What if your CCW gun failed to fire 10-20% of the time...?

[AJMD429]

.
So hypothetically, let's say you had two firearms to pick from for CCW, and only two you could choose from. This is hypothetical, to make a point, so I'm not looking for how to fix the gun(s) - my point is related to the percentage of time some leave their gun at home for 'fashion' reasons, and how it essentially equates to the same thing as having an unreliable gun.

One of your two CCW choices in this hypothetical scenario is a Ruger LCP in 380, that you bought from a trusted friend who has put a thousand rounds of various brand ammo through it without a single malfunction.

The other firearm choice in this hypothetical scenario is a Glock in 45 ACP, that another trusted friend has for sale, but readily admits that he's tried all kinds of different ammunition in it, and even sent it back to the factory, and the best it can do is to function about 80% or 90% of the time as long as you use the specific ammunition (Federal Hydra shock hollow points) he has found works best.

You are an experienced shooter and confident that with either gun you could shoot plenty well enough to stop an attacker.

If those were your only two choices for carry gun, assuming you didn't feel like somehow you were going to be able to make the Glock function more reliably than the previous owner, given all the effort they had put into it....... which gun would you choose...???

I'm betting some would say they'd choose the Glock and figure they could fix it, which is why I put in the bit about it already being tried even by the factory and failed. Remember, this is a hypothetical scenario. So the rules say you cannot fix the gun but have to settle for it in the condition as described.

With the above scenario, I'm betting most folks here would pick the little Ruger LCP, even though it's not as powerful or high capacity as the other gun, because we all pretty much want reliability above all else. Skills have a hard time compensating for reliability, but skills can use shot placement to compensate for chambering and capacity.

I had a patient tell me the other day that she had gotten her concealed carry license and was starting to conceal carry, but because of "difficulties with female fashion" she sometimes wouldn't carry the firearm. I asked her what percentage of the time she did carry it and she said probably "at least 80 to 90% of the time".

That's essentially the same as having a gun that fails to fire 10 to 20% of the time. Shooting skills cannot compensate for a firearm that is not there to shoot with.

Better to have a firearm that is 100% of the time reliable (because it's on your person 100% of the time), chambered in a marginal cartridge, then a gun chambered in a proven 'man stopper' cartridge that misfires 10 to 20% of the time.

Anyway, that's a good way to think about concealed carry firearms choice if you are someone who is in a situation where due to fashion preferences or whatever who is apt to carry less than 100% of the time. As I told my kids when they started going out into the world, in the movies, right before something bad happens, there's usually scary music. I have yet to speak to any victims of criminal assault who said scary music gave them a heads up so they can go get their gun. It needs to be there 100% of the time unless legally prohibited or unless for some reason you plan to be incapacitated, such as drinking too much alcohol or whatever.

[JBowen]

Even though the .380 is a marginal self-defense handgun, its reliability is the better gun for me.

JBowen

[Sixgun]

Well, the Glock is obviously a higher priced gun so I'd take the Glock and trade it even up for a new S&W J frame.

[JimT]

Well, the Glock is obviously a higher priced gun so I'd take the Glock and trade it even up for a new S&W J frame.

I like a sixgun for dependability.
Most everyone feels they need an autoloader with lots of ammo.
Maybe ... or maybe not ....

[wvfarrier]

No way I would bet my family's liveson a.380 nor an unreliable gun. Trade them off for a nice model 19 or Ruger Sp101

[OldWin]

Every handgun has to be judged as an individual.
I carry a 1911 Springfield, a Colt LW Commander, a Glock 19, and a Colt Detective Special.
I carry these guns because they have proven themselves to me. At the moment, I am proving out a Springfield Armory Ronin LW Commander in 9mm. But it has to earn it.

Every gun is an individual. Period.

Better a marginal caliber you can shoot well and depend on in my book.

[Grizz]

Even though the .380 is a marginal self-defense handgun, its reliability is the better gun for me.

JBowen

with respect, I think this is a myth. there are gel penetration tests at 50 yards that equal the fbi standard. first kill by 380 that i read about a criminal drilled someone straight through the boiler room of the man he was robbing, breaking the spine and killing instantly. nothing marginal about that.

lots of people recover from gun shot wounds, and gun shots are less lethal than knife wounds, statistically.


again, with respect.

another thing i like about the lcp is that i can conceal it in my underwear. hard to do that with a 45. or a 9.

grizz

†

p.s. I often back up the .380 with a couple of 45s. I sit on one, or hold it in my hand while driving in low survivability situations . . .

[ollogger]

Of the two options i would take the lcp in 380
i do own a lcp & after shootin it into some fairly large squash & being very suprized at the damage
it done, i decided that it was way more than a mouse gun
it has always fired which is more than i can say about the the Glock in this post
i carry the 380 alot in the summer, but the sp 101 357 is easy to carry in the winter time & its bomb proof


ollogger

[piller]

For Concealed Carry, reliability is my first priority. The .380 is not my favorite caliber, although I don't want to be shot with one. A 100% reliable .380 is better than anything that is unreliable.

[Sixgun]

I like a sixgun for dependability.
Most everyone feels they need an autoloader with lots of ammo.
Maybe ... or maybe not ....

Well Jim...you and I come from a different generation. We have the experience and the knowledge....

A revolver is easier and faster to grab and can be fired with any kind of a hold. If it goes "click" it's just another pull of trigger.

Many years ago I bought a Smith Model 59 14 shot 9mm.....I fired every kind of ammo from different makes of factory, hollow points, cast bullets in TC and RN design in near all power levels. Even in my twenties I knew what I was doing....shot maybe 800-1000 rds with ZERO malfunctions......ZERO......it was my carry gun and loaded the mag with 12 rounds and one in the chamber.

I can see you nodding your head as I write this as are maybe a few other old timers...near 40 years ago, I'm in the basement, mind training with the 59 on my hip...11 rds in the mag and one in the chamber.....(as you know, that gun is a DA)....so I grab the 59 which is loaded with HARDBALL factory, run upstairs, fly through the living room and the kitchen and out the door with the intention of letting off several rounds in the dirt where I preplaced a milk jug....maybe 20 yards.......I raised the gun, aimed, BANG!...next round..nuttin'.....looked at gun...stovepipe.

This was after months of shooting and practicing.......I went right back to the hammerless J frame in 38 Spl with 200 grain soft swaged flat pointed bullets loaded to exactly 625 fps.....the same load the British claimed that it knocks down men as good as their 455 Webley in the trenches in WW1.

I'd use a 1911 if I was a cop or military..with a j frame in an ankle holster....but I'm not, I'm just an old dude who is not afraid of dying, I'm just not gonna die stupid.-----006

[Griff]

I'd stick with my pig sticker over either of those two. Frankly, the Glock must be some kind of collector's piece... as I'm constantly being bombarded with tales that they're all 100% reliable 100% of the time!

[Grizz]

my 380 load is federal truncated cone flat nose. it penetrates water to the exact same spot as my 9mm gold dots, which means that the spine, the brain, and the heart are all equally in view from either gun barrel. bullet placement is at least as important as the diameter or velocity of the bullet. eh? †

[gamekeeper]

Hey Doc, I can't imagine anyone here being dictated to by fashion or carrying a unreliable CCW but I catch your drift, each is as dangerous as the other.

[AJMD429]

Every handgun has to be judged as an individual.
I carry a 1911 Springfield, a Colt LW Commander, a Glock 19, and a Colt Detective Special.
I carry these guns because they have proven themselves to me. At the moment, I am proving out a Springfield Armory Ronin LW Commander in 9mm. But it has to earn it.

Yep. Until a handgun has fired AT LEAST 500 rounds without any failures, I won't make it a primary carry-gun. I've carried (in order) for CCW:

> Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Mag, after 2,500 or so never-fail rounds of reloads and 100 of 180 grain JHP's
> AMT 1911 Single Stack 45 ACP, after 1,000 never-fail rounds of hardball and 150 of Speer Flying Ashtray
> Charter Arms Bulldog 44 Special, after 500 never-fail rounds of SilverTip Hollow Points
> Para Ordnance P-14 Double Stack 45 ACP, after 1,200 never-fail rounds of Remington Golden Sabre (had more money then)
> Taurus PT92 9mm, after 4,500 or so never-fail rounds of mixed 9mm.

The 44 Mag was mostly reloads, but when I got to the 44 Special, then I was not reloading any more, and boy was that expensive for a college kid. By the time I trialed the Para Ordnance, it was pre-Obama and ammo was cheap, and I had an income. The Taurus I've had 30 years and since I don't mind toting a full-size I like the ability to carry it hammer-down, plus can shoot it accurately just a tad faster than the Para Ordnance, and 18 vs 14 might even be nice in rare circumstances.

The original point of the post though was that people (often women, due to 'fashion concerns') will leave their firearm at home "unless they think they will really need it", and that is equivalent to having one that malfunctions the same per cent of the time you leave home without it. Not good.

[stretch]

It's gotta be RELIABLE in order to be considered for social work.

I'd take the 380 because it goes, "BANG!" every time, but I'm not a
fan of either platform. Glock's reputation seems to have been made
on reliability and ease of use. That's the only reason to consider one for me.
If it ain't reliable, a Glock is worse than useless.

-Stretch

[OldWin]

I think many people put way too much faith in their handgun cartridge of choice. In reality, none of them are all that great a stopper when compared to even a mediocre rifle cartridge. I don't know as the chambering (within reason) makes much difference.
What DOES make a difference is that it fires when it needs to, the slugs go where they need to when it fires, and the users mindset. Those 3 matter more than anything else.

I've noticed in a lot of videos and articles that much of the shooting and practice seems to be at this magical 7 yard distance. Like it's the only distance that anyone will ever have to shoot. Or more likely, it's the distance that makes hitting somewhat possible with their 2oz, 2" barreled, 10 round 9mm.
If a feller can draw a 4" K frame and put 6 rounds of 38 in the A zone at 25 yards, how is he not gonna win a fight a 7 yards? A gunfight isn't a plate hit. Accuracy matters.
In recent years I've gotten away from carrying small guns. It's a PIA, but worth the effort to me. I've had to change up my dress and carry habits, but the smallest I try and go with is a Glock 19 or a LW Commander. In an auto, guns that size tend to be more reliable, more accurate, and gain velocity from more barrel. In a revolver, I will on occasion carry a Colt Detective Special, but try to avoid it for a 4" K frame model 66 if I can. I like the effectiveness of 357, but not in a 2" J frame. I don't shoot them well enough. I'm better off with 38 in these small revolvers.

[buckeyeshooter]

My approach would be to sell both and buy a Smith and Wesson 19 with 2.5 inch barrel with a set of pachmyer grips.

[JimT]

I like a sixgun for dependability.
Most everyone feels they need an autoloader with lots of ammo.
Maybe ... or maybe not ....

Well Jim...you and I come from a different generation. We have the experience and the knowledge....
A revolver is easier and faster to grab and can be fired with any kind of a hold. If it goes "click" it's just another pull of trigger.

I like my .357 in a shoulder holster in colder weather.
As for shooting jello, sure .. some loads go as deep as others ... unless the jello is wearing long johns, a heavy wool shirt and a coat .. and maybe has several inches or more of fat on its body ... and has an arm in the way of the projectile coming toward it. The little guns are OK until they aren't.

Of course having a larger caliber is no guarantee either. Read the account of the gunfight in Florence, Arizona between Gabriel and Phy. One had a 45 Colt and one had a 32 and the guy with the 32 was hit near the heart first thing. He used his little 32 to kill the other guy and though it took him a long time, he recovered.

When I was a Corrections Officer we had an inmate who was in a gunfight with 2 Policemen. He had a little .32 ACP and the Police had .357's ... he killed one and wounded the other and would have gotten away but a ricochet from one of the cops got him in the head. He was partially disabled and had a big dent in his skull but was quite well known among the population.

My personal ideas are mine and I am not trying to convince anyone else I am correct .. cuz I am just making my choices based on what I like and feel. Several things my Momma told me influence this: - nothing good ever happens late at night - stay away from stupid places and stupid people as much as possible - DON'T TOUCH THAT! YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE IT'S BEEN! (I heard that last one more than once when I met a certain kind of female late at night in stupid places)

And as to what to carry? Use what you have personal confidence in. Personal confidence goes a long way toward cancelling out panic or fear.

[Rockrat]

I would definitely go with the .380. Heck, I carry a 22 lots of times.

Would you take a rifle Polar Bear Hunting, that would only fire 80% of the time? Or go Elk hunting and come across a 350 yard shot on an 8x8 and have the latest 300 whiz bang magnum that only fires 80% of the time, or a 30-06 that fires every time?

[marlinman93]

When it comes to CCW nothing less than 100% reliability is acceptable to me. If I had to choose between a .22LR handgun that was 100% reliable, and a .45 that wasn't 100%, the .22LR would get my pick. Never want to have to use my CCW, but if I needed it I want to be confident it will work.

[1894cfan]

EVERY time I handle my firearm without touching the trigger, it fails to fire!

[Sixgun]

Jim T. said the most important......stay the hell away from trouble. None of us here wants to be in a gunfight because the consequences could leave you bankrupt .....even if you are 100% in the right........avoiding gunfights isn't that hard.......be aware of everything around you......when you park your car, don't park in a dark area or where other people are sitting in their cars.

Watch your six when getting in your car. When pumping gas stand tall and alert.

Being aware of your surroundings and "making a presence" by standing or walking alert is the same as getting a flu shot......you never really know it works. You may have been a target in the past but one hood rat may have said to the other hood rat, "ahh, dunno, looks like he can handle himself, let's wait for a weak looking liberal in a Prius." -----006

[AJMD429]

.
I definitely feel like the number one issue is the gun has to be 100% reliable

But part of being 'reliable' means you have it on your person...!

So if you prioritize fashion or comfort, make sure that the more convenient gun is still 100% reliable.

Now that I'm older I have a choice between all sorts of different sizes and chamberings and so forth, but when I was younger, as you can see at one point the only reliable handgun I had to carry for personal protection was a Ruger Super Blackhawk.... ...talk about a difficult gun to conceal easily with summer clothing...

But at the time I had a less reliable Ruger Mark One pistol, which wasn't that small either, and an even less reliable 45 ACP 'Officer' model. So I made sure I wore a nice baggy jacket. If it was really hot I would stick the gun in a paper bag, and put that paper bag in another paper bag along with a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and just carry it in my hand or backpack.

You definitely don't have to settle for a small gun or even worse, an unreliable gun. Just modify your clothing if need be.

[2ndovc]

Interesting thread, Doc.

Just this morning and another reminder of why we need to carry everyday.
https://www.foxnews.com/us/indiana-walm ... eutralized
This could have gone far worse if the police weren't there and did what they were supposed to do.

We see all the time what happens in these instances when an armed citizen is present and capable of defending himself and others and when there isn't.

Since going to work for a different insurance carrier with a far smaller, mostly rural territory, I've been carrying my little S&W 442 when I'm out for inspections, with a G23 in a backpack in the company wheels. For the last few years, I was on the east side of Cleveland a lot and some of those neighborhoods were pretty rough. My preference for those days would by my Commander, but in warmer weather I'd be packing my little Sig 365, 9mm. I had to drive my own truck for that company and there's always a full size M&P 9mm stuck between the seat and armrest. There were a couple of times that 9mm was on my lap, and this would be before noon on a week day. Wouldn't schedule anything after 12pm in those neighborhoods.

Nothing in this world is 100%, but I would go with a smaller caliber in a pistol I know to be accurate enough to hit what I'm aiming at over a problematic larger caliber. Although, I have doubts that a Glock would be returned from the factory and still have serious issues. Of the three that I have, and thousands of rounds through them, I've had two malfunctions. Two FTEs in the same G19 that has accounted for over five thousand rounds shooting IDPA years ago. Both times I was shooting aluminum cased Blazer ammo and shooting left hand, during a weak hand course of fire. I haven't bought a box of that stuff since. If you haven't had a bullet jump and lock the cylinder on a revolver, you're not trying hard enough.

jb

[JimT]

If you haven't had a bullet jump and lock the cylinder on a revolver, you're not trying hard enough.

I haven't had that since the 1980's when I learned more about "bullet pull" and how to size and bell the neck of the case .... BUT I have run into factory loads that had no priming compound in the primer. A friend was out shooting his new 9mm and had a failure to fire. He brought me the cartridge and I pulled it apart.

The primer strike was good and there was powder in the cartridge

IMG_0918.JPG

There was no priming compound in the primer.

IMG_0919.JPG

Anything can happen and we cannot control it all. All we can do is try to be prepared to handle something unexpected and unplanned for.

[2ndovc]

Pretty much how I learned as well.

"Anything can happen and we cannot control it all. All we can do is try to be prepared to handle something unexpected and unplanned for."

Exactly!

jb

[marlinman93]

You can do everything right, be aware of your surroundings, and have a CCW on you, and still might end up needing to use it. But when that happens and you've done everything correctly, you might more likely survive than others who don't do the same!
Having been in this scenario, and spotting the trouble coming in the form of two younger guys following my wife and I right to our truck, it was the scariest situation I've ever been in! Fortunately I did have my S&W Model 60, and after getting my wife into the truck, and locked inside I turned to confront the two guys. As I reached inside my jacket to grab my .38, they both stopped just 10 ft. from me! It seemed like an eternity that we just stood there and nobody made a move. I had my .38 firmly gripped, and out of the holster, but still under my coat. I finally told the two guys, "Not sure what you plan to do, but I know what I'm going to do."
At that point they were looking right at my hand in my Napoleon sort of stance, and they looked at each other and turned and ran away. I was relieved, but really shaken at being that close to maybe drawing my pistol and possibly having to shoot someone(s). I'm thankful I had it, and even more thankful I didn't need to use it.

By a strange coincidence I got up this morning to see our street full of cop cars, and crime scene motorhome, and officers everywhere! I went out to see what was going on, and an officer approached me to ask if I needed to leave? I told him no, but asked what happened? He said there was a shooting at my neighbor's house at 2:00 a.m. and someone died. He wouldn't tell me who of course, but said the shooter was in custody, and no danger.
I went inside and turned on the news to see what might be covered. I saw a report, and video of my neighbor being escorted away in handcuffs! The news stated the "shooter" had called police and remained at the scene, so appears it was my neighbor who shot someone! He's a single guy in his 30's and always quiet, and never any trouble. I hope he's OK, and they find in his favor to be a justified shooting!

[Blaine]

If you think two or three torso hits from a .38 special, or 9mm at 25 or 30 yards would be effective defense, then two or three, or more, .380 hits at personal defense range is about the same. More if you are using the Good Stuff from Buffalo Bore like the 100 grain flat-nosed hard cast.
I'm not trying to say that a calibre that begins with "4" isn't more effective, but don't discount even a .22 AirLite if that's what you leave the house with in the morning. I haven't carried my AirLite .22 for a very long time, but I could empty all nine shots into a torso-sized target at personal defense range in <2 seconds.
I don't feel under-protected with my LCP in my pocket.

[GunnyMack]

I find the Glock unreliable suspect of poor ' form ' of the seller. Limp wrist is what I'm talking about.
Does this Glock not function just when the owner is shooting it or does it happen with other shooters as well?
If it does it with everyone then its a fault of the gun.
We all know Glocks work, wet or dry (lube) hot or cold, dirty or clean they have been torture tested to the umpteenth degree. The design is a combat pistol, a grunt in a fox hole can depend on it to work.
The fact that it was sent back and returned means no fault was found in the gun... operator error is my vote.
Back in 1990s Glock had a G17 that fired 1000 rounds per day everyday in a nonstop torture test and did so for a couple years. Iirc, an extractor and recoil spring were the only parts changed.

When the US was looking to change sidearm the test criteria was stringent and only 2 models passed every test, the 1911 and the Glock. What did we adopt? The 92 Beretta and the failure rate has been high. Slides breaking and enough springs and plungers to make an armourer pull his crew cut out!

Don't fault the gun, its most likely operator headspace being excessive.

[Blaine]

Doc was not saying there was a real Glock or a real LCP....he was using the term hypothetically.

[GunnyMack]

Hypothetical or not there is a problem other than the gun !

[piller]

I have tried to make a Glock fail. My experience is that limp wristing it can cause a failure. Your experience may be different. I can shoot with either hand, and when trying to do it right, I have never had a Glock fail. That is shooting 1 handed, left or right hand. Glocks are ugly as 40 miles of bad road, but they are reliable.

[Blaine]

Shooting those aluminum Blazer .45acps would make my G-36 stovepipe about every 5th round....I don't even think they make them anymore.

[AJMD429]

Doc was not saying there was a real Glock or a real LCP....he was using the term hypothetically.

You have a good eye for detail. For lack of that some took the thread down a little bit different track but it was still an interesting discussion. I clarified the phrasing in the original post to try to get it back on track.
The bottom line is that of course you need a firearm that is reliable, but every time you leave it at home on that day it is 0% reliable, and for those who think they can predict what days and places they will be vulnerable versus not vulnerable, if they have that magical skill, it would be even safer to just stay at home on the days you know you're going to get attacked.

[JimT]

Doc was not saying there was a real Glock or a real LCP....he was using the term hypothetically.

You have a good eye for detail. For lack of that some took the thread down a little bit different track but it was still an interesting discussion. I clarified the phrasing in the original post to try to get it back on track.
The bottom line is that of course you need a firearm that is reliable, but every time you leave it at home on that day it is 0% reliable, and for those who think they can predict what days and places they will be vulnerable versus not vulnerable, if they have that magical skill, it would be even safer to just stay at home on the days you know you're going to get attacked.

When I put my pants on in the morning, the next thing I put on is my carry gun for the day.

[Scott Tschirhart]

When I put my pants on in the morning, the next thing I put on is my carry gun for the day.

That’s how I’ve lived for the last 40 plus years.

I’d take the .380 and wouldn’t worry about it. I used a .32 ACP Silvertip from a surplus Manurin Walther PP one night in Houston to perfect satisfaction.

It’s not the gun, it’s just a tool. But it does you no good if it won’t work.

[RIHMFIRE]

Well if it failed that much in practice, I would never carry it.
380, IMO, ..stinks.
My Mauser is no good, and it broke this weekend and, I probably won't fix it. now it's a paper weight.