then processed myself later @ home, or fully deboned in the field and backpacked out of the high country and processed myself. In TX, I simply gutted, cleaned all the wound channel ruined meat out, then quartered and carried to a processor. Every one of those were also thru & thrus, no bullets or fragments recovered to the best of my recollection.

One thing I have read about birds... it that they're inquisitive little buggers... and have been known to pick up and eat many small shiny things. One of the other articles I couldn't read, but find most interesting by its headline is from a recent LA Times, supposedly detailing deaths in CA Condors from DDT. And since it's been outlawed for many, many years, what role is it playing now?
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by CowboyTutt »

Griff, good point on the processing of the harvested game. What do they say about the original 45-70 load, that you can eat right up to the hole? It's a similar point to what Scott T. mentioned how a subsonic bullet may not disintegrate into meat so much.

You guys also have me thinking about another conundrum, in that is is safe to feed modern monolithic solids in antique rifles like my 1888 71/84 Mauser or an even older Winchester. I have been told not to use jacketed bullets in my Mauser let alone copper monoliths! :o The antique barrel metallurgy cannot take it and will harm the rifling I am told.

So, what do I use? Probably slow to moderate speed lead bullets or perhaps even better, maybe powder coated bullets???

My usual 500 grain bullet load is around 1150 fps, just barely supersonic. I can load my new Bengal 500 grain bullets to 1850 fps predicted at 30 K PSI, or anything in between.

It would be neat to take game with an old 71/84 Mauser, that is for sure, but the super long 31.5 inch barrel is a bit ungainly for woods carry! :D

Anyhow, some good ideas here to think about, thanks Guys! 8)

-Tutt
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by KWK »

Ross Seyfried has paper patched jacketed bullets to increase their diameter. I suspect, but can't demonstrate, that doing so would allow a monolithic to be used in older barrels.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by 765x53 »

CowboyTutt wrote: Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:12 pm Griff, good point on the processing of the harvested game. What do they say about the original 45-70 load, that you can eat right up to the hole? It's a similar point to what Scott T. mentioned how a subsonic bullet may not disintegrate into meat so much.

You guys also have me thinking about another conundrum, in that is is safe to feed modern monolithic solids in antique rifles like my 1888 71/84 Mauser or an even older Winchester. I have been told not to use jacketed bullets in my Mauser let alone copper monoliths! :o The antique barrel metallurgy cannot take it and will harm the rifling I am told.

So, what do I use? Probably slow to moderate speed lead bullets or perhaps even better, maybe powder coated bullets???

My usual 500 grain bullet load is around 1150 fps, just barely supersonic. I can load my new Bengal 500 grain bullets to 1850 fps predicted at 30 K PSI, or anything in between.

It would be neat to take game with an old 71/84 Mauser, that is for sure, but the super long 31.5 inch barrel is a bit ungainly for woods carry! :D

Anyhow, some good ideas here to think about, thanks Guys! 8)

-Tutt
The 1886 Lebel used a solid brass bullet. Maybe we are over thinking the subject.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Ray »

Deletsd.
Last edited by Ray on Wed Jun 07, 2023 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Grizz »

CowboyTutt wrote: Fri Dec 30, 2022 11:04 pm I also have to wonder about the lead dispersion with "powder coated" bullets and if they react the same. But that is something that there is no research on as of yet, and so many different powder coatings available, and so many different bullet harnesses, so not sure how such research could be done.

-A-
I wonder about the lead found in gel blocks with X-rays, and what a comparison made by shooting the same loads into water might show. I ask because gel reacts differently than water, and seems harder on bullets, but IDK if this so or not.

I think it is reasonable to hope that every document from "scientists" is correct, verifiable, and true. However, based on the ongoing agenda driven lying that shows up daily from the propaganda sources, I consider it rational and reasonable to discount EVERY SINGLE scientific STATEMENT until there is a way to certify whichever one might be truthful. Peer review is nothing less than peer pressure to say the same thing. This is what encourages the institutional liars to declare that the "science" is settled.

My list of "voices" that I will give credence, or suspended disbelief to shrinks daily.

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Re: Ron Spomer on Lead Bullets and Merry Christmas!

Post by Rimfire McNutjob »

765x53 wrote: Mon Jan 02, 2023 6:52 pm The 1886 Lebel used a solid brass bullet. Maybe we are over thinking the subject.
But was is leaded brass.

This thread has reminded me to go check and see if Bismuth shot is even still a thing. I might need to lay in for some to put away for later.
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