U.S. pastor jailed for possession of ammunition in Russia

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:14 pm

This is disturbing. Which of our presidential candidates would help someone out in this position, vs. let him rot in jail?

http://gunowners.org/a042408.htm

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:29 pm

I don't have to read too many stories like this one to simply decide not to travel to any foreign country. If you get in a big jam while there, the US officials will most likely do nothing to get you back. And the butt heads of the world seem to really enjoy jailing and keeping our people on the flimsiest of charges.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:46 pm

Why should this guy go free?

Come on, you just cannot carry ammo just anywhere. Go to Mexico with a box of ammo and you are going to jail. It does not matter whether you saw a sign or not.

Only a complete idiot or someone who was smuggling would get himself in this bind. He is too smart to be an idiot, so he must be a smuggler. Bad deal for him.

The fact that he may be a pastor should have nothing to do with it. It is merely something to help tug at your heartstrings to make you sign a petition.

The role of the US Government is to make sure that US citizens are being treated fairly, not to get them off from a legitimate criminal charge.

Look at it this way, if I am a _______minister from France and I bring a kilo of cocaine into the US.......are you gonna complain if I end up in jail? Would it make any difference if I said that I did not know it was illegal in the US?

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:53 pm

U.S. minister gets 3 years for one box of bullets
April 21, 2008

MOSCOW - A Moscow court on Monday convicted a U.S. minister of smuggling hunting ammunition into Russia and sentenced him to more than three years in prison.

"I'm very disappointed. It's a strange sentence for one box of hunting bullets," said Phillip Miles of Christ Community Church in Conway, S.C.

He has been in custody since his arrest Feb. 3, several days after arriving in Moscow. The court sentenced him to serve three years and two months in prison.

Miles has said he brought the .300-caliber cartridges for a friend who had recently bought a Winchester rifle -- a gun that is found rarely in Russia. He said he did not know bringing such ammunition into Russia was illegal.

Judge Olga Drozdova accepted in her 20-minute summation that Miles had brought the ammunition for a friend, "as they are both inveterate hunters."

The 20 cartridges were not initially found when he flew into Moscow. They were detected later as airport security put his luggage through an X-ray machine while he was on his way to check in for a flight to Perm, a city in Siberia.

His lawyer said the sentence was surprisingly severe. "I hoped he would only be found guilty of the illegal possession of ammunition," Vladimir Ryakhovsky said.

Miles will remain in a Moscow jail until the appeal, which will be filed within 10 days, Ryakhovsky said.

Miles' interpreter struggled to keep up with the judge's delivery and stopped at various points. At one point, Miles tapped the interpreter's elbow to remind her to resume.

Miles said he did not check whether Russian laws differed from U.S. laws. But Drozdova said the court could not condone ignorance of Russian customs regulations and noted Miles had visited the country more than 10 times.
She also stressed repeatedly that information on baggage limitations was available in the airport in both English and Russian. Ryakhovsky said, however, that leaflets in the airport contained no specific references to a prohibition on taking cartridges onto flights.

ASSOCIATED PRESS

Not exactly a babe in the woods. He had visited Russia more than 10 times.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:02 pm

No matter how Stupid, Laws are ALWAYS more important than People/Freedom.

Exactly as the Constitution has taught us.

Got it.

ScottT · Post by **ScottT** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:11 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:No matter how Stupid, Laws are ALWAYS more important than People/Freedom.

Exactly as the Constitution has taught us.

Got it.

Not everyone in the world lives under the protection of the United States Constitution. When in Russia, you have to abide by Russian law. Just like a Russian would have to abide by our law if here.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:26 pm

Scott T: BINGO!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:05 pm

Still, a box or two of ammunition isn't exactly like a 'kilo or two of cocaine' in terms of its damage potential.

I agree with the idea of not traveling outside the U.S., but some people's jobs or callings may require them to do so.

I just think it's amazing how when it is a basically honest individual committing a non-violent 'gun' crime, our media and courts seldom grant any leniency, yet if it is an animal rights advocate burning down a farmhouse, an abortion advocate assaulting a right-to-lifer, or a journalist using fake I.D. to buy a machine gun from a class three dealer, they'll say how it is 'technically' against the law.

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:43 pm

It doesn't matter if it was one box or 100 cases. He was inviolation of their law. It is the visa holders responsibility to know and follow the laws of the country they travel in. He screwed up and now he faces the music.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:58 pm

What ScottT said. When we travel we represent the rest of the country... what a poor image he set. I am saddened. I also believe in his well-meaning intentions, but... just as in this country, ignorance of the law is no excuse. (That last bit will probably come back to haunt me one day, as I'm certainly ignorant of a bunch of laws!)

jazman · Post by **jazman** » Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:59 pm

[quote="Griff"]What ScottT said. When we travel we represent the rest of the country... what a poor image he set.

Plus one, big time.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:23 am

I guess what everyone is saying is JESSE JACKSON aint gonna go get him and bring him home! I would give him sympathy however, I have never flown into or out of a forign country that I was not provided a CUSTOMS FORM in ENGLISH where I declared any questionable items I may have as well as be advised what items were indeed considered to be illegal for transport.

However, due to health issues and the fact that he is not a Russian Citizen but a US Citizen; I would prefer to see him returned to the US to face any legal action that he well deserves!

I sure hope that guy was a GOOD FRIEND he was bringing the rounds for!

Jeeps · Post by **Jeeps** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:38 am

20 rounds?....Smuggler?....

ROFLMAO

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:50 am

For the most part I agree JEEP.
I cant hardly compare him to a drug smuggler, nor was he trying to smuggle enough ammo to support a revolution. However, he did break the law! He claims ignorance, however after living in a forign country for so long I seriously doubt he may have been as ignorant as he may claim.
Even in the US we say IGNORANCE OF THE LAW IS NO EXCUSE!!!

bigbore442001 · Post by **bigbore442001** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 5:53 am

We all here think that the law itself is quite stupid. But as Scott stated, it is their law and people have to abide by it otherwise you have the consequences of violating it.

Before entering another country such as Canada or Mexico I go through my truck three times to make sure there isn't even a spent 22 lr case in it.

We need to remember that other nations aren't like the US.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:13 am

This is why so many people have worked so hard to move to the USofA. We have our problems but...

I don't know how an "inveterate hunter" could have missed those prohibitions. I rather think he set himself up.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:25 am

It's sad that this poor dope got caught. But, only a dope would travel to ANY foreign country carrying guns or ammo without checking the laws of that country first. Perhaps he was laboring under the so-called liberal idea that since his intentions were good, no one would hold him responsible for his actions.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:36 am

The sentence is unjustly harsh, I agree, BUT unless someone has been smoking something, they should have the sense to have big red flags about flying around internationally with live ammo in their luggage. You can bet I would jolly well check and double-check to make sure there would be absolutely NO problems before I would ever blithely pack even one live round in my luggage. As much as I sympathize with this fellow, I really do have to question his sensibilities. I hope he gets out soon.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:48 am

OK, guys. Here's a take on it by a "Pastor", "Missionary", or whatever you want to call me, who has spent the greater part of his life overseas. When I was growing up it was common place for us to toss a box or five of 22 LR into the suitcase when we were returning to Brazil from the US. That was a different time, different place and different circumstances. The world has changed and over the past forty years the laws about firearms and ammunition have gotten TOUGH all around the world. Shucks, look at the changes on our own home turf - the US of A. 41 years ago you could order almost anything you wanted and the USPS would deliver it to your door. Then we got saddled with the gun control act of 1968 - and so much for freedom.

Now, to those of us who grew up around guns and ammunition, "one box of hunting loads for a rifle" is no big deal. Shucks, most of us will go through several of them on one range outing - in the US. And to us, 20 rounds is NOTHING. BUT YOU FORGET THAT HE"S NOT IN THE US OF A! Let's look at the ammunition. First, it's "hunting rounds" and so it's loaded with "dum dum bullets" (that's international press speak for expanding tip ammunition) which everyone KNOWS only exists to produce huge and gaping wounds in innocent flesh. NO ONE but a POTENTIAL MURDERER would EVER need such ammunition!!! And 20 ROUNDS!!! That's ALMOST TWO DOZEN people that could be killed with this HORRIBLE, MURDEROUS AMMUNITION!!!

That is the way the world looks at what this pastor had in his suitcase. It's pretty much the way our own nation looks at a rifle with less than a 16" barrel or a shotgun under 18" or under 26" over all length. If you stop and think about it - our OWN gun laws are asinine. What about the prohibition on the use of "suppressors" or "silencers"? Just think about the lessening of noise contamination at rifle ranges around the country - if only we'd allow (and encourage) our citizens to use silencers.

Now, why SHOULD he be returned to the US to face charges here? He didn't break US law - unless he didn't declare the ammunition in his suitcase at the airport. He broke Russian law and that's where he should be punished. Just think, what if you're in Kalifornia and you get pulled over for speeding and they decide to search your car "because they can" and you've just given them "probable cause" - and inside your trunk they find an "AK 47 Machine gun" (it matters not to Kalifornia that it's a semi auto only version of the famous battle rifle) - you'll be dealt with by Kalifornia's law system and that's where you'll do time. Or the same could be New Jersey, Washington DC or many other parts of our own nation. Don't expect to be extradited back to Texas or where ever else you are from so you can be punished there, you'll do time where you broke the laws - which are probably very different from your own home state.

I quit packing ammo and such in a LONG time ago, when it finally sunk in that the US is the only nation I've been to that has the second amendment or equivalent protecting the citizens' right to keep and bear arms. So now I live in Colombia, S. America - where we are allowed to purchase up to 100 rounds of ammunition per firearm per six month period - IF we can afford it. And all ammunition sold is of the non-expanding type. 38 spl RNL will set you back $50 a box. The same for 9mm FMJ and you can pretty much forget about any rifle calibers unless you are VERY well connected and can swing the yearly permit renewal for a 223 or 308 caliber rifle.

He should have done his home work prior to packing. Now he's paying the price for not doing so. Shucks, Colombia's penalty would be 5 years in the pen - he's getting off light.

In February I brought back a CVA Kentucky kit rifle that needs reassembly (it was a gift from a friend who knew it'd go to an appreciative home) and also a Gamo CFX air rifle. They were both declared at the airport in the US, so that end was legal. Colombia does NOT regulate such items so I was legal on this end. STILL I had problems because of the ignorance of the customs folks. The next day I had to take a letter as well as extracts from the applicable Colombian statutes which state clearly that black powder long arms and air guns are NOT regulated nor prohibited and can be possessed and transported freely inside Colombia. It paid off to know the law and stand up for my right as a sports man to possess such items.

Yes, it looks horrible what he's going through to OUR eyes. But our own nation is going down that path and we'd better batten the hatches and settle in for a prolonged storm over our rights. We seem to think 'It can never happen here" - but that's not true. Just look at all the hits the second amendment has taken in the US ever since the Sullivan Act (not to mention the old cow towns where visitors were denied the use of their weapons in the 19th century) so it obviously CAN happen in the US as well - it has already started...

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:55 am

When in Rome.......

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:05 am

Hmmmmmmmmmm. You know the saying "God works in mysterious ways?" Well, maybe this was God's way of spreading his word in Russian Prisons. If that's so, the minister in this case should bear his burden without complaint as he was sent there by God to spread the word.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 8:15 am

Modoc ED wrote:Hmmmmmmmmmm. You know the saying "God works in mysterious ways?" Well, maybe this was God's way of spreading his word in Russian Prisons. If that's so, the minister in this case should bear his burden without complaint as he was sent there by God to spread the word.

Now Modoc, I don't know you well enough to know if you're being facetious or not. But what I tell folks when they say "Why don't you carry in a thousand primers or so?" is "I'm not ready to start a jail ministry yet."

In Pastor Miles' case, he is being punished for breaking local law. Hopefully he will bear up under his burden and give a good testimony while there. Back in the early days of the 'net (for ME) a Guatemalan pastor was jailed on trumped up charges to cover up for a certain police chief's indiscretions. After all, who would care about some nameless evangelico? It turned out that a LOT of people did - even back in '98 when the 'net was relatively new. News got out and around the world and Guatemala was flooded with e-mails, phone calls, faxes, etc. It still took a few months to sort out. In the meantime he got busy and IIRC over 100 guatemalan prisoners came to the Lord through his brief stint at prison ministry. What helped most of all was that folks knew he was in there innocently - and yet he bore up under it and faced the situation in an exemplary way.

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:27 am

And need we point out that this is RUSSIA. Vladimir Putin is setting himself up as the next Czar. He's promoting Islam and starting to put the screws to the Christians (less the Russian Orthodox for obvious political reasons), he's got a mutual defense pact with Iran, controls natural gas supplies to former USSR republics and Europe, has hand-picked his "successor" and hand-picks the governors of the provinces (or whatever they're called). This fellow made a mistake and will pay for it.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 9:45 am

Having been there a few times back in '90 and again in 2000 I can safely say ... ouch

. That will be a fairly unpleasant stay. I actually got busted leaving a laptop computer at an orphanage in Ukraine in 2000. It cost me $300 on the spot ... which was fine because after being there for a month I can assure you that all you want to do is leave.

I have one minute of crazy story for every four minutes spent in the country.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri Apr 25, 2008 12:57 pm

AmBraCol wrote:
Modoc ED wrote:Hmmmmmmmmmm. You know the saying "God works in mysterious ways?" Well, maybe this was God's way of spreading his word in Russian Prisons. If that's so, the minister in this case should bear his burden without complaint as he was sent there by God to spread the word.
Now Modoc, I don't know you well enough to know if you're being facetious or not. But what I tell folks when they say "Why don't you carry in a thousand primers or so?" is "I'm not ready to start a jail ministry yet."

Ah heck -- I was just having a little fun but you know, I've planted that little seed in everyone's mind. Did the Lord send him?

Ok, Ok, Ok!!! I know the Lord didn't send him but I hope the Lord lets him know what a dunce he is. I just hope his appeal doesn't contain the phrase "Bullets for God".

Sometimes ya just gotta wonder what the heck people are thiniking when traveling to, in, and through foreign countries.