Shorter Barreled Leverguns

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TraderVic
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Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by TraderVic »

I've never owned a levergun with a barrel shorter than 18 1/2" and my Marlin 30-30 CB sports a 24" octagon barrel.
I've noticed the shorter barreled "Trapper" carbines are quite popular and desired by folks here. What are the advantages of the shorter 16" +/- barrels vs a typical 20" levergun ? Obviously a very subjective question...
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by 4t5 »

Pistol calibers tend to reach their peak velocity at 16" or very close to it, nothing to gain performance wise I believe by going longer.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
How a longer rifle feels and how you shoot it, is all subjective.
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OldWin
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by OldWin »

I have a bunch of "Trappers". A couple factory, but the majority are custom built affairs. I have used them a lot over the last 3 decades (my dad still carries one hunting at age 81) so I feel I can offer some insight.
From my observations, everyone loves the "cool factor". If you are in a hunting camp with a bunch of guys with different rifles, the Trapper will get the attention. They are really "handy", and hard to put down when you pick one up.
There are conditions and situations in which they are the best choice, but I do think many of these are questionable. I live and hunt in a part if the country with some of the thickest woods there is. While they are advantageous in those conditions, a 20" carbine isn't that much worse. Weight differences are negligible. The ACTUAL difference is getting in and out of treestands, vehicles, ATVs, etc. Mounted on a transverse gunrack on a 4 wheeler, the gun is inside the width of the wheeler. Because of this, your carbine doesn't hang up on trees or brush. It works great.
As far as shooting, they shoulder really quick. However, they are slower to settle down, and in a Winchester 94 or Marlin 336, are slightly butt heavy and off balance enough to add to this. The 92 is slightly better in this regard. I have no experience with the 94 Marlin, other than a small amount of shooting with a factory 15" barreled Marlin Baby in 38-40. Much of this can be controlled with stock profile, and Winchester seemed to figure this out with some of their later factory 94 Trappers. I have tried all kinds of sighting arrangements to see how this affects shooting. A scout scope works ok, and puts some weight back over the barrel, but kind of overwhelmed the whole package. A straight 2x conventional scope is kind of the same thing. A receiver sight is the best arrangement, all things considered (if you have the eyes). If not, the best alternative is a Burris FF3 or RMR Mounted in the barrel dovetail in a Turnbull mount. My dad has used this arrangement for several years on an early 94 Trapper in 32WS. It has zero effect on handling, but speeds up target acquisition. It also probably increases your effective range by a good amount.
They are really neat. I certainly think it is worth having. However, I would not have one as my only lever action carbine. If I only had one, it would be a 20". It's a better all around setup. All one has to do is look at the production figures of the last 120 years to see that it bears out.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by JimT »

MUCH easier to use when seated in a car or pickup.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by RIDERED350r »

4t5 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:40 pm Pistol calibers tend to reach their peak velocity at 16" or very close to it, nothing to gain performance wise I believe by going longer.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
How a longer rifle feels and how you shoot it, is all subjective.
Agree on this. I have three 45 Colt chambered rifles, a Win 94 Trapper, Win 1892 Short Rifle and a Henry Big Boy. I generally see about 100fps more velocity with the 16" Trapper over the other two with their 20" barrels using the same loads. Not that 100fps really matters that much, but it does seem that at least the loads I am using start running out of steam with much more than a 16" barrel.

To the OP, Trappers are just plain fun as they are handy. Almost difficult to believe they are legal 🤣 If hunting in the woods, a Trapper will give you all the accuracy necessary for 100yds and in that you might need and are almost as easy to tote around as a large framed revolver.

As OldWin said above, if I had to cut down to owning just one lever rifle, it likely wouldn't be a Trapper. But my Trapper will always have a home in my safe, I'll never get rid of it.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by Griff »

JimT wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:57 pmMUCH easier to use when seated in a car or pickup.
Or my golf cart! I have 3 that would be classed as "Trappers", two Winchester 94s in .30-30 and a Marlin 1894 in 45 Colt converted to use the space saving Cowboy45Special. I only have factory or equivalent sights on all three, as I've never liked the aesthetics of a receiver sight, and have never found until recently that I was disadvantaged. When last at a range with steel placed out far enough, I found that the 300 meter rams were no real challenge for the .30-30. So the gun is capable. It's approximately 150 yards from my back porch to the tree line and coyotes must be fearing to tread as they've been my favored target since moving here in 1991and scarce the last several months...

It also doesn't hurt when the little carbine is good looking... IMO:
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by AJMD429 »

4t5 wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:40 pm Pistol calibers tend to reach their peak velocity at 16" or very close to it, nothing to gain performance wise I believe by going longer.
http://www.ballisticsbytheinch.com/357mag.html
How a longer rifle feels and how you shoot it, is all subjective.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by TraderVic »

Good deal, a lot of good comments, opinions and experiences. I'm considering a 16.5" carbine vs a 20" 357 mag.
The carbine would certainly stow away in the truck camper quite easily.
Hmmm.....
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by AJMD429 »

.
Given the great potential of the 'pistol caliber' [cartridge] leverguns for stuff out to 150 yards or so (and the bolt-action's slowness and fewer shots is really not a problem for the longer-range stuff where you want a bottle-neck cartridge using a high-ballistic-coefficient bullet to avoid the rainbow trajectory), leverguns are my go-to for stuff unless I'd go out west and shoot some game very far away.

Large meplat/caliber (40 or larger caliber) and slow (1,000-1,400 fps) hard-cast bullets just keep-on-going through game animals (or two-legged predators) unless you're hunting something huge with tons of bone. Those bullets can get accelerated to decent velocity in 10-15 inches of barrel, so to me the ideal levergun would indeed be a short one in 45 ACP, 44 Mag, or 357 Mag (or a hyphenated vintage equivalent), or even one in 500 S&W. One with an intrgrally-suppressed barrel with perhaps 12-14 inches of threads, and 4-8 inches of baffling, would be awesome - the slow velocity could be kept subsonic and still have great terminal ballistics, and the gun kept at a convenient and balanced length despite the muffler. Although a tubular magazine can indeed curve enough to accomodate an integrally suppressed barrel, the box magazine of a Ruger 96/22 would make their 44 Mag a perfect levergun for whitetail hunting. No need for hearing suppression, holds four shots in the rare event you'd need followup shots, and you could likely actually USE them due to the suppression making game less spooked. It would ALSO make a perfect in-home gun with more fragile bullets than the hard-cast I'd use for hunting.

I have a similar setup in 22 LR with the Ruger 96/22, but to make that just required the purchase of an 'Operative' can made for the 10/22, from Thompson Machine and Tool, and waiting for the 'tax stamp' - installing it took all of ten minutes because the Ruger 10/22 and 96/22 barrels have the same shank and both are installed with allen screws and a dovetail mechanism, and the only difference is dual extractors in the 96/22 - so the extra groove required about five minutes of filing with a flat small file. Never got the 44 Mag setup - far more complex gunsmithing for that, and didn't have the money - so got a Marlin 357 threaded levergun and put a Mystic can (LibertyCans) on it if/when I want to be quieter than a 38 special load - which is pretty quiet just using a 16" barrel alone.

Still, I see no need for longer barrels unless you want to increase tubular magazine capacity, such as if you really need those extra rounds for a home-protection scenario.

Having said that though - I did once buy a Marlin XLR in 30-30...and I liked it... :mrgreen:
Last edited by AJMD429 on Sun Mar 12, 2023 7:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by abar20manfan »

They are definitely cool looking! Marlin 1894 45 Colt with a Burris 4X compact scope
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by JimT »

Long before the Federal Government became dictators, Winchester produced the Model 92 with 12", 14" and 15" barrels in addition to the standard rifle and carbine lengths. The short barreled 92's are very rare. This one is well documented and went for almost $75,000.00 at auction.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by OldWin »

It's said that most of the 92 trappers went to south America. Don't know how true it is. Rarer still, are the 73 trappers. Another rare bird is any Marlin "baby". I know only of 94s and have a friend with a 15" barreled example that I got to play with for a couple weeks several years ago. It was also drilled for a Hepburn sight. I've seen a few Winchester 94s and 92s, but all of them were rough.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by TraderVic »

Interesting history of trapper style Winchesters that I wasn't aware of. It would be nice if Davidsons and/or Lipsey/Talo would work with Ruger/Marlin to run some exclusives on this platform.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by marlinman93 »

With typical open sights, the shorter barreled rifles are a disadvantage, not an advantage. You're losing the better sighting radius the longer barrels offer for more accurate shooting. I've always leaned towards the longest barrels I could find on leverguns, or single shots.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by JBowen »

Doing my "Enabler" Duty and suppling some trapper eye candy! Here is my Winchester 94's in 30-30, 357 mag and 44 mag. :D
IMG_0273 (1).JPG
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by Paladin »

Short Barreled Leverguns are very handy, even though the government now limits how short they can be. Most are in calibers that handle meat targets well (even the brown bears). They do not upset the sheeple as much as my MP-5, short-barreled rifles, or shotguns. Even Canada allows you to travel through their country with them on the way to the northern state.
As an old guy, I have taken to modifying (that is, destroying a lever gun to some of you) to make them fit what I need. Most of the predators I hunt (or hunt us) are nocturnal, so night sights are required along with a light.
From my Wild West Co-Pilot in .457WW to the 16 inch Rossi .357 MAG I found in Southern Ohio at a LGS last November that I changed into my dog walking gun (the southern house has a few lions). The Rossi has been cerakoted, lightweight forearm, Picatinny rail, threaded barrel, shortened mag tube, and three-lug adapter (for the suppressor).
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by Grizz »

Trappers ARE Handier. I come to this from the hand gun perspective. There are hunters here abouts who've made meat at 300 yards with a revolver. ( ! ) so an extra 10 inches of barrel is longer than the revolver, shorter than the rifles, plus can carry extra ammo, plus can have night sights, plus can club something that needs clubbing, etc. Paladin's setup looks great for his uses.

As much as i think this, i still cannot bring myself to shorten my guide gun, because it shoots so good and i could break it. But it does make a difference in the woods in clearing the barrel over fallen trees, or under, or crawling through brush tunnels. handy-dandy. just have to play with the Winch Ranger to have the trapper vibe. :lol:

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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by TraderVic »

Grizz wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:47 am Trappers ARE Handier. I come to this from the hand gun perspective. There are hunters here abouts who've made meat at 300 yards with a revolver. ( ! ) so an extra 10 inches of barrel is longer than the revolver, shorter than the rifles, plus can carry extra ammo, plus can have night sights, plus can club something that needs clubbing, etc. Paladin's setup looks great for his uses.

As much as i think this, i still cannot bring myself to shorten my guide gun, because it shoots so good and i could break it. But it does make a difference in the woods in clearing the barrel over fallen trees, or under, or crawling through brush tunnels. handy-dandy. just have to play with the Winch Ranger to have the trapper vibe. :lol:

Grizz,
Years ago I got a pretty good deal on a Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun. It was quite handy, but too darn loud because of the ported barrel.
So, I arranged with Marlin to re-barrel my guide gun with a standard 22" barrel, which I like. I guess you could say I have a semi custom factory Marlin 45/70 levergun.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by JimT »

Like Grizz, I approach rifles having shot, plinked, hunted and generally played with handguns much more than rifles. To this day if I am going hunting I reach for the handgun. When Paco gave me his octagon barreled Rossi .357 I was very grateful for the gift, but it felt like it had a lead anchor on the front of it. TWO FEET OF BARREL! The .357 is slowed down by all extra drag in the time it takes to run that far through the bore! Shortening it to 18" worked really well, made it more useful and much easier to use.

BEFORE
1-BEFORE.JPG
AFTER
12-Finished.JPG
I have owed Model 94 30-30 carbines but the Trapper out-classes them all.
IMG_0181.JPG
However, this is still my favorite hunting piece.
5.JPG
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by TraderVic »

Jim, is the Ruger Bisley a 45 ? I've always liked that revolver..
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by JimT »

TraderVic wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 11:29 am Jim, is the Ruger Bisley a 45 ? I've always liked that revolver..
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by Grizz »

TraderVic wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 9:41 am
Grizz wrote: Tue Mar 14, 2023 8:47 am Trappers ARE Handier. I come to this from the hand gun perspective. There are hunters here abouts who've made meat at 300 yards with a revolver. ( ! ) so an extra 10 inches of barrel is longer than the revolver, shorter than the rifles, plus can carry extra ammo, plus can have night sights, plus can club something that needs clubbing, etc. Paladin's setup looks great for his uses.

As much as i think this, i still cannot bring myself to shorten my guide gun, because it shoots so good and i could break it. But it does make a difference in the woods in clearing the barrel over fallen trees, or under, or crawling through brush tunnels. handy-dandy. just have to play with the Winch Ranger to have the trapper vibe. :lol:

Grizz,
Years ago I got a pretty good deal on a Marlin 45/70 Guide Gun. It was quite handy, but too darn loud because of the ported barrel.
So, I arranged with Marlin to re-barrel my guide gun with a standard 22" barrel, which I like. I guess you could say I have a semi custom factory Marlin 45/70 levergun.
Vic
Hey Trader, good story. I was never attracted by ported barrels. Too hard to keep the rain out. In SE AK we tape the muzzles to keep the rain out of the barrel if it's 'normal' weather. And the muskeg out when we fall. I have 45/70s with 18.5, 20, 22, and 32 inch barrels... If I found one for cheap with a ported barrel I'd have that thing in the chop saw before the rain let up . :lol:
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by Walt »

I had a rifle with a ported barrel for a few years. It was a beautiful Ruger m77 Tropical Rifle in .458. The cast bullets I normally shoot would spit lead out the trapezoidal slots onto the front sight and it was a true pain to remove it. I got tired of keeping it clean so it got traded for something that was easier to keep.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by cj57 »

I have 2 short 94 Marlins a 25-20, and 44-40, Marlin made the short ones in the 1889, 1893, 1894, and a very few in the 1895
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by cj57 »

4E18CBAF-B0EA-4263-8C24-3F35C31CF45C.jpeg
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by JimT »

cj57 ... those are NICE!!
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by Bearskinner »

A Johnson built Kenai 50 Alaskan lever gun, cut back to a handy size. You need to be able to turn around in the heavy willows and alders. A handy size helps. All these are .510’s of various lengths (all under 17”). 500LINEBAUGH, 50ALASKAN, 50-110EXPRESS
924769F9-BF11-476F-A186-00ECF7CFCE07.jpeg
8686B367-CD16-4531-89DE-6EF9C9242E84.jpeg
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by Sarge »

OldWin wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:51 pm I have a bunch of "Trappers". A couple factory, but the majority are custom built affairs. I have used them a lot over the last 3 decades (my dad still carries one hunting at age 81) so I feel I can offer some insight.
From my observations, everyone loves the "cool factor". If you are in a hunting camp with a bunch of guys with different rifles, the Trapper will get the attention. They are really "handy", and hard to put down when you pick one up.
There are conditions and situations in which they are the best choice, but I do think many of these are questionable. I live and hunt in a part if the country with some of the thickest woods there is. While they are advantageous in those conditions, a 20" carbine isn't that much worse. Weight differences are negligible. The ACTUAL difference is getting in and out of treestands, vehicles, ATVs, etc. Mounted on a transverse gunrack on a 4 wheeler, the gun is inside the width of the wheeler. Because of this, your carbine doesn't hang up on trees or brush. It works great.
As far as shooting, they shoulder really quick. However, they are slower to settle down, and in a Winchester 94 or Marlin 336, are slightly butt heavy and off balance enough to add to this. The 92 is slightly better in this regard. I have no experience with the 94 Marlin, other than a small amount of shooting with a factory 15" barreled Marlin Baby in 38-40. Much of this can be controlled with stock profile, and Winchester seemed to figure this out with some of their later factory 94 Trappers. I have tried all kinds of sighting arrangements to see how this affects shooting. A scout scope works ok, and puts some weight back over the barrel, but kind of overwhelmed the whole package. A straight 2x conventional scope is kind of the same thing. A receiver sight is the best arrangement, all things considered (if you have the eyes). If not, the best alternative is a Burris FF3 or RMR Mounted in the barrel dovetail in a Turnbull mount. My dad has used this arrangement for several years on an early 94 Trapper in 32WS. It has zero effect on handling, but speeds up target acquisition. It also probably increases your effective range by a good amount.
They are really neat. I certainly think it is worth having. However, I would not have one as my only lever action carbine. If I only had one, it would be a 20". It's a better all around setup. All one has to do is look at the production figures of the last 120 years to see that it bears out.
Top quality posting right there.

I prefer a 20 inch barrel lever action for bottle neck cartridges and a 16" is fine for those chambered for revolver cartridges. My reasons are unscientific; I just like them that way. Once I pick a rifle up I don't like to set it down and walk off from it, so both get fitted for slings. Conventional irons are all I'll tolerate on a lever action, meaning a fine front bead and flat top rear sight. The fineness of that bead becomes more important as the sight radius gets shorter.

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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by Sarge »

JimT wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 7:22 am cj57 ... those are NICE!!
Yes they are! That top one looks like Murder Incorporated for anything inside 200 yards.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by jkbrea »

I have two Winchester Trappers. A 30-30 and my favorite, a .357.
Even though I have several other rifles, levers, ARs, MP5....that .357 Trapper is my go to. It goes on camping trips, RVing, traveling and sits by my bed. It feeds everything I run through it and almost zero recoil. I'm really tempted to take it cow elk hunting in timber with some Buffalo Bore ammo.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by OldWin »

These are the ones I have.
On the left, is a first year round bolt Marlin 336RC in 30-30 that has been reworked. It was done as a pair (did one for my dad) back in 1993. Mine wore a Lyman 66 for most of that time, but as I had a bunch with irons, I scoped this one with a 2x Leupold. Next is an original 1892 Winchester in 44-40 that had a restomod done back in 1989. Beside that is a Winchester Legendary Lawmen (serial #25) I bought a few years ago. On the right is a pre-crossbolt angle eject 94 trapper in 44 magnum. I hated the rebounding hammer, so I swapped in a late 60s lower tang and fire control so it has a traditional half cock safety. It wears an XS ghost ring sight.
The other two are at my dad's place (Yeah, he has the same chair.). The twin of my Marlin. His was made in 1950. We scoped it when it was built. The one on the right I built for his birthday in 1990. It's a 94 from 1899 that had a 32WS carbine barrel on it. I figured, "why not?", and built a Trapper for him. This is the carbine that now wears a Burris FF3 in a Turnbull mount in the sight dovetail. I will have to look for a picture.
The newer Jeeps have Molle webbing on the backs of the seats, so I attached a breachers scabbard to my Gladiator and I carry these carbines this way. Works slick.
In my Jeep, I use the sling attachment on the breachers scabbard and hitch it to the rollbar. This puts the butt right beside the headrest on the drivers seat. When you get out, you can reach back and draw the rifle easily. These pics aren't great, as my Jeep is put up and the hard top is on. In the summer with the soft top, this works even better.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by OldWin »

Found a couple pics of the Turnbull mount on dad's old 32 Trapper. It's been on this carbine since 2018. He has hunted with it every year since. It has worked fantastic. I'm going to order another one soon.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by JBowen »

OldWin wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 3:56 pm Found a couple pics of the Turnbull mount on dad's old 32 Trapper. It's been on this carbine since 2018. He has hunted with it every year since. It has worked fantastic. I'm going to order another one soon.
OldWin, Turnbull mow has a mount for the FF3 that fits on the reciever. Do you think you would still prefer the mount for the dovetail?
I have used neither and have been wondering about the pros and cons of each.

Thanks,
JBowen
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OldWin
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by OldWin »

Yes, I prefer the barrel. They had the receiver mount when I ordered mine.
The reason is that when looking at the sight plane, the barrel dovetail puts the FF3 lower in relation to cheekweld than does the rear of the receiver. Also, the farther a red dot sight is away from the eye, the more peripheral vision and awareness you have. It makes the sight easier and more natural to use with both eyes open IMO. Many nowadays, when mounting micro red dots on AR type rifles, are moving the sights to the front of the receiver rail to get it further from the face.
Of course, everyone has their own preferences.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by JBowen »

OldWin wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:19 pm Yes, I prefer the barrel. They had the receiver mount when I ordered mine.
The reason is that when looking at the sight plane, the barrel dovetail puts the FF3 lower in relation to cheekweld than does the rear of the receiver. Also, the farther a red dot sight is away from the eye, the more peripheral vision and awareness you have. It makes the sight easier and more natural to use with both eyes open IMO. Many nowadays, when mounting micro red dots on AR type rifles, are moving the sights to the front of the receiver rail to get it further from the face.
Of course, everyone has their own preferences.
Thanks, OldWin, I have been thinking about getting one or the other. My eyes don't focus on the open sights very good anymore.

JBowen
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OldWin
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by OldWin »

JBowen wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:48 pm
OldWin wrote: Wed Mar 15, 2023 6:19 pm Yes, I prefer the barrel. They had the receiver mount when I ordered mine.
The reason is that when looking at the sight plane, the barrel dovetail puts the FF3 lower in relation to cheekweld than does the rear of the receiver. Also, the farther a red dot sight is away from the eye, the more peripheral vision and awareness you have. It makes the sight easier and more natural to use with both eyes open IMO. Many nowadays, when mounting micro red dots on AR type rifles, are moving the sights to the front of the receiver rail to get it further from the face.
Of course, everyone has their own preferences.
Thanks, OldWin, I have been thinking about getting one or the other. My eyes don't focus on the open sights very good anymore.

JBowen

Hahaha hey I hear you! That's why I'm going to order another one. I'm going to throw one on one of my carbines like I did for my dad. I have one of the XS Leverscout mounts that will fit my little 94AE trapper in 44, but honestly, I like the Turnbull mount better.
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by CowboyTutt »

Well, I don''t have the experience of so many here with various types of Lever guns. I have shot my friends Rossi Trapper in 454 Casull and mine with its 20" barrel (both round barrels). I would have to agree with others that the 20" does balance better between the two of them and for follow up shots. The velocity difference was only about 50 fps between the two with the same loads. I use a receiver sight and a fiber optic front on that rifle and most of my others to maximize sight radius. -Tutt
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Scott Tschirhart
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

JimT wrote: Sun Mar 12, 2023 1:57 pm MUCH easier to use when seated in a car or pickup.
This is the answer. I started carrying a short .30-30 in the patrol car back in 1983. I have carried it so much that if I needed to immediately grab a rifle for an emergency, it would likely be this one.
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Last edited by Scott Tschirhart on Thu Mar 16, 2023 7:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
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CowboyTutt
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Re: Shorter Barreled Leverguns

Post by CowboyTutt »

Yes indeed! In a car or pick-up, that is the answer with a rifle for sure! :D -Tutt
"It ain't dead! As long as there's ONE COWBOY taking care of ONE COW, it ain't dead!!!" (the Cowboy Way)
-Monte Walsh (Selleck version)

"These battered wings still kick up dust." -Peter Gabriel
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