.38 WCF questions

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:32 pm

BrentD wrote:Variance, may be higher in your 3 fg powder than the 2 fg powder, or if they are from different batches, the batch producing the 3f might be denser at granulations; goex is notorious for that. Or it could easily be both. Until you measure grain sizes you won't know.

Actually, the variance was slightly less with the 3F.
Any idea if the powder is volume or weight loaded in factory BP cartridges?

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 5:35 pm

You measured grain size variance? I'd be interested to see those numbers if you still have them.

I don't know of anyone making true bp factory loads anymore. What little I've seen is fake bp, but then I don't look for it either. Anyone that competes loads their own.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:05 pm

No I didn't measure grain sizes.
What I meant was the volume of 40 grains of 3F seemed to weigh in closer to the digital scale 40 grains of weight. 3F Taped down settled and topped off was heavier on the digital scale.
I for one will be using the digital scale from now on for smack on consistency.
Probably not a big deal with BP, but fun for a perfectionist like me

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 7:54 pm

I'm with you with regards to measuring by weight. I weigh my charges to + or - 0.02 Grains. I weigh and sort my 513 bullets into 0.1g lots. That serves me well and I never doubt my cartridges. This summer it got me to 2nd overall in the BPCR Nationalso that should be proof that there is value in maximally anal-attentive loading.

However, Jerry Vanwey beat me by one point, yet he doesn't weigh his bullets at all and he dumps his power straight from the powder measure into the case and never used a scale. So, there is more than one right answer. This evening, I'll be back in my basement weighing powder and bullets as usual.

rbertalotto · Post by **rbertalotto** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:47 pm

I've shot benchrest rifle for years. Don't believe I've ever seen anybody weighto charge. All done with Culver type measures by volume. Counting clicks. But that said when it comes to Blackpowder I don't think it really matters. So much unburnt powder is blown out the barrel anyways. A few years ago did an experiment with a large sheet in front of the rifle to catch unburnt powder. It was an eye-opener. Hence the reason for long barrels with Blackpowder cartridge.

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 9:49 pm

rbertalotto, I have heard that many times. But I will continue to weigh my charges to the highest precision I can - and never ever doubt my ammo. I know even the best powder measures can vary quite a lot in throwing black.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:47 pm

casatahle,
In answer to your question "Any idea if the powder is volume or weight loaded in factory BP cartridges?"[/i] take a look at the pic in the link below.

The powder was dispensed directly into the cartridge cases as they progressed around the turntable and thus were loaded by volume measure. The measures would have been calibrated to dispense a specified weight of black powder.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/ ... ca1872.jpg

w30wcf

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:53 pm

BrentD wrote:I'm with you with regards to measuring by weight. I weigh my charges to + or - 0.02 Grains. I weigh and sort my 513 bullets into 0.1g lots. That serves me well and I never doubt my cartridges. This summer it got me to 2nd overall in the BPCR Nationals that should be proof that there is value in maximally anal-attentive loading.

However, Jerry Vanwey beat me by one point, yet he doesn't weigh his bullets at all and he dumps his power straight from the powder measure into the case and never used a scale. So, there is more than one right answer. This evening, I'll be back in my basement weighing powder and bullets as usual.

BrentD,
Nice shooting! Awesome!

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Thu Feb 05, 2015 11:03 pm

John I was pretty proud of that for sure,but the goal is 1st overall. I've been 6th, 5th, and now 2nd in the last three years. This could be the big one. I'm sorting bullets for it tonight.

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:32 am

Brent,
Best wishes that your ammunition preparation and shooting skills will = 1st place this year AND perhaps even establish a new record in the process!

You can do it!
Regards,
w30wcf

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 11:45 am

casastahle wrote:No I didn't measure grain sizes.
What I meant was the volume of 40 grains of 3F seemed to weigh in closer to the digital scale 40 grains of weight. 3F Taped down settled and topped off was heavier on the digital scale.
I for one will be using the digital scale from now on for smack on consistency.
Probably not a big deal with BP, but fun for a perfectionist like me

I have run volume / weight tests on different powders and granulation sizes using the Lyman 55 and B&M measures.
Interestingly, they have been regulated with an earlier black powder that has the same density as Swiss.
In other words, when the Lyman measure is set at "40" and the B&M is set for 40 grs. they dispense:

...Swiss 1 1/2 - 40.0 grs
.......Swiss 2F - 40.0 grs
.......Swiss 3F - 39.5 grs.
Schuetzen 2F - 37.0 grs
Schuetzen 3F - 37.2 grs
.........KIK 2F - 36.0 grs
.......Goex 2F - 36.0 grs
.......Goex 3F - 35.8 grs.
.........KIK 3F - 35.4 grs

Of course different lots of powder can vary a bit from one to the other.
Those values are from the ones I have on hand.

w30wcf

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:19 pm

w30wcf wrote:casatahle,
In answer to your question "Any idea if the powder is volume or weight loaded in factory BP cartridges?"[/i] take a look at the pic in the link below.

The powder was dispensed directly into the cartridge cases as they progressed around the turntable and thus were loaded by volume measure. The measures would have been calibrated to dispense a specified weight of black powder.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/ ... ca1872.jpg

w30wcf

Very neat picture

rbertalotto · Post by **rbertalotto** » Sat Feb 07, 2015 5:26 pm

Had a fellow show up at the range once when I was the RO.

Just started reloading and wanted to try out some rounds he's loaded. I watched from the club house and everytime he pulled the trigger, there was something hitting the ground about 20 feet infront of the muzzle. I walked down to the range to see what was up. He said he couldn't see the shots on his paper.

I told him to take another shot and I'd watch. He pulled the trigger and the gun sounded like a squib and sure enough, something kicked up dirt about 15 feet infront of the shoting bench.

I asked him how much powdere he had in the case. He said 38 grains. He added, "I counted THEM myself!"....."Used a pair of tweezers because those grains are real small!"

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Fri May 29, 2015 8:39 am

I decided to check the black powder levels in some .38-40 cases I have.
Note the difference in the densities between Goex and Swiss.

I don't have any .38-40 Starline brass but R-P .44-40 brass holds about 2 more grs of powder than .44-40 Starline brass.

I would expect that 36 grs by weight of Swiss FFG would be in the upper 1,300's f.p.s. since the same charge in the .44-40 gives a bit over 1,300 f.p.s. with a 215 gr. bullet.

w30wcf

rbertalotto · Post by **rbertalotto** » Fri May 29, 2015 4:56 pm

I decided to check the black powder levels in some .38-40 cases I have.
Note the difference in the densities between Goex and Swiss.

I don't have any .38-40 Starline brass but R-P .44-40 brass holds about 2 more grs of powder than .44-40 Starline brass.

Image

I would expect that 36 grs by weight of Swiss FFG would be in the upper 1,300's f.p.s. since the same charge in the .44-40 gives a bit over 1,300 f.p.s. with a 215 gr. bullet.

This is EXACTLY why volume is more important than weight......

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri May 29, 2015 6:19 pm

rbertalotto wrote:
I decided to check the black powder levels in some .38-40 cases I have.
Note the difference in the densities between Goex and Swiss.

I don't have any .38-40 Starline brass but R-P .44-40 brass holds about 2 more grs of powder than .44-40 Starline brass.

Image

I would expect that 36 grs by weight of Swiss FFG would be in the upper 1,300's f.p.s. since the same charge in the .44-40 gives a bit over 1,300 f.p.s. with a 215 gr. bullet.
This is EXACTLY why volume is more important than weight......

Disagree.
Volume can be altered with compression, the weight remains the same.

Dusty Texian · Post by **Dusty Texian** » Fri May 29, 2015 8:03 pm

casastahle wrote:
rbertalotto wrote:
I decided to check the black powder levels in some .38-40 cases I have.
Note the difference in the densities between Goex and Swiss.

I don't have any .38-40 Starline brass but R-P .44-40 brass holds about 2 more grs of powder than .44-40 Starline brass.

Image

I would expect that 36 grs by weight of Swiss FFG would be in the upper 1,300's f.p.s. since the same charge in the .44-40 gives a bit over 1,300 f.p.s. with a 215 gr. bullet.
This is EXACTLY why volume is more important than weight......
Disagree.
Volume can be altered with compression, the weight remains the same.

I agree with casastahle , useing the correct weight of a specific lott # of powder allows to get the correct powder volume ammount every time . ,,,,DT

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Thu Nov 19, 2015 2:41 pm

Glad I was directed to this thread. Lots to learn here!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Nov 19, 2015 4:27 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:Glad I was directed to this thread. Lots to learn here!

Have fun...
Fun can get $...
But that's fun too

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 11:10 am

I'm already looking at bullet molds from some of the custom guys ...

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 2:40 pm

My girl and a reproduction box of my hand cast & loaded BP ammo.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sat Nov 21, 2015 7:06 pm

Cut it out, would ya, CS?

I can't believe I ordered Starline .38-40 brass, dies and a Lee factory crimp die today, and I don't even have a rifle!
Hey, if you ever want to do a clinic/build-along on those cartridge boxes, I will be glued to the thread.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:17 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:Cut it out, would ya, CS?

I can't believe I ordered Starline .38-40 brass, dies and a Lee factory crimp die today, and I don't even have a rifle!
Hey, if you ever want to do a clinic/build-along on those cartridge boxes, I will be glued to the thread.

I have 4 boxes.
2 homemade with home printed labels.
2 bought authentic reproduction boxes. (1 above in pic.)
They aren't cheap, keep in mind they are handmade & very well made boxes.
With the price you also get that 'COOL FACTOR'

https://www.etsy.com/listing/157439917/ ... 38-cal-wcf

http://www.levergunscommunity.org/viewt ... 3&p=713208

EdinCT · Post by **EdinCT** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 8:09 am

Great photo of the classic 1890 Pa deer rifle. I know in New England my mentors told me the 38WCF was seen much more than the 44.
Did you ever get any balloon head cases?

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 1:53 pm

EdinCT wrote:Great photo of the classic 1890 Pa deer rifle. I know in New England my mentors told me the 38WCF was seen much more than the 44.
Did you ever get any balloon head cases?

Negative on the balloon head acquisition.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 4:24 pm

Good read from March 2015.

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/shooti ... un-review/

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sun Nov 22, 2015 7:00 pm

Thanks, CS. When you get the hots, you want read everything you can get your mitts on.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:47 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:Thanks, CS. When you get the hots, you want read everything you can get your mitts on.

Agree with that Bill...

Weather permitting my old 73 & home brew ammo. will be in the PA. woods with me in another week.
I filled my buck tag with the string flinger a few weeks ago.
I have a Doe tag left, definitely would be the icing on the cake.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 8:23 am

CS: I am looking forward to seeing a photo of your doe and your 73.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:44 am

Bill in Oregon wrote:CS: I am looking forward to seeing a photo of your doe and your 73.

I'll do my part, blessings are truly from above

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:32 am

Just ordered my mold from Tom at Accurate. Now to find a Uberti 73 at a decent price. Leaning toward Buffalo Arms.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:42 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:Just ordered my mold from Tom at Accurate. Now to find a Uberti 73 at a decent price. Leaning toward Buffalo Arms.

Awesome Bill

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:35 am

I blame you, CS!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Nov 29, 2015 7:11 pm

Bill in Oregon wrote:I blame you, CS!

Guilty as charged

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:06 pm

https://www.gunsamerica.com/blog/shooti ... un-review/

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Mon Dec 14, 2015 7:17 pm

I would surely love to hunt javelina with a 73 in .38 WCF.

Shrapnel · Post by **Shrapnel** » Tue Dec 15, 2015 10:58 am

The 38-40 could be the finest rabbit cartridge ever...

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:28 am

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:36 am

cshold wrote:

Looks like you can keep that old girl fed for a long time.
Did all that come as a set?

gregg · Post by **gregg** » Sun Aug 21, 2016 10:50 am

http://www.darkcanyon.net/They_Were_Good_But.htm

I like them. But might not be my duty gun. but I trust them for my use to be woods walks.I have a 1889 marlin 38wcf but it came to me at a time of my life I not got to know it.. sad but true.. but im sure it would work well. just like S&W 40 if it was a rifle or handgun as far as that goes.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sun Aug 21, 2016 12:36 pm

"Looks like you can keep that old girl fed for a long time.
Did all that come as a set?"

No,

I got it one step at a time and it cost much more than a dime.

The casting and loading tools I purchased from:

https://www.joesalter.com/home

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Sun Aug 21, 2016 1:40 pm

cshold wrote:"Looks like you can keep that old girl fed for a long time.
Did all that come as a set?"

No,

I got it one step at a time and it cost much more than a dime.

The casting and loading tools I purchased from:

https://www.joesalter.com/home

Thanks for the feedback - and the link!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Aug 22, 2016 8:02 pm

Merle wrote:
cshold wrote:"Looks like you can keep that old girl fed for a long time.
Did all that come as a set?"

No,

I got it one step at a time and it cost much more than a dime.

The casting and loading tools I purchased from:

https://www.joesalter.com/home

Thanks for the feedback - and the link!

You're welcome Merle.
Long live the model 73.

3855 · Post by **3855** » Tue Aug 23, 2016 9:20 am

A recent acquisition. A deluxe Winchester 1873. 128 years old and still a beauty.

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Tue Aug 23, 2016 10:14 am

3855 wrote:A recent acquisition. A deluxe Winchester 1873. 128 years old and still a beauty.

It is indeed - nice!!!

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:11 am

that's a dandy.
Well done 3855

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat Aug 27, 2016 6:42 am

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Mon Aug 29, 2016 5:02 pm

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Aug 29, 2016 6:26 pm

BrentD, congrats. You might consider that the surface area is what burns. Might be that volume is a better gauge of surface area in a load. There is always some variance of granule size in powders. So thinking that weight will certainly be a better measure of surface area could actually be wrong.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:58 pm