Antique 1894 cartridge guides

[Pat C]

Anybody that has an original antique 1894 especially in 30 WCF take a picture of possible of the cartridge guides .Second models with internal screw.

Was talking with Bert H. and he seems to think all antique second models had same cartridge guide. But I thought they were different myself.

[Dusty Texian]

I have one made 1909 is that old enough ? I can post a pic if it is . ,,,DT

[Pat C]

Mainly interested in pre 1899 ,but sure if you can that would be great.

[Pat C]

This is the type guides original thought to be for 38-55.but Bert thinks that guide was used on all pre 1899 calibers.

[Griff]

I read in one of my reference books that different guides were established for the pre1900 mdl 94s, but, in practice they weren't.

[Dusty Texian]

Oh OK , I didn't know the 1894 Model changed during the yrs pre 1898 to 1909 . Mine is not considered an antique by the ATF . The cartridge guides on the 1909 yr. built that I have are screwed from the inside .

[Pat C]

My original referance was Pirkle's book, he shows the guide with the slot as 38-55 only ,32 WS and 32-40 same guide, 30 WCF with its own guide ,and 25-35 with its own.

Each having a different cartridge cutout ,So far this doesn't seem to be true.

The guides above came out of an 1902. 30 WCF that appeared original, So more than likely Bert is correct.

The later modern era 94's have same guides for all calibers as far as I know.

Love to see some early guides in different calibers if anyone has them.

[OldWin]

I have a rifle with a 33xx serial number. It's a 38-55, so I don't know if that would help you. I can get a pic if you like.
I also have 3 more 38-55 rifles and a carbine from around the turn of the century, and a carbine from the 20s (I think), if you'd like a comparison.

[Pat C]

Yes it would, your 38-55 should have the cartridge guide with slot like in my picture . What I'm trying to confirm is did 30 WCF and 32-40 also use that same guide during antique years.

Later on pre war rifles and carbines I've seen had same guides for all calibers ,kinda a universal guide.

The guides above came out of a deluxe 30 WCF pistol gripped rifle lettered to 1902. So based on that Beit's theory is correct.

Pirkle's book states otherwise .

[OldWin]

I have a 32-40 from that era, also.
What I don't have, is an early 30wcf. My oldest is a SRC from 1902 or 3.

[Pat C]

If you have the 32-40 antique as well ,see if you can confirm whether it has the guide with the slot like above.

Thanks!

[OldWin]

Ok Pat...here goes.
I never really paid much attention to this, but it appears to be quite convoluted. My guess is there was no definite change, but a transition over several years and between calibers.
I will make several posts so as to not mix up the pictures with what the rifles are. I looked and the early 4 digit 38-55 must be at my dad's place. I will bet money, however, it has the slot with he spring.

First is a 38-55 rifle from 1899. As you can see, it has the slot and spring in the left guide.

[OldWin]

Next is a 32-40 rifle from 1902. It's hard to tell in the picture, but it doesn't have the slot cut in the guide. It also appears a little thicker than the 38-55 guide from the same year.
The other picture is of a 38-55 from 1902 also. As you can see, it has the slot and spring.

[OldWin]

Here is a 30wcf SRC from 1902. Here, you can see it has the slot, but no spring.

[OldWin]

Here is a half magazine 38-55 SRC from 1921. No slot or spring. Completely phased out by this late date.
My take is when production commenced, the slot and spring was put in for the 38-55 but not the 32-40. It most likely wasn't for the 30-30 when it came along. Like production always does, they look for shortcuts and the trimming of costs. It was discovered that this probably wasn't needed for any of the 94s. We all know Winchester utilized EVERYTHING, and so, these slotted guides showed up intermittently until exhausted.
Anyway, my theory is worth exactly what it cost you.
Let me know if you discover any more info on this subject.

[Pat C]

Thanks for the pictures OldWin, and the additional info.
My 1902 30 WCF has the slotted guide no spring as well.
I find it interesting Pirkle's book on the 1894 shows four different guides labeled by caliber.

[OldWin]

Could be a case where some appear the same unless you measure them.
I still tend to think this was phased out over time. I have a rifle from 1899 that was returned to the factory in the 1930s. It had a model 64 barrel in 32WS and magazine installed, along with a 56 Lyman sight. The bolt was also changed. The guides have no slot or spring. This was obviously not a 32WS when it left the factory. It could have been a 32-40, but that is a rare chambering in my area. I'm willing to bet it was a 38-55 originally. The guides could have been changed, but it's hard to determine.
I will look over some of my other examples and see what they look like.