Testing Bullet Pull

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JimT
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Testing Bullet Pull

Post by JimT »

I was talking with Mic McPherson about the old H&R and how anemic most loads were, especially with .38 and 9mm bullets of .358" and .356" diameter. Mic told me that he believed it was because they fit so loosely in the cartridge that the primer was driving the bullets out of the cartridge before the powder fully ignited. I knew the bullets fit pretty loose because even with a heavy crimp you can spin the bullets in the case.

SO ... I decided to run a little test. A chronograph session would be ideal but ... Not being able to chronograph easily I decided to load up 2 different loads and fire the old H&R .38 S&W into a 2x4 and measure the difference in penetration.

I took 2 cartridges and sized them in the .38 S&W sizing die.

I took 2 cartridges and sized them in a 9mm sizing die.

I flared just the mouth of the cases sized in the 9mm die.

I used the .38 S&W neck expanding die normally for the cases sized in the .38 S&W die.

Not trusting the strength of the old H&R I used the Bear Creek 124 gr. round nose 9mm bullet sized .356". They will slide all the way into a case that is sized in the .38 S&W die. I slightly pinched the case mouth to keep the bullets from dropping onto the powder charge. Even with a heavy crimp you can spin the bullets in the cartridge.

With the cartridges sized in the 9mm sizing die I loaded one with 12 grains of 3Fg Goex black powder. That is a completely full case, compressed.
The other case I loaded with 3.0 gr. of Bullseye.
Both cases were clearly marked.

With the cartridges sized in the .38 S&W sizing die I loaded one with 12 gr. of 3Fg Goex black powder. Again a completely full case, compressed.
The other case was loaded with 3.0 gr. of Bullseye.
Again, both cases were clearly marked.

I fired all 4 rounds into a 2x4, spacing about a foot between the shots. I then measured the depth of penetration of each using a Browne and Sharpe dial caliper.

12.0 gr. Goex Black Powder
case sized in the .38 S&W die penetrated .540" to the base of the bullet
case sized in 9mm die penetrated 1.07" and broke the rear side of the 2x4

3.0 gr. of Bullseye
case sized in the .38 S&W die penetrated 1.109" to the base of the bullet
case sized in the 9mm die penetrated 1.487" and would have exited if it had not turned sideways

Recoil was noticeably more with the tighter sized loads

Take-Away: Bullet Pull Does Matter!
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Ray
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by Ray »

Lehigh .355" 65 gr. solid copper "phillips screwdriver" bit over an unsanctioned load of nitro100 extrapolated from kosher a.a.#2 and bullseye loads in .38 special cases seated below case mouth in fired unsized cases then run all the way into carbide sizer sans expander. Fired straight down from a bond derringer 3" .357 at mere inches range into somewhat punky pine.

First shot from lower barrel sounded normal and penetrated out of sight (1.5"). Second shot (top barrel) kind of "poofed" and you can see the differences. The idea is that the either the second bullet crept forward and/or forward powder position combined with virtually no pull prevented complete burn. The green stuff in the bullet base cavity of the left one is nitro100. The right-hand one originally had unignited powder as well but not as much.
IMG_20230401_133033830~2.jpg
This afternoon's test.....from bond 3"..... two near center .38 158 gr. swc over 3.5 gr. reddot (+p from some sources) = 1.75" depth.

One at near 12 o'clock .380 95 gr. speer lawman fmjrn from brasilian self-loading mouse-gun 4+ inches !

Surprising results but there is no way of knowing density or soundness of the bole's interior until dissection.
IMG_20230401_201019389~2.jpg
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m.A.g.a. !
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Sixgun
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by Sixgun »

Yea…if you load enough calibers in many different guns those things happen and when they do along with there’s no major or continuous need for that gun or load I’ll get the sizing die from the next caliber down and kiss it 1/8th inch or so.—-006
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JimT
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by JimT »

I knew it made a difference. And I learned many years ago, especially for the heavy loads, not to use the neck expanding dies. Keeping the brass small and just belling the mouth of the case stopped the heavy .45 Colt loads from pulling and tying up the gun. I used that on the .45 Colt, the 454 and the .475 and never had any issues.

This is my heavy .45 Colt load. You can see how the brass is "stretched" over the bullet.
457191-1.JPG
But testing how much it helped was eye-opening. Especially with black powder. And that confirmed what I felt from years ago also .. that black powder works best with resistance. Or resistance helps increase its potential. Something like that. :D
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piller
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by piller »

Sounds reasonable to me. A bit of resistance to allow the powder to start burning before the bullet exits the brass seems like it would reach the potential the cartridge has. Moving forward too soon would decrease top end pressure and probably would decrease total percentage of powder burned. The lack of neck pull would quickly increase total amount of area for the gasses to expand into.
Those .45 Colt pictures look a lot like what I make. I was taught to use the brass as snug as possible without shaving lead off of the bullet. It might be wrong, but I still have all my fingers anf my gun is not loose.
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Catshooter
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by Catshooter »

Bullet pull (lot's of it) really helps ignition.

Pretty sure though that the primer almost always pops the bullet outa the brass before the powder ignites. Read that many times, and the times when I've (or someone else) fired a round without powder the bullet rarely stays in the case.

Exceptions, always, of course.
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JimT
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

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Catshooter wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 9:38 pm Bullet pull (lot's of it) really helps ignition.

Pretty sure though that the primer almost always pops the bullet outa the brass before the powder ignites. Read that many times, and the times when I've (or someone else) fired a round without powder the bullet rarely stays in the case.

Exceptions, always, of course.
I have tried it quite a few times. Good brass with a really tight bullet fit will hold usually. As you say there are always exceptions. My old 172 gr. Keith .357 SWC when seated in good brass with a tight fit and heavy crimp was never moved by the primer when I tried .. and I tried a number of different primers. But it worked best in new or fairly new brass.
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Griff
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by Griff »

That may also depend on bullet weight. Since tend to mostly shoot 200 grain or less bullets outta my .45 Colts, I've never had a bullet stay in the case with popped with just a primer. In fact, they usually get all the way in the barrel. The two times it's happened due to a fault while loading :oops: ... I've never tried this trick on purpose.
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piller
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by piller »

Primers do have some pressure when they fire. Still, the tiny fraction of time before bullet movement does seem to help if you can make it slightly longer.
D. Brian Casady
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Bill in Oregon
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by Bill in Oregon »

Good data, Jim. Thanks for sharing.
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JimT
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by JimT »

Griff wrote: Sun Apr 02, 2023 10:39 pm That may also depend on bullet weight. Since tend to mostly shoot 200 grain or less bullets outta my .45 Colts, I've never had a bullet stay in the case with popped with just a primer. In fact, they usually get all the way in the barrel. The two times it's happened due to a fault while loading :oops: ... I've never tried this trick on purpose.
I think that is correct. Bullet weight makes a difference.
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Ysabel Kid
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by Ysabel Kid »

JimT wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:18 am Even with a heavy crimp you can spin the bullets in the cartridge.
Here I thought I was losing my mind (still may be). I cannot get my .38 S&W rounds to not spin regardless of how hard I crimp them!!!
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JimT
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by JimT »

Ysabel Kid wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:35 pm
JimT wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:18 am Even with a heavy crimp you can spin the bullets in the cartridge.
Here I thought I was losing my mind (still may be). I cannot get my .38 S&W rounds to not spin regardless of how hard I crimp them!!!
Size the neck area in a 9mm sizing die. That will fix it.
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by Ysabel Kid »

JimT wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 8:33 pm
Ysabel Kid wrote: Mon Apr 03, 2023 6:35 pm
JimT wrote: Sat Apr 01, 2023 11:18 am Even with a heavy crimp you can spin the bullets in the cartridge.
Here I thought I was losing my mind (still may be). I cannot get my .38 S&W rounds to not spin regardless of how hard I crimp them!!!
Size the neck area in a 9mm sizing die. That will fix it.
:D Thanks Jim!
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JimT
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by JimT »

You are welcome. PLUS ... do not use a neck expander. Bell-mouth the case just enough to get a bullet started.
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Re: Testing Bullet Pull

Post by Ysabel Kid »

JimT wrote: Tue Apr 04, 2023 8:49 pm You are welcome. PLUS ... do not use a neck expander. Bell-mouth the case just enough to get a bullet started.
I do the same. :)
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