Is it time for a new......

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Ray
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Is it time for a new......

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Re: Is it time for a new......

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FIE copy of Colt 1849 Pocket Revolver .... .31 caliber
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I feel the need for a duster type coat, a beat up hat, and a cigarillo.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by AmBraCol »

Looking forward to digging out the Ruger Old Army in another month or so. Haven't shot it in far too long. I keep hearing the siren call of an 1851 Navy, 1860 Army and 1861 Navy... elegant weapons from a more civilized era...
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Paul, 1860 Army most elegant ever.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

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Old Savage wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:28 pm Paul, 1860 Army most elegant ever.
I agree 100%.

I got this 44 from a friend in California. It had lain negected for years before he aqcuired it and he cleaned “layer after layer of crud” from gun, the nipples and cylinder. It was loose as a goose he thought it unshootable. He gave it to me as a ‘parts gun’. Thw only markings are Italian blackpowder proofmarks and a date stamp that indicates 1978. It turned into an 'arbor on out' rebuild that came out real good. I gave it to my oldest son, last summer.

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Re: Is it time for a new......

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Re: Is it time for a new......

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An old story from the sixgunner.com website of years past ...

44 Cap & Ball Remington

In 1863 Remington introduced what was to become the major competitor of the Colt 1860 Army Model, the Remington 1861 Army Revolver. These carry the patent date of December 17, 1861 and distinguished from the later models by a lack of safety notches on the rear of the cylinder and by a channel cut along the top of the loading lever. In combat this feature proved undesirable and the New Model (introduced in 1863) did not have it. The New Model carries the patent date of Sept. 14, 1858 and is marked "New Model". It has the safety notches between the nipples on the rear of the cylinder. This allowed the shooter to load all 6 chambers and then lower the hammer between the nipples for safe carry. The New Model was produced until 1875. It was the last of Remington's percussion revolvers.

My Dad had a number of them. The first was a "wallhanger" that had been plowed up by a neighbor. When he was 16 he went to Spokane and purchased a Remington .44 New Model and an 1860 Army Colt. The Remington proved much more accurate than the Colt. However it would also tie up from powder fouling quicker than the Colt. The Colt on the other hand had a problem with fired caps falling off into the rather large open area at the rear of the cylinder when the hammer is pulled to full-cock. A fired cap falling into there bound up the action. The Remington with its closed frame did not have that problem. Many oldtime gunmen would throw the Colt up nearly vertical while cocking the hammer. This had the effect of tossing any loose caps to the rear and kept them from dropping into the gun.

After WW II Dad bought a shipment of Remington .44's from the noted collector and author James Serven. These were all rejects as collector items having poor finishes and in need of mechanical repairs. Dad says he paid $10 each for load of them. He rebuilt some, remodeled others and then put them up for sale. Some were converted to .22 rimfire. Quite a few were cut to 6 1/2" barrel lengths from the original 8" length. Target sights were installed and the guns were sold to target shooters. At least one was converted to .357 Magnum. How it worked out I don't know.

In 1970 I decided I wanted a Remington .44 cap & ball sixgun. By then you could not touch an original Remington for $100 let alone $10 as Dad had done. I eventually bought an Italian-made replica that was imported by Hawes. Two things I immediately found to different from the originals. ONE: the bore was .445" instead of .452" as on the original. TWO: the rifling of the Italian-made gun was a straight twist instead of gain twist as in the Remingtons. And while it was a fun gun to shoot it did not live up to my expectations either as to power or accuracy.

In order to improve it I set about doing some modifications. The first was a decent set of sights. I silver-soldered a Smith & Wesson target front sight onto the barrel and then cut the shallow rear notch so that it became a nice square rather than the "V" as on the original. Good sights helped a lot. Measuring the chambers I found them to be extra tight, shrinking the ball a lot before it was even fired. The barrel proved to be tight at the throat and loose at the muzzle. I started with barrel, screwing it out of the frame and reaming a long, tapered throat in it. The "throat" was about 3" long, tapering from .456" a the breech down to .445". I reamed the chambers so I cold seat a .457" diameter ball in them.

The results were more along the lines of what I had hoped for. Velocity increased and accuracy improved. Your hands and ears could tell the difference. Before the change the gun would BOOM when it when off. Afterwards, a full load would make a CRACK when it fired. Shrinking the ball .011" really increased the efficiency of the powder. Apparent recoil was heavier also, although the cap & ball guns never really kicked like the big-bore cartridge guns do.

I experimented some with both 2Fg and 3Fg black powder as well as with Pyrodex. Pyrodex gave the 2nd highest velocities. The highest velocity was recorded using a Duplex load of 5 gr. 3Fg Black and a cylinder-full of Pyrodex on top of it with a ball compressed tightly onto it. You are on your own if you try this. I am not suggesting that you do so. This is for information purposes only. If you blow up your gun do not try to say I told you you could do it! One thing I did find out. Use too much Black powder with the Pyrodex and the hammer would blow back to full cock- while the ball was exiting the barrel. It was kind of hard on the lockwork. If you build too much pressure; not only does the hammer blow back, the top of the gun can depart to regions unknown.

The oldtimers who carried these guns in war and for self-defense were not in any way under-armed. They have a lot more power than one would think if they had not used one. I once saw a man shot with an 1860 Army .44. The ball took him in the lower stomach and went clean through. It bounced off the kitchen table, went through a cupboard door and stopped in a loaf of bread where we found it later. Then man dropped immediately. They got him to the hospital in time to save him but he was down for a long time. I do not know if he ever fully recovered.

One Javelina season I took my old .44 Remington-copy after the little pigs. I hunted the canyons until I spotted a herd, made a 300-yard stalk and got to within 30- 40 yards. One large pig was scratching his rear on a rock outcropping and was mostly sideways to me. I lined up the sights behind the right front shoulder and touched it off. Peering through the large cloud of smoke in front of me I could make out the pig, laying on the ground kicking. The ball had taken him behind the right shoulder, ranging forward and exiting the left side of the neck behind the ear. An instant "lights out". It was a fitting use of the fine old .44 cap & ball sixgun.

Some of the imports now have the gain-twist rifling of the originals. These are target-grade guns and you will pay accordingly. Very fine accuracy can be had with these. Seems we have come full circle. The Remington was popular in its day. It grew old and was almost forgotten. Then it was revived. I'm kind of glad. It is a pretty good old gun.

Chronographed velocities at 7 feet from muzzle to first screen
.445" diameter ball
38 gr. 2Fg ..........................951 fps
.
.456" diameter ball
38 gr. 2Fg............................992 fps
38 gr. 3Fg..........................1036 fps
full load of Pyrodex P.........1087 fps
Remington-Javelina.JPG
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Scott Tschirhart »

My first sixgun was an Italian .36 Navy. I shot a lot of rabbits with that gun (using Kentucky windage) and a round ball topped with a little Crisco.

It was not a very well built gun (this was the 1970s) but it did shoot to the same place every time I dropped the hammer. A useful tool.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

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Jim, those velocities were nothing to sneeze at. Sure, they were not in the magnum smokeless range, but they were not dawdling.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Sixgun »

1862 Colt Police...built in 1873, a very late one, possibly one of the last. Beer can accurate to 50 yards.

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Forgot about this one....Rogers and Spencer cartouched in 1865. I never could figure out how to load it and nor did anyone else. Thing is unfired for 156 years.

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Re: Is it time for a new......

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Old Savage wrote: Fri Apr 23, 2021 12:28 pm Paul, 1860 Army most elegant ever.
For me it's a toss up between the 1860 and 1861, with a bit of a nod towards the '61 due to the unrebated cylinder.
1861_Colt_Navy.jpg
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Wouldn't argue, splitting hairs finer than I split the them. The Colt Model P in there too.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

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Jim, thanks for resurrecting that article on the .44 Remington. Seems you were doing "Taylor throating" more than 50 years ago!
My first handgun of any kind was a Hawes 1851 Colt with brass frame. I was in high school and had to convince Dad to let me buy it from a little gun shop in the tiny redwood logging town of Scotia in Humboldt County, CA. We lived in Arcata at the time.
My memory is that it was in the neighborhood of $40 new. Every time I shot that sixgun with high school friends and later college, it was a clinic on loading and firing a cap and ball revolver, and every one of the guys who shot it were tickled with the thing and with the associated history.
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Jim, thanks for reviving the article. I've thought a lot on that since first reading it back around the turn of the century. Your use of the gas from your duplex loads to cock the revolver is reminiscent of JM Browning's experiments in self loading arms, just coming from the opposite end from what he used. :lol: I sold my first Ruger Old Army to eliminate the urge for more experimentation. Now I THINK I've matured enough to not ignore certain warnings on them and am looking forward to making a bit of smoke this summer. Those old sixguns got a lot of folks into shooting, either the originals or the reproductions. I remember one of my uncles and his Italian built 1851 Navy back in the late 70's. He'd cast the balls himself, melting the lead on a Coleman stove. The entire process was fascinating to a kid, hope my grandson enjoys it as much this summer as I did back then.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Hawkeye2 »

"Forgot about this one....Rogers and Spencer cartouched in 1865. I never could figure out how to load it and nor did anyone else. Thing is unfired for 156 years."

The Rogers & Spencer loads exactly like a Remington or Whitney.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Jay Bird »

Six was being sarcastic. :D Only someone from Joe bidens family could not load near 200 year old gun technology. The gun is as crispy as the day it left the factory and for obvious reasons good ole Six don't want to put burn marks on the face of the cylinder.

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Thank Birdman...I just tuned in.---6
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Old No7 »

Gee, the Ysabel Kid ought to be along here soon since it's about Cap 'n Ball revolvers, but maybe he's busy...

Anyway, I'll play this game. :wink:

( Click any image to enlarge )
Here's my 1860 Army and 1862 Pocket Police
Colt 1860 Army and 1862 Police 02 (Small).jpg

And my 1861 Navy
Colt 1861 Navy - 3rd Gen 03 (Medium).jpg

Followed by my venerable Ruger Old Army
Old Army Stag Grips 02 (Medium).jpg

Which reminds me -- I gotta get out and make some smoke!

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Re: Is it time for a new......

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I've been trying to ignore this thread... :( as I was very much addicted to cap n ball revolvers.
Luckily I only had black powder pistols when our over zealous government banned all the others. I converted a few pistol shooters to give BP a try as they always wanted to have a go with mine. Then I moved away and I sold my pistols and revolvers thinking I wouldn't need them anymore........wrong..... :roll:
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gamekeeper wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:51 am ........and I sold my pistols and revolvers thinking I wouldn't need them anymore........wrong..... :roll:
"Need" is the wrong word John -- "want" is key!

That's how I justify what I add to my collection. :wink:

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Old No7 wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 10:11 am
gamekeeper wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 7:51 am ........and I sold my pistols and revolvers thinking I wouldn't need them anymore........wrong..... :roll:
"Need" is the wrong word John -- "want" is key!

That's how I justify what I add to my collection. :wink:

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Darryl, I couldn't agree more but every acquisition here requires hoops and conditions to comply with. Even a flintlock pistol has to be used on an approved MOD range.
It just makes life suck with big brother watching your every move, well that is the ones he can see... :wink:
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Post by Griff »

My 2nd Gen Colt 1851s:
'51Navy&Bowie.jpg
I had them converted to Ruger plungers & coil handsprings, Manhattan gates and use SliXshot nipples for utter reliability!
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That dwarfs even a Ruger Old Army, which is the largest modern cap and ball I can think of. How does it compare to a S&W X-frame? That's probably the only true competitor for size.
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No wonder those were usually carried in saddle holsters. That much steel attached to your waist with a leather belt would make you tilt like a drunken 3 mast sailor.
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Ray wrote: Thu May 06, 2021 9:31 am This is a bit different.....

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002297696?pid=131995
Those are intriguing. Planning to get one to shoot your Pyrodex pellets through? :D I've seen various iterations of pelleted black powder substitutes, but never have tried any of them.
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Haven't shot Pyrodex in any form since sometime in the late 20th Century. Those 50 grain pellets look interesting in a ROA. I'd probably want to smear a bit of Crisco or Bore Butter or other lubricant over the mouth of the chamber, don't know how much of that would be necessary and how much would be "old habits die hard". :lol: There's a lot to be said for preformed charges, whether wrapped in paper or solid pellets like those.
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That, sir, is a cute little popper.
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Ray wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:40 pm
AmBraCol wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:03 pm That, sir, is a cute little popper.
I know he is just pitching his own design of moulds (out of stock) but while he was at it he could have tested round balls for the good of the obsolete revolver shooting public.....
Well, shucks. I guess you'll have to do a video yourself. :-) Do you have a Baby Dragoon or 1849 Pocket in the collection? It'd be interesting (to me, anyway) to see a comparison between one of those and the 32 S&W, 32 SWL and 32 ACP as far as penetration, etc goes. Running the typical loads of the time, of course, not modern hyperwonderblast loads. The 32 S&W and 32 SWL filled the same purpose as the 1849 models, but in self contained ammunition. The 32 ACP came out for the same basic use as well, but in a self loading, flat packing package. Ijust read where some thug up in the NW US bought the farm to the tune of steel cased 9mm hardball. Folks would be surprised to find out how many have had similar experiences to the tune of the lowly 31 and 32 calibers.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by gamekeeper »

AmBraCol wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:09 am
Ray wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:40 pm
AmBraCol wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 10:03 pm That, sir, is a cute little popper.
I know he is just pitching his own design of moulds (out of stock) but while he was at it he could have tested round balls for the good of the obsolete revolver shooting public.....
Well, shucks. I guess you'll have to do a video yourself. :-) Do you have a Baby Dragoon or 1849 Pocket in the collection? It'd be interesting (to me, anyway) to see a comparison between one of those and the 32 S&W, 32 SWL and 32 ACP as far as penetration, etc goes. Running the typical loads of the time, of course, not modern hyperwonderblast loads. The 32 S&W and 32 SWL filled the same purpose as the 1849 models, but in self contained ammunition. The 32 ACP came out for the same basic use as well, but in a self loading, flat packing package. Ijust read where some thug up in the NW US bought the farm to the tune of steel cased 9mm hardball. Folks would be surprised to find out how many have had similar experiences to the tune of the lowly 31 and 32 calibers.
I would love to see a full comparison test using ballistic gel. I have wondered why the Colt .31 revolvers sold so well if they were as puny as a lot of people think.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by gamekeeper »

The last Cap n Ball revolver I had was a Uberti Colt .31 pocket Pistol, I used 777 and mostly RB, alas I had to sell it when I moved away from my gun club, and never really had chance to test it completely. I'm thinking of getting an original antique Colt as the UK law does not require membership of a registered gun club for ownership of antiques as long as you don't shoot it, as if I would.. :lol:
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by AmBraCol »

I would love to see a full comparison test using ballistic gel. I have wondered why the Colt .31 revolvers sold so well if they were as puny as a lot of people think.
Standards have changed, plus we have access to vastly improved ammunition AND the means to do some comparisons and analysis. I just read "The American Rifle" by Townsend Whelen and found his experiments and experience intriguing. Can't help but wonder what he'd think of the rifles and ammunition available (theoretically) today. Another problem is that we're swamped with "experts" and magazine writers who apparently only live to promote "the latest and greatest". If you think back to the historical context of the 1849 models, the only other options were single shot muzzle loaders, large "Dragoon" revolvers and the ungainly "Pepperbox" revolvers. Something and small, compact and portable as one of the little 31's would have been just what the doctor ordered. Easily packable, multiple shots, relatively light weight. And in those pre-antibiotic days no one wanted to be perforated by ANYTHING as the risk of infection and sepsis was so great. Later on as more models were available and shooters got a chance to compare different pistols and calibers and ammunition, folks started to notice that some were better than others. But just like today the vast majority of the public had no clue as to "which one's better". Cheap and available beats better but unaffordable for 90% or more of the public.

I'm appalled at the ignorance of the general public regarding the basics of firearms and what can be done safely. And then I remember - few people have studied the subject matter and most are influenced by Hollyweird and the boobtube cop shows and the nonsense they often pawn off as "wisdom".

All that to say, I should probably get back to preparing for my trip tonight, but decided to drivel a bit of random bits of disconnected thought here in the meantime. :-) The little Colts sold well because they were portable and relatively affordable. They gave people a sense of security and were a better option for the general public than some of the competitors of the time.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by jeepnik »

AmBraCol wrote: Wed May 19, 2021 8:14 am
I would love to see a full comparison test using ballistic gel. I have wondered why the Colt .31 revolvers sold so well if they were as puny as a lot of people think.
Standards have changed, plus we have access to vastly improved ammunition AND the means to do some comparisons and analysis. I just read "The American Rifle" by Townsend Whelen and found his experiments and experience intriguing. Can't help but wonder what he'd think of the rifles and ammunition available (theoretically) today. Another problem is that we're swamped with "experts" and magazine writers who apparently only live to promote "the latest and greatest". If you think back to the historical context of the 1849 models, the only other options were single shot muzzle loaders, large "Dragoon" revolvers and the ungainly "Pepperbox" revolvers. Something and small, compact and portable as one of the little 31's would have been just what the doctor ordered. Easily packable, multiple shots, relatively light weight. And in those pre-antibiotic days no one wanted to be perforated by ANYTHING as the risk of infection and sepsis was so great. Later on as more models were available and shooters got a chance to compare different pistols and calibers and ammunition, folks started to notice that some were better than others. But just like today the vast majority of the public had no clue as to "which one's better". Cheap and available beats better but unaffordable for 90% or more of the public.

I'm appalled at the ignorance of the general public regarding the basics of firearms and what can be done safely. And then I remember - few people have studied the subject matter and most are influenced by Hollyweird and the boobtube cop shows and the nonsense they often pawn off as "wisdom".

All that to say, I should probably get back to preparing for my trip tonight, but decided to drivel a bit of random bits of disconnected thought here in the meantime. :-) The little Colts sold well because they were portable and relatively affordable. They gave people a sense of security and were a better option for the general public than some of the competitors of the time.
Remember, just being shot, even if not immediately fatal could result in death from either infection or medical intervention. During the Civil War S&W No. 1's were popular backup guns. No one wanted to get shot even with what amounted to a .22 short.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by piller »

It really wasn't until cleaning the Surgeons hands became accepted before sepsis started to be defeated. The first English Surgeon to believe in the germ theory was incarcerated for his making the students wash their hands. The fact that his patients survived was attributed to Satanic Practices.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Grizz »

Chronographed velocities at 7 feet from muzzle to first screen
.445" diameter ball
38 gr. 2Fg ..........................951 fps
.
.456" diameter ball
38 gr. 2Fg............................992 fps
38 gr. 3Fg..........................1036 fps
full load of Pyrodex P.........1087 fps
what is the weight of these round balls?

i fully appreciate the fascination of a handgun with a built-in reloading press, but i've never had the pleasure of shooting one. may i have a reset?
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by piller »

Unlike so many young people who do things just to post on youtube, I do not want to be on the receiving end of any thing such as that .31 caliber pistol. I just never found getting injured to be fun.
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Griff »

Anything Pyrodex will not touch my guns... took me three days of cleaning to finally stop the flash rush from appearing. I'd scrub, dry, apply a coating of oil, thinking, "done"... look at the gun the next day and see a coating of flash rust down the bore and in the chambers... cleaned and repeated... again the 3rd day. After that I loaded the guns with Goex, fired off a cylinder full and cleaned as I regularly did... no more flash rust. Nope, I've won several lbs of that stuff over the years as door prizes, and either gave it away or just poured it out on the flowers. Didn't help them very much either! :P
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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Ray »

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Re: Is it time for a new......

Post by Grizz »

thanks Ray
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