Unanswerable question on black powder

[mikld]

I got into a "discussion" about loading black powder in a modern bottle necked cartridge; .223 Rem. After the first post about how absolutely stupid the idea was and several attacks on the person suggesting it, the forum group seemed to jump on the bandwagon and post how stupid the person recommending it is, and it should never be done. I asked a simple question; "Why". I could not get an answer. Those opposed to the idea danced around with stuff like "well if it isn't in a reloading manual is shouldn't be done", "it's too dirty", "it wouldn't cycle an AR", etc.. I continued to try and get an answer, but there was no one that could give a simple, positive answer to "Why?".(or even a complex answer). The best, most honest answer and from a long time, well respected member of the forum was "Because"...

So, does anyone have any ideas or better yet facts, as to why a .223 should not be loaded with black powder (other than "it's dirty", "it won't give good velocities", etc.)? Is it dangerous? I know velocities won't be near smokeless velocities, but is there a concrete reason?

BTW, I have no intention of trying this, I just asked a question that seemed to be unanswerable...

[Hawkeye2]

I see no reason that it can't be done, however...... The small bore with a fast twist will foul extremely fast and the bullets would need large grease groves and a black powder compatible lube like SPG. I don't know if it could be gotten to cycle or not but it would plug up the gas system fast. If you feel up to trying let us know how it worked.

[claybob86]

"Because'
"Because why?"
"Just because"

Hey, it worked when we were little kids!


Only thing I can think of is wondering how the BP, being an explosive, would react to the confining effect of the bottleneck. I know, 38-40 and 44-40 and maybe others are bottlenecks, but not to the degree of a .223...

[JimT]

It will work. Not many times. I've shot blackpowder in a lot of cartridges not originally intended for it. I've shot blackpowder in lots of things not intended for it. Surprisingly, I still have all my fingers, my eyes and most of my eyebrows.

[J Miller]

"Because'
"Because why?"
"Just because"

Hey, it worked when we were little kids!


Only thing I can think of is wondering how the BP, being an explosive, would react to the confining effect of the bottleneck. I know, 38-40 and 44-40 and maybe others are bottlenecks, but not to the degree of a .223...

The .303 British was originally loaded with black powder and a 215gr RN jacketed bullet when it was introduced in the 1880s. later the powder was switched to Cordite.
The 32 Win Special although factory loaded with smokeless was designed with a rifling twist that would make it work with BP reloads if the shooter did not have any of the new fangled smokeless stuff available.
BP in bottle necked cartridges is nothing new or exotic.

As far as the 5.56 / 223 goes, I see no reason it shouldn't be used if the shooter so desires. He's gotta clean that AR himself though, I sure ain't gonna do it.

Joe

[Blaine]

Like MLs, do cartridge BP loads have to have the bullet seated firmly on the powder?

[FWiedner]

Not all .223s are semi auto.

What about in a single shot rifle like a TC or a Handi?

[J Miller]

Like MLs, do cartridge BP loads have to have the bullet seated firmly on the powder?

I have that many times. Never loaded any BP with an air gap to see if it were true or not.

Joe

[Bill in Oregon]

Blaine, yes. No air space in a BP cartridge, please, and most like a bit of compression. As to bottlenecks, many of the most successful early BP cartridges were bottlenecked. Thinking of .43 Spanish, .44-77, .40-70 and .40-90 Sharps Bottle Necked, et al. In my experience, the BN cartridges do tend to foul in the throat area more quickly than straight-walled cases.

[Merle]

"Because'
"Because why?"
"Just because"

Hey, it worked when we were little kids!


Only thing I can think of is wondering how the BP, being an explosive, would react to the confining effect of the bottleneck. I know, 38-40 and 44-40 and maybe others are bottlenecks, but not to the degree of a .223...

I used it in a 6.5 Carcano round which was intended for an 1881 vintage Vetterli Vitali.
The rifle was made during black powder days, but converted to a smokeless powder round as an emergency issue in WW1.
After much consultation it was recommended to use a load where the case was full enough to slightly compress the bullet when seated - no air space was the repeated warning.
It shot just fine.

[Pete44ru]

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The responses here sure do answer the question, including the knowledge level on the forum referred to in the OP.




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[mikld]

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The responses here sure do answer the question, including the knowledge level on the forum referred to in the OP.




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Me thinks ye be right! I was taken aback by the level of criticism and attacks heaped on the guy that suggested it (actually the OP posted a link to a feller that suggested/tried it). I could not get one straight answer. Why? No straight answer. Dangerous? No answer at all.

Thanks fellers, keep 'em coming...

[Chuck 100 yd]

Black powder is classified as an explosive, that does not mean that it explodes. It burns very fast but nothing like det cord.
BP burnes at the same rate when confined as it does in open air. Smokeless burns at a much higher rate when confined than when in the open. Fire a BP gun at night and watch the flames and burning grains come out of the muzzle after the bullet is long gone.

Loading BP with a 100% + volume charge is the standard practice. That said, a friend of mine loads a collar button type bullet in his .45-70 with only 5gr. fffg BP and NO case filler for small game. That load is super accurate. He has used that load for the 40 years that I have known him.

[PaperPatch]

Yes, BP can be loaded and fired in a 223....like Jim mentioned though; not for long.

Years ago, I loaded a half-dozen 30-30 cartridges with BP and some cast bullets to experiment. I single fed them into my 94, and commenced firing. The second round seated with some resistance...the third round would not seat at all until the fouling was flushed out.

Some time later I repeated the same with a .444. Same results...smokeless chamberings will not accomodate the fouling.

[Griff]

If the primer will ignite it, BP works just as intended in cartridges not necessarily designed for it. One thing I've found, is that most bottle-necked cartridges don't like their BP compressed. Filled to the base of the bullet, yes... but not compressed. Both the .30-30 and .40-90SBN foul a lot worse when the powder is compressed. Neither seem to increase either velocity or accuracy with compressed charges... I had it explained to me as that the "top" of the load is compressed more than the bottom of the powder column, and it tends to burn a tad slower, and a bottle neck makes that "wad" of powder difficult to get out of the case and down the barrel. You increase the amount of powder that actually burns AFTER it's left the barrel, not aiding your velocity, and increasing the amount of fouling. Bottle neck cases do improve slightly when 3F is used. But, again, don't compress the powder, it'll get tighter than 2F will, making the gain of 3F over 2F negligible.

[Old Ironsights]

Why are we even talking about poodle shooter cartridges?

Let's see what a REAL Main Battle Rifle can do with Holy Black:

http://www.kegisland.com/black-powder-308--cetme.html


Cleaning...


5.56? Boooring...

[hondo1892]

I've always been told that BP burns slower when confined and faster in open air. I don't know because I don't have any equipment to test. But all the black powder books written say bp is slower burning when confined and I always assumed they received there information from the powder industry. But like every one says no air gap between the bullet and powder. I think the reason some of the old cartridge rifles have rings in the barrels is some one left an air gap between bullet and powder. I know it will put a ring in a muzzle loader barrel when the bullet isn't seated on the powder.

[AJMD429]

Lots of similar "unanswerable" questions in healthcare, and doctors are just as eager to 'flame' anyone daring to challenge 'evidence-based' orthodoxy.

Way back when a nurse first suggested it just might be a good idea if the surgeons washed the blood and feces and other stuff off their (ungloved) hands in between surgeries and delivering babies, she was pretty much told she was a dangerous fool....

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Black powder is much slower burning. That's why there's such a muzzle flash and barrels getting hot to the touch quicker. A good portion of the powder is still burning down range.
Example;
http://www.alloutdoor.com/wp-content/up ... 60x439.jpg

[jhrosier]

I have, in the past, fired black powder in a couple of modern cartridges.
Cleanup was a PITA and I am strongly discouraged from repeating the process.
The .303 Brit was fired with a heavy bullet and a heavily compressed charge of BP, from a Jungle Carbine.
The results were heavy recoil, virtually no smoke, and a couple of the cases separated.
The .45 ACP was fired through a Colt Gold Cup with a case full of BP.
The gun functioned vigorously.

In each case, the accuracy declined rapidly.

Jack

[J Miller]

Just a story of hijinks done eons ago.

When shooting at an early CACTUS Combat League IPSC match in Phx, a friend and I slipped a round of .45 ACP loaded with BP into the magazine of another competitor while he wasn't looking.
When his turn to shoot came up he ran his string flawlessly until the BP round went off. That momentarily rattled him as he wondered if his gun had exploded. The look on his face was priceless when it went from shock to PO'd when realized his gun wasn't hurt and that we had pulled a trick on him. He still out shot us on that stage cos you can't shoot straight while you're laughing your butt off.

The BP charge in the 1880s .303 Brit was I think 70 or 80 grains of very compressed powder. That was for the Lee-Metford rifles IIRC. That was the MK I ball and although I've shot a gazillion rounds of milsurp .303 I've never found any MK I ball to try out.
I imagine that would be a bit stout out of the Jungle Carbine.

Joe

[marlinman93]

The biggest issue with shooting BP in a .223 is it will give erratic burn rates, so velocities and accuracy will suffer. Bottleneck cartridges in general don't work as well with BP as they do with smokeless, but larger case capacities, and larger calibers get by better with BP. Smaller cases, with bottleneck designs just don't burn consistently, and past history has shown they aren't accurate.
Stevens came out with their .25-20 Single Shot cartridge, and shooters found it proved to be not too accurate with BP back then. Stevens solution was to meet shooter's concerns by bringing out a second similar caliber, the .25-21 Stevens, which was much better with BP because it was a straight wall case.
I don't think that BP in a .223 is a good idea from a sense of getting good results, but I don't think it's dangerous. The only question I have is why?

[piller]

Lots of similar "unanswerable" questions in healthcare, and doctors are just as eager to 'flame' anyone daring to challenge 'evidence-based' orthodoxy.

Way back when a nurse first suggested it just might be a good idea if the surgeons washed the blood and feces and other stuff off their (ungloved) hands in between surgeries and delivering babies, she was pretty much told she was a dangerous fool....

Doc AJ, it is that way in lots of human endeavors. Many idiots think anything that is different from what they know is dangerous or will cause problems.

I don't know much about black powder, so this topic is a total learning experience for me.

[Carlsen Highway]

I have shot black powder in a .303 with a 180 grain jacketed bullet. I simply filled it up with 3F, I dont believe there was much compression, just a bit. Accuracy after three shots went totally out the window, as I had no lube (although I couldnt find where the original load had lube either, but then the rifle would have had metford rifling, and I had a Lee Enfeild.)
I wouldnt think for a second there would be anything dangrous with loading a .223 with black powder.