30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Welcome to the Leverguns.Com Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here ... politely.

Moderators: AmBraCol, Hobie

Forum rules
Welcome to the Leverguns.Com General Discussions Forum. This is a high-class place so act respectable. We discuss most anything here other than politics... politely.

Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
Post Reply
WCG
Levergunner
Posts: 39
Joined: Thu Jan 20, 2022 7:38 pm

30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by WCG »

User avatar
jeepnik
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6830
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2007 1:39 pm
Location: On the Beach

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by jeepnik »

Apparently, gun hacks will write anything for a buck. Disregarding all of the science, the vailed assertion that no one who uses any other cartridge inside 100 yards knows how to hunt smacks of elitism.
Jeepnik AKA "Old Eyes"
"Go low, go slow and preferably in the dark" The old Sarge (he was maybe 24.
"Freedom is never more that a generation from extinction" Ronald Reagan
"Every man should have at least one good rifle and know how to use it" Dad
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3838
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Richard is no hack. But a .30-30 is not more powerful or effective than a .308 or .30-06.

Is a .30-30 enough gun? Sure it is.
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by marlinman93 »

It appears to me the writer is using words that he hopes will get people to read his article, vs. actually be accurate.
Yes the .30-30 with the right bullet is a very good cartridge, and enough penetration and knockdown to easily take game. But to say it's better than the larger .30 caliber cartridges mentioned just isn't true. His explanation justifies it being enough, but doesn't justify it as better.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Grizz »

Scott Tschirhart wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:21 am Richard is no hack. But a .30-30 is not more powerful or effective than a .308 or .30-06.

Is a .30-30 enough gun? Sure it is.
they all shoot the SAME BULLETS. I don't get what performance measurement "outperforms". The only difference I see is the impact velocity at measured distances. What am I missing?
User avatar
JimT
Shootist
Posts: 5468
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 5:04 pm

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by JimT »

If you write for a living you have to have readers. Many feel the way to get readers is to be controversial. Col. Askins was a master of that. He kept the Editors happy because he generated a lot mail. No matter it was hate mail. It meant people were reading it. That meant the advertisers were getting their dollars worth. Things have not changed since then.
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by marlinman93 »

Grizz wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:56 am
Scott Tschirhart wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:21 am Richard is no hack. But a .30-30 is not more powerful or effective than a .308 or .30-06.

Is a .30-30 enough gun? Sure it is.
they all shoot the SAME BULLETS. I don't get what performance measurement "outperforms". The only difference I see is the impact velocity at measured distances. What am I missing?
Somewhat true, but the .30-30 in the usual lever gun with tube mag does have limitations on bullet shape, and length that a bolt action (even in .30-30) wont have. That's not to say a flat point bullet isn't as good as a spire point, and at times the flat point might even be an advantage in bullet expansion. But it isn't a bullet design most bolt actions ever use, or would choose to load with.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
User avatar
wvfarrier
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1440
Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 9:27 am
Location: West (by GOD) Virginia

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by wvfarrier »

They do not shoot the same bullets. The same diameter, yes but in most (not all) cases the projectile designs are different. The 308/30-06 shoot faster and flatter than 30-30 and deposit substantially more energy on target. I suppose in theory you could single load your 30-30 with projectiles meant for 308/30.06 but would it have the necessary velocity to ensure expansion?
A bondservant of our Lord, Christ Jesus
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Griff »

Grizz wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 11:56 am
Scott Tschirhart wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 10:21 amRichard is no hack. But a .30-30 is not more powerful or effective than a .308 or .30-06.
Is a .30-30 enough gun? Sure it is.
they all shoot the SAME BULLETS. I don't get what performance measurement "outperforms". The only difference I see is the impact velocity at measured distances. What am I missing?
Nothing that I know of. While the .30-30 is a great cartridge with the "right" bullet, the only way it's better than the .30-06 or .308 is if they're using the "wrong" bullet for whatever the game might be.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by piller »

Having shot all 3 calibers, my experience is that there is only a small amount of real world difference in .30-06 and .308, but both are quite a bit more powerful than the .30-30, and this fits right in with the ballistics charts. The .30-30 is enough for most game in the lower 48 as long as you place your shot well. With the .30-30 having taten deer, moose, and elk for over 100 years, it is hard to argue with a proven record.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
User avatar
Griff
Posting leader...
Posts: 20803
Joined: Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:56 pm
Location: OH MY GAWD they installed a STOP light!!!

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Griff »

JimT wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 12:30 pmIf you write for a living you have to have readers. Many feel the way to get readers is to be controversial. Col. Askins was a master of that. He kept the Editors happy because he generated a lot mail. No matter it was hate mail. It meant people were reading it. That meant the advertisers were getting their dollars worth. Things have not changed since then.
Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! For every hunting camp I've ever been in, the favorite topic of discussion seems to be who's rifle & round selection is "BEST"! I think the most vitriolic arguments I heard were from a guy espousing his Lazzeroni 7.82 Warbird. I suffered the worst of his condemnations... with my 2 .30-30 rifles until at the end of our 3rd day in camp when he tore outta camp headed home when I pointed out that I had 3 hides & meat, and he had none, but he did have at least 2 expended shells.

I felt bad, until the other guys in camp all said, they were also tired of his braggin'... but didn't want to say anything. I was a little chagrined that I even had to point it out him. Had it been reversed, I'd have seen fit to keep my trap shut!
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93

There is a fine line between hobby & obsession!
AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
piller
Posting leader...
Posts: 15188
Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: South of Dallas

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by piller »

Real world success versus having the most power that is not needed does seem to be what some people point to. Those folks who drive a 700 horsepower in town are like the guy with the Lazzeroni. Those people get angry when some guy in a mid sized car points out how little he spends on gas versus the guy witb a 700 horsepower engine.
D. Brian Casady
Quid Llatine Dictum Sit, Altum Viditur.
Advanced is being able to do the basics while your leg is on fire---Bill Jeans
Don't ever take a fence down until you know why it was put up---Robert Frost
1894cfan
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1493
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:07 am

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by 1894cfan »

Wonder what the results would be if all were using the same bullet, ie. 30/30 150gr FN, and all arrived at the game animal at the same velocity for said cartridges. Likely the animal would be just as dead.
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by marlinman93 »

My nephew was given his dad's old Marlin 336 in .30-30 to hunt with when he was about 12 yrs. old. My brother and I took him out to sight it in, and he kept commenting how he wouldn't be able to take any deer if the shot was farther than 100 yds., so I told him I'd make him up some "miracle bullets" that he could take deer with at 250 yds.! ;)
I loaded up a box of Speer 130 gr. flat points that were exiting the bore at around 2550 fps using H335, and still very accurate. We took them out to sight in, and then headed out to hunt a couple weeks later. On opening day my brother and I were headed up a steep climb, and my young nephew got about 50 yds. ahead of us when two bucks stood up ahead of him a couple hundred yds. He quickly took aim and dropped one, then stopped as the 2nd buck stood there, and yelled to his dad asking what he should do? My brother told him to take the 2nd one also, which he did. No more complaining about being under gunned with the .30-30 anymore after that. What a start for his first year carrying a rifle!
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
Pisgah
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1797
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 9:01 pm
Location: SC

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Pisgah »

Of course he is absolutely correct if we define "better" as meaning" the one that penetrates the most out to 100 yards". This can be tested and proven.

The proper response is, "So what?" Well, nothing -- unless you apply that one narrow definition, and then it is fact. Otherwise, irrelevant.

The fact someone does not like this fact is likewise irrelevant to just about anything...
User avatar
Blaine
Posting leader...
Posts: 30495
Joined: Mon Dec 17, 2007 2:22 pm
Location: Still Deciding

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Blaine »

I know a guy that used an '06 with the "best" premium bullets for blacktail deer. He was getting hits, but they were not going down. They were, of course, zipping thru without opening up. A Green Box 30wcf would have mushroomed and hammered the target. Match the bullet to the intended use.
The Rotten Fruit Always Hits The Ground First

Proud Life Member Of:
NRA
Second Amendment Foundation
Citizens Committee For The Right To Keep And Bear Arms
DAV
User avatar
Grizz
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 11808
Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2007 7:15 pm

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Grizz »

Blaine wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:56 pm I know a guy that used an '06 with the "best" premium bullets for blacktail deer. He was getting hits, but they were not going down. They were, of course, zipping thru without opening up. A Green Box 30wcf would have mushroomed and hammered the target. Match the bullet to the intended use.

that's why i chose a caliber that doesn't need to expand to make meat !
User avatar
GunnyMack
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 9936
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2016 7:57 am
Location: Not where I want to be!

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by GunnyMack »

The best cartridge is the one YOU like.
Can the 7x57 match the 7STW, no but both have taken game, I doubt the STW has killed elephants but the ol Mauser did!
Again, use what you like and keep the discussion going!
BROWN LABS MATTER !!
Twodot
Levergunner 2.0
Posts: 283
Joined: Wed Apr 06, 2011 1:34 pm
Location: Montana

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Twodot »

1894cfan wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:03 pm Wonder what the results would be if all were using the same bullet, ie. 30/30 150gr FN, and all arrived at the game animal at the same velocity for said cartridges. Likely the animal would be just as dead.
can't argue with that, but don't you think it would be more dead if shot with a Buckhammer? :P
..
1894cfan
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1493
Joined: Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:07 am

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by 1894cfan »

Twodot wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 6:05 pm
1894cfan wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 2:03 pm Wonder what the results would be if all were using the same bullet, ie. 30/30 150gr FN, and all arrived at the game animal at the same velocity for said cartridges. Likely the animal would be just as dead.
can't argue with that, but don't you think it would be more dead if shot with a Buckhammer? :P
..
How dead do you want it? Steak on the barbie? Or burgers? :P
User avatar
AJMD429
Posting leader...
Posts: 31931
Joined: Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:03 am
Location: Hoosierland
Contact:

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by AJMD429 »

.
If you get down to just pure ballistic performance. They all shoot the same diameter bullet and at least in theory could launch the same weight bullets. The velocity is going to depend on how much pressure the gun can handle and how big the cartridge case is, and the bullet stability is going to depend on the rifling twist and the velocity. The accuracy is going to depend on bullet stability and the design of the gun, and performance on game is going to depend on shot placement and bullet construction more than anything within reasonable velocity ranges. Shot placement is going to depend on accurate ranging so indirectly usually depends on velocity and ballistic coefficient.

Toss that all in a blender and hit the "mix" button and they're probably isn't a huge difference as far as the actual cartridge. It probably depends more than any of those variables on the gun and how easy it is to handle and shoot accurately.

I suppose if one were to make a 20 lb rail gun and test each cartridge you could prove some superiority, and which case it would be hard not to conclude that whichever cartridge can drive the bullet faster is better because if you construct the bullet appropriately for the velocity you can minimize game destruction or maximize enemy combatant destruction.

But I guess from a practical standpoint whichever one of those cartridges your favorite firearms chambered in is going to pretty much do the job out to a couple hundred yards on appropriate targets.

If it were possible to make a Marlin 336 or Winchester 94 that handled just like normal only used 308 or 30-06, I'm sure they would be excellent inside 100 yards and have all the same advantages ascribed to the 30-30 inside 100 yards.
Doctors for Sensible Gun Laws
"first do no harm" - gun control LAWS lead to far more deaths than 'easy access' ever could.


Want REAL change? . . . . . "Boortz/Nugent in 2012 . . . ! "
User avatar
Scott Tschirhart
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 3838
Joined: Fri Oct 16, 2020 2:56 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

Blaine wrote: Fri Jan 27, 2023 3:56 pm I know a guy that used an '06 with the "best" premium bullets for blacktail deer. He was getting hits, but they were not going down. They were, of course, zipping thru without opening up. A Green Box 30wcf would have mushroomed and hammered the target. Match the bullet to the intended use.
It’s easier to make a bullet that performs well at .30-30 velocities. The manufacturers figured out the bullets that work many years ago.

I’ve had bullets fail in my handloads in a .308. But it was because I chose poorly. A150 gr Remington factory Core-Lokt in the .308 has never let me down. Likewise a 170 gr Remington factory load in the .30-30 has never left me wanting more.
User avatar
Ray
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 2:45 am

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Ray »

30-30bullettestJPG.jpg
Notice the two cannelures.....

And.....

These are interesting.....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=B8-L3PMtID0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=45CU1xoxzDc
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
m.A.g.a. !
JB
Senior Levergunner
Posts: 1475
Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:35 pm
Location: WV

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by JB »

He writes that stuff to be different and get clicks on his articles. Facebook is full of it. It's mostly pitching whatever guns and brands of ammo that he's getting discounted, free, or who's paying the advertising bucks. I'm not a fan.
User avatar
Old Savage
Posting leader...
Posts: 16686
Joined: Mon Sep 03, 2007 3:43 pm
Location: Southern California

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Old Savage »

Had a friend who hunted the Maine woods every year since old enough. He first used a 30-30 then a REM semi auto in .308 with 180 gr RN. He said there was a dramatic difference in internal damage.
In the High Desert of Southern Calif. ..."on the cutting edge of going back in time"...

Image
Urny
Levergunner
Posts: 4
Joined: Sat Sep 26, 2015 9:48 am
Location: Missouri Ozarks

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by Urny »

In the many deer I have field dressed killed with .30-30 and .308 there was definitely far more internal damage in the deer killed with .308. I was able to see that for certain because they were all dead, whichever cartridge was used. Most of the .308 kills I shot, most of the .30-30 kills shot by dad, brothers, sons and friends.
User avatar
marlinman93
Advanced Levergunner
Posts: 6432
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:40 pm
Location: Oregon

Re: 30/30 outperforms the 308 and 30/06 at 100 yards.

Post by marlinman93 »

What I got out of his story was "better" because it doesn't over penetrate. Nothing more than that really.
Pre WWI Marlins and Singleshot rifles!
http://members.tripod.com/~OregonArmsCollectors/
Post Reply