358 Win Barnes TSX load for Condor Zone 1st Results!

[CowboyTutt]

Hey guys, load data for the 358 has been a discussion of late, so I thought I would post what I am working on. I want to go hunting with a friend at Fort Hunter Liggett before I leave for Ukiah. My friend is very experienced at hunting and knows how to process his own game but we haven't managed to find any pigs at the local public lands which are shotgun only and very over-hunted. So, were trying to plan a run to F.H.L. which went to a lead ban prior to the new F&G rules. So, that means redesigning my loads to work with the pecularities of a Barnes 225 grain TSX bullet in my 358 BLR.

I needed a powder that took up less space to allow for the Barnes bullet which is slightly longer than the Hornady 250 grain spitzer bullet. I use Varget (compressed) with the heavier Hornady round, but it would not work in this particular application because I run out of case capacity before I reach max pressures. After reviewing load data and velocities, IMR 3031 looked like an excellent choice.

First off, I made a dummy round to see what the longest COL the action and chamber could fit while up against the lands. This turned out to be 2.806" with this particular bullet. As most of you know, Barnes bullets need a longer "running start" at the lands to avoid serious over-pressures. A minimum of 005 is recommended. I usually run 007 in another Barnes bullet application in my 375 H&H AI. On the other hand, Mic McPherson has taught me to make cartridges that are as close to the lands/grooves as is feasable for the best accuracy. Using a conventional 350 grain jacketed protected point in my other application as mentioned, I go to 002 off the lands. I believe this is about the same for hard-cast lead bullets of Bhn 20. Softer bullets of 20-1 alloy or Bhn 10-12 Mic has me load right up to the lands, at least in my old low pressure 11mm 71/84 Mauser. Remember, this is the internet and use this information at your own risk!

After getting this measurement, I tinkered the dummy to see what the longest COL was that would function in the magazing and action. I decided on 2.795. So, I ended up with 011 clearance before the lands/grooves. Not my first choice, but I figured from previous experience that the magazine would be the limiting factor.

So, I have 5 using 40 grains of IMR 3031 (compressed) over a Fed 210 primer with a reletively light Lee FCD crimp, and 5 similar using 41 grains. The data I used is based upon the 250 grain Hornady bullets I mentioned using the same powder. I usually use a CCI BR-2, but the Federals are supposed to be a little easier to ignite because they use a bit of paint over the anvil instead of paper or foil like the CCI and Winchester primers do. This may be more theoretical than real, but thats the story.

I'm hoping a local land manager will let me chronograph the loads during the week, and I will report back. I hope to have a good pig hunting load very soon!

-Tutt

Update:

My first results were a little underwhelming. The data was as follows:

Barnes 225 grain TSX
40 grains IMR 3031
Fed 210 primer
COL: 2.795

2096
2123
2136
2136
2119

Hi: 2136
Low: 2096
Ave: 2122
ES: 40
SD: 16

The second group of 5 was similar but with 41 grains of powder. Results were:

2178
2119
2147
2150
2147

Hi: 2178
Low: 2119
Ave: 2148
ES: 59
SD: 20

What I found interesting about the results was that both strings had duplicate velocities in a 5 shot string. This powder has real promise. Also, I could see a visable difference in the Fed primers in the amount of paint over the anvil. I'm thinking these primers may lack consistancy.

I have 10 rounds of 42 grains of IMR 3031 loaded up with my usual CCI BR-2 primer which have worked very well in my 358 Win in this rifle. I will be shooting it over the next week while in SoCal, and will report back.

-Tutt

[RKrodle]

Tutt, I look forward to hearing the results of your chronographing. What kind of speed do you anticipate? Do you think you will have enough velocity out at the longer distances to get good expansion? What velocities does Barnes recommend for the TSX? Sorry for all the questions but inquiring minds want to know.

[O.S.O.K.]

I'd check Winchester 760 - its very high energy/volume. That, or W748 - which is a little faster and usually a good bet for any 308-based cartridge - also a ball powder.

[JDL]

Tutt,
Some years back, I worked up a load using Barnes X 180 grain and H-335 in my .358's. Velocity was 2700 + in both rifles but, I couldn't get the accuracy with 3" the norm in my M.70 and 2" in my BLR, plus the earily Xs fouled pretty bad. Still, if I had no other choice, I'd bring home the bacon with them.
JDL

[CowboyTutt]

Thanks for all the advice guys. If this doesn't work, I'll certainly try something else! IMR 3031 has had good luck in Match 308 shooting, and I think will give me the appropriate velocities of between 2200-2300 fps which is all I can expect I think out of the 20" barrel. I may try the Winchester LR primer as it is hotter and might work better with the compressed load. We shall see. Most of the time, the ammo is more accurate than I can hold!

-Tutt

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Tutt, do you have the newer pistol grip BLR lightweight in 358 Win or one of the 81's with the straight grip?

Oh, and I like the new avatar. You were looking a bit compressed in the older one.

[NonPCnraRN]

Tutt: Being the smart butt that I am, I'd say take that 92 Puma in 454 that Mic worked over for you and load it with Barnes 250 gr XPB boolits. I'd love to hear how those bullets perform also. I just got a Marlin Cowboy and will get some 300 gr Barnes 45/70 bullets for it. My sister has a vineyard in the Lockford area and she and most vinyard owners would welcome a pig slaughter as those pigs can destroy a whole vineyard overnight. She was antihunting until she became a vinyard owner. Funny how views change. Sorry for hijacking your subject.

[CowboyTutt]

Rimfire, I have a SS '81 with straight laminated stocks. It was a SHOTSHOW product from 2006 (I think that was the year). Nice gun, but needed a slicker action and better trigger so I sent it off to Mic McPherson for an overhaul. It ended up being sort of a nightmare but it works well now. Here's an early pic of her:



-Tutt

P.S. Thanks for the compliment on the new avatar!

[CowboyTutt]

NonPC, nothing to apologize for my friend. Hope your are all healed up as good as can be. I thought about taking the Puma, but it seems to have developed a bit excessive headspace and keeps bending the lever some. It reads OK according to a go/no go gauge, but I have apparently done something to the rifle that needs repairing. I probably put some too hot loads through it or something. Mic, Nate Jones and myself have been dialoging how best to repair it. I'm thinking of rebarreling in with something using a faster twist than the 1-32 it came with. Meanwhile, I've gotten used to carrying the BLR around as it is a very easy to carry rifle, well balanced, and the fiber optic front/twilight rear aperture sight really, really work well for hunting. Its sort of become my hunting buddy while the Puma is down for bit (although I'm sure it could handle a couple of more rounds through it.) I hope to have the Puma repaired by the end of summer.

Thanks for the suggestion, and I would like to try your idea, but then again, I look forward to using some heavier hitting LEAD bullets!

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

NonPC, I look forward to what those 300 Barnes bullets can do in your Marlin Cowboy. Barnes makes a 300 muzzleloader bullet with a sabot that I was going to load into my "stretched" Puma, and I also already have some 275 grain Barnes 460 S&W flat base spitzer bullets to try that was a gift from Jessica Brooks at Barnes that will fit my modified action too. I'm looking forward to trying all this stuff in the Puma, but not before it is repaired and I have a copy of Quickload on my computer to help with pressures and load data!

-Tutt

[NonPCnraRN]

Tutt: Maybe we could get together and load up some pure silver hollow points filled with garlic for CA legislators who are sucking the life's blood from this beautiful state. I WAS KIDDING, FOR ALL YOU LEOs THAT MIGHT BE READING THIS!

Afterthought: It might be cheaper to melt down some quarters and cast them into boolits. Anybody know what metals go into making a quarter? Barnes TSX bullets are about a dollar apiece. I could cut dollar bills into strips to paper patch them and be money ahead. I am not knocking Barnes TSX bullets but it would be nice if it was our choice to use them and not some Eco-Twits' in Sacramento.

[NonPCnraRN]

Tutt: Thanks for remembering and your concern regarding my "rebuilt" shoulders. The Cowboy will have to be fitted with a Limbsaver recoil pad.....I promised my orthopedic surgeon. Just when I think I can shoot big slow moving slugs that don't have to expand to kill game, the law changes and I wind up having to use fast stepping all copper bullets. I just ordered Barnes' latest reloading manual so I will see just how fast those bullets will have to move to expand. I just got a SBH because the 225 gr 44 mag XPB has the same SD as the .451 454 XPB and slightly better BC. Used to be all you worried about bullets were SD and BC. Now they have to be PC too!

[El Chivo]

Tutt, can you recommend a way to measure for keeping the bullet back from the lands?

If high pressures would result, I want to check it, rather than just using the standard OAL.

I'll be loading Barnes in 30-30 and 35 Rem. The guns shooting them will be Marlins so I guess I can take the bolt out and check the fit.

[CowboyTutt]

Sobenk, I'm trying to visualize this in my minds eye, and I THINK I did it correctly. Make a dummy round with the exact bullet you are going to use and keep seating the bullet out until you arrive at the point where the bolt will not close. It helps to coat the bullet with soot from a burning lighter. It leaves a pretty good mark around the bullet tip where it is meeting the rifling. Anyhow, when the cartridge is still short enough to fit in the chamber it is the shoulder of the case against the shoulder of the chamber that you are hitting (with a bottlenose case) UNTIL you seat the bullet out far enough that it is pushed against the rifling. At this point the bullet will push the case head back against the bolt until it won't close anymore. Measure that length, and thats the COL with THAT BULLET that interesects the rifling. Back off at least 005 and maybe like 007 from that COL and you should be fine. I doubt you will have any trouble with normal COL cartridges, but its nice to be sure, and to able to place the bullet as close to the rifling for accuracy as is feasable with that bullet. Once you have a dummy in the correct length, check for functioning in the magazine and through the action. Hope I made this clear enough.

Another neat trick, this one for checking headspace, is to make a dummy round that you know fits, and place one piece of scotch tape at a time on the top of the casehead over the primer. It HAS to be scotch tape as it is the only thing thin enough. Keep applying layers of tape one at a time and closing the bolt until the bolt won't close anymore. Pull off the tape and measure the thickness of it. Thats a pretty good estimator of headspace. Keep in mind that rimmed cases from different manufacturers have different rim thicknesses so if you change cases you will see a slight difference. Another neat trick Mic taught me.

-Tutt

[CowboyTutt]

I get to test fire my loads Friday morning and will report back that night or Saturday AM.

-Tutt

[El Chivo]

Thanks Tutt, I'm printing that last one.

[CowboyTutt]

Update is on my first post!

-Tutt

[Tycer]

Speer # 8 shows 45-49 grains of 3031 with the Spee 220 FN. I know it's shorter, but I think you should be upwards of 2550fps before any fear of overpressure, especially if you are loading to a longer oal to get to 50thou off the lands.

[CowboyTutt]

Tycer, my Hodgdon's manual indicates that a 225 gr. Sierra BTSP went a maximum of 2450 fps with any powder listed, and thats in a 26" barrel, not my 20" barrel. I figure if I get between 2200-2300 fps, thats a top load. Mr. Pig certainly won't know the difference. I don't think I can possibly fit 45 grains of powder in the case even compressed.

-Tutt