Cop complaint update - I didn't complain; maybe should have

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:08 pm

I was headed home the other night around 9:30, and had talked to my teenage daughter (home alone) about whether she had done the outside chores (fed dogs, goats, chickens) yet or not, and she said she "was going to", but was waiting until the dogs settled down. I asked what was going on and she said they were probably just barking at coyotes, like they tend to do, and she'd go out after they quieted down. We live in a rural area where there are only two occupied houses on a nearly two-mile stretch of road.

I thought nothing of it, assuming it was likely just an excuse for not having done the chores yet.

Then as I come by the curve in the road just a few hundred yards south of my house, there are four sheriff cars stopped (at first I thought the road was blocked off), and a vehicle off in the berm. None of the officers were in an 'active' posture - all appeared relaxed and they were standing around talking to one another.

I pulled up by the first one (a really young kid), and said "I live in the first house down the road here - is there anything going on I need to know about...?" He said something in a very snotty attitude along the lines of "Buddy, this is none of your business, and I don't have to tell you anything, so get moving..." I wrote him off as just an apprentice/kid of some sort directing traffic, and pulled up to the group of four or so officers standing and talking, and repeated my question. Again, I got a very HOSTILE response like "You have no business stopping here, what makes you think this is any of your business...?" I reiterated that I lived in the next house down the road, and started to explain that we have several unoccupied buildings that sometimes druggies get into, and that I also have a kid outside doing chores, so if there's someone roaming around in the woods (potentially on my property no less), I'd like to know, but before I could explain, a second cop turned and literally put his hand on the butt of his gun, and said "Look, buddy - you need to LISTEN - this is none of your business, and if you don't want to get arrested, you'd better get moving NOW..."

My first mistake was that as I rolled up my window, I said "Whatever...", and my second one was that being on wet sandy pavement with my front-wheel drive car and sore end-of-day feet and knees, I didn't let off the clutch gently. I'm betting sand flew in their general direction, or that they were just upset at whatever they were doing not succeeding that they wanted to bust SOMEONE, so by the time I got to my driveway, one of them was pulling up behind me and had me stop and get out and frisked me and made me stand out in the drizzle and freeze my butt off for awhile why they checked me out.

In the meantime, the three other cop cars pulled up as backup or just to watch, and the guy who stopped me gave me a lecture as to he was "trying to keep drugs off the streets", and then I came along and pulled a stunt like that ("unsafe start from stopped, standing, or parked position"), so they had to stop what they were doing and come after me. (I wanted to ask him if the drug bust was going so successfully then why would they all leave to go after a minor traffic violation, but I didn't)

Then the officer he handed my 1911 to was trying to clear it, and waving the muzzle towards the other officers (good thing I carry unchambered), and the one who stopped me had to ask him "Do you need me to show you how to clear that...?", and he said no, and fumbled a bit more and finally locked it open and put it in an 'evidence' bag with the magazine.

Then the car they had stopped by the roadside came by, and whoever it was actually rolled down the windows, and shouted "Nah na, na-na-na" at the officers, which kind of seemed to irritate them (understandably). So I got another lecture about how I was responsible for their having to let those druggies loose on society, and the one who stopped me asked "Do you know those guys...?" as if it was some kind of conspiracy.

I explained to him again why I wanted to know what was going on, that my kid was outside doing chores, and we had buildings creeps like those guys might hide in, and that I wasn't trying to be nosy or cared who they were stopping for what, but just wanted what I said - "I live in the next house here - is there anything going on that I need to know about...?" He didn't respond, but just started asking "How many dogs do you have?" and what kind they were - I couldn't tell if he was just trying to make small-talk, or if he was trying to check me out to see if I had a meth lab or something.

Anyway, he turned me loose with a ticket that I honestly feel was bullcrap, but I'm more irritated at being treated like scum just because I dared to ask a legitimate question as a citizen, than I am the ticket. I figure I'll pay the ticket if I complain about the officers, otherwise it will look like I'm just complaining to get out of a ticket.
So.................

Do you think there any point in registering a complaint (and what is the best way to do it so that it actually leads to something constructive)...?

I know law enforcement is VERY stressful, and they have to deal with real scummy people, and unfair rules, and all that, and yet they aren't supposed to take that out on the ordinary citizens.

I don't like seeing our own County Sheriff's department turn into some arrogant "everyone who isn't a cop is a perp" department like the big cities so often are.

Please let me know your thoughts; I know some of you are LEO's and have more insight into this sort of thing than I do.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:11 pm

You were treated shabbily.....

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:22 pm

Sign of the times AJ.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:25 pm

Unfortunately, many LEOs tend to get attitudes like this. My daughter who was in college at the time lived in an apartment complex near campus. One night she awoke to someone beating on the door. She asked Who is there and the response was POLICE, open up! Thankfully she took her time opening the door once she had verified they were indeed the police. However, her caution angered the officer beating on the door and he immediately accused her of trying to hide something and continually questioned her why she took so long. Then he asked her why her apartment was the only apartment with a peep hole. She said he did back off a bit when she responded because my dad told the landlord we would only take the apartment if we could add a peephole.

Needless to say, I did call and file a complaint and even drove down to meet the supervisor face to face. My primary complaint was the officers intimidation tactics trying to get her to authorize him to search her home, which she did not conscent to!

IMO, I would pay the fine but file the complaint as well.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:29 pm

"I'm a Doctor. Is someone hurt? Oh, and BTW, I live right over there."

And they were (dangerous) jerks.

wm · Post by wm » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:31 pm

I would raise holy hell with anyone willing to listen.....particularly the Sheriff, the Judge, the DA, the AG, and my local representative at the county seat and at the state house.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:33 pm

Griff wrote:Doc,

Were it me, (and I have), I would write a nice, respectful letter to the Sheriff. Explain the circumstances and ask that he talk to the Deputies in question about their overall demeanor and public image in dealing with J.Q. Public. If you don't have badge numbers/names, then just detail the location and time and let him determine who to talk to. End up with a statement that you'd like an explanation as to the "why" of the attitude you received to garner a response. Any Sheriff worth his salt knows, as an elected official, he and his men need to have above average communication and public relation skills.

Use your title to your best advantage... Upstanding citizens are law enforcement's best assets. Dope dealin' scum and other low-lifes need being communicated with in forms they understand, upstanding citizens often bristle and become offended, hence less likely to vote pro-law enforcement, when treated in like manner.

Or, at least that's been my experience.

Edited to add, if I were still on with a law enforcement agency, I'd be VERY reluctant to answer this... but, as I no longer carry a badge, I feel no such reticence. So don't expect a LOT of responses.

I might add that I've run this by several friends in law enforcement, and none of them had anything good to say about that kind of behavior. 'Off the record' though, I'm sure...

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:42 pm

I think you do need to file a complaint through the proper channels. If you let this slide, that sort of attitude will continue. At least one or two of them are guilty of a misuse of authority. Find out the proper authority with which to file your complaint. It is not likely to be with their superior, as there is nothing to say it won't be more of the same. In my area, there is a Police Services Commission that handles those things in an objective manner and they do take people's complaints very seriously.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:43 pm

I'm about as "cop friendly" as anyone I know. Those guys were arrogant jerks. He** yes report them, and send in a letter to the editor of the local paper, and put it on facebook etc. I'd ask for nothing less than the ticket be thrown out (with prejudice, if such exists) and a written apology from all the officers involved.

Chris83716 · Post by **Chris83716** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:46 pm

I would raise hell. Then raise hell again. No reason for that kind of B.S. they are public servants and need to keep that in mind.

Chris

ollogger · Post by **ollogger** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 9:55 pm

Doc. I think you have received good advice!!

ollogger

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:00 pm

I did 35 years security work. The vast majority of it was uniform but once in a great while I was assigned to travel in plain cloths. I had very little trouble to handle all those years. Once my job took me into the middle of no where and something major happened. A grumpy old hard-nose type demanded my ID etc. I was nice and started to pull my badge out of my pocket as I returned the question and asked who he was. He informed me he was God. I pulled out a notebook and pen and asked him how do you spell God?
He backed off. You can go to their chief or the sheriff but they will blow smoke at you and defend the officer/officers, BUT he will call them in and mildly chew butt. However if they get more complaints the butt chewing s will get more significant. Sounds like they were out of line far enough where I might would do it. "The beatings will continue until morale improves!" The fastest result might be to complain to the newspaper editor.

arjunky · Post by **arjunky** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:16 pm

Any chance that road was on your property?
Byron

plowboy 45 · Post by **plowboy 45** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:19 pm

My wife an I got stopped one evening, smart 20 year old treated us very rude and lied alot my wife was the third complaint Monday morning, he got caught in his lies and was fired

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:23 pm

Find out if they are using body cameras and/or dash cameras and get copies of the footage if possible (some have done so under the freedom of info act). It should tell the tale, and if the Sheriff is worth anything, he'll tear them a new one if not send them packing.

If the guy that had stopped was a real deal bad guy nothing you did would have distracted them, they are full of bull feathers for suggesting they HAD to go deal with you and let some arch enemy of decent folks get off scott free from his depradations on society. They were doing nothing but harrasing him when you showed up or they wouldnt have cut him loose so easily. Nothing about this makes sense.

octagon · Post by **octagon** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:43 pm

Thirty minutes ago I left the house to pick up my oldest daughter from a school play rehearsal. Two cops have got a car pulled over a mile down the road, i slow down to about 25 and go on by. Two miles down the road a sheriff (no flashers) comes screaming out of a perpendicular road no blinker, and round me half into the ditch at 65 mph. I stand on the brakes ,blast the horn, and was able to get back on the road without rolling the truck, just a load of fence tools in a bos in the back seat now all over the place.
I often have breakfast with the local Chief of Police, and you can bet I'll let him know about it. Thought I was gonna roll for a minute there. I was tempted to go back and raise %#** about it, then I'd be the one getting frisked

AJ I guess we could both use a good haircut

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:59 pm

Malamute wrote:Find out if they are using body cameras and/or dash cameras and get copies of the footage if possible (some have done so under the freedom of info act). It should tell the tale,
If the guy that had stopped was a real deal bad guy nothing you did would have distracted them,

Do a public information act request on the dash and body cams. Body cams might not exist, but the dash cams and body mics sure do, especially if the lights were rolling.

Watch the tape carefully. Have a friend watch it, one that you trust to tell you how the cow ate the cabbage. If the friend tells you to drop it, drop it. If he tells you to complain, do so. In a well-organized manner with no embellishment. If you're caught in one exaggeration you will be considered a blowhard drama queen and you'll have to jump to the next step. Hopefully, a well-executed complaint will improve the department and how they react to the public.

We all know some cops and some doctors have egos...so try to weigh it objectively before acting. I believe the public should be treated with respect no matter what.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 10:59 pm

They were just a bunch of punks out rolling other kids for their lunch money.

A complaint about cops to other cops is a waste of time.

Now that they've successfully robbed you, they don't care. They'll split your fine and laugh at you while using your cash for beer money at some local cop dive.

If you want action, get a lawyer to do your talking.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Wed Feb 25, 2015 11:17 pm

In my experience it doesn't work quite like that. To start with the local lawysters have to work with said leo`s all the time and it`s not always against them but lots of times they need each other on other case`s. Sure today maybe even in the SAME day they might be on opposite sides and in the afternoon need to be complimenting each other. A lawyer really is not going to start a infighting war with people he see`s in court often. On top of that, do you really want to spend something like $450s a hour for MANY hours? Complaining to their boss is the only sane way to go if your going to do anything.

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:06 am

AJMD429 wrote:
Griff wrote:Doc,

Were it me, (and I have), I would write a nice, respectful letter to the Sheriff. Explain the circumstances and ask that he talk to the Deputies in question about their overall demeanor and public image in dealing with J.Q. Public. If you don't have badge numbers/names, then just detail the location and time and let him determine who to talk to. End up with a statement that you'd like an explanation as to the "why" of the attitude you received to garner a response. Any Sheriff worth his salt knows, as an elected official, he and his men need to have above average communication and public relation skills.

Use your title to your best advantage... Upstanding citizens are law enforcement's best assets. Dope dealin' scum and other low-lifes need being communicated with in forms they understand, upstanding citizens often bristle and become offended, hence less likely to vote pro-law enforcement, when treated in like manner.

Or, at least that's been my experience.

Edited to add, if I were still on with a law enforcement agency, I'd be VERY reluctant to answer this... but, as I no longer carry a badge, I feel no such reticence. So don't expect a LOT of responses.
I might add that I've run this by several friends in law enforcement, and none of them had anything good to say about that kind of behavior. 'Off the record' though, I'm sure...

This wins, letter with a copy in your file. Keeping in mind one or more of these individuals may hunt you for a while if they really are the type of cop they acted like.

hayabusa · Post by **hayabusa** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:34 am

This wins, letter with a copy in your file. Keeping in mind one or more of these individuals may hunt you for a while if they really are the type of cop they acted like.

I had a Deputy Sheriff get upset at me one night about 2:00 AM when she ran a red light & if I had not been alert would have broadsided my Corvette.
Some of the folks I know listen to the scanners at all hours of the night and would ask me why were the cops wanting with me several times. Just go to the Lieutenant in charge of substation and get told his cops do not act like that. Of course it is illegal to put over the radio BS & tell the other cops she had it under control so they all would be watching said car & license plate. So stop at main Substation & talk to Patrol Captain, he calls the Lieutenant who calls me on the assy. line at GM Truck plant while I am making trucks well after his shift is over and very humbly apologizes for said Deputy & says he talked to her & she was not harassing me & would not harass me any more! True story.
I said all of that to say go to Top cop and explain the situation and that you are very to be a MD whom should be known to the cops especially the ones who patrol your street and expect to be treated with courtesy and respect from law enforcement personnel. If they do not know the folks in their
area of patrol they are pee poor cops. Even the mail carriers can tell who anyone on their route is.
By the way, did they return the 1911? Or is it now evidence?
Any Chief or top cop would probably take care of the ticket.

hayabusa

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 2:44 am

As a LE Chaplain I have seen this sort of behavior, fortunately not all of the time. The head of the LE Agency that I work for receives complaints like yours from citizens and he takes them seriously. I've sat in a couple of "come-to Jesus" in-service re-training meetings in the squad-room when someone in our Agency messed up with a citizen. Good citizens are not the enemy--scum-bags, not so much.

My only advice, is that I would have gone home after I was told by the first Deputy not to worry about it. If they were doing parameter and if a drug bust was actually in progress their attention was focused on that potential threat, and not your inquiry. Four patrol cars within close proximity to one-another is a good indicator that something serious is happening... Code-4

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 3:22 am

I would file a complaint on my office stationary. The Sheriff is a political job and his deputies represent him. In this case they didn't do a very good job.
I'd also fight the ticket. Not just as a mater of principle but because the fine is just the down payment, the real cost comes in what your insurance company will extract from you.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:33 am

Some things are not worth the aggravation. Filing complaints and going to hearings/interviews can draw the happiness from you and will raise your BP. In the end, those guys stick up for each other and sometimes its better to leave a sleeping dog sleep.

In a week, everyone involved will have forgotten it. You pizz them off and it may come back to haunt you when you need them.

5 years ago I had a Pa. State Trooper hold a gun to my head while my buddy was spread eagle on the ground. It all turned out the cop was overzealous about a call that came in. I am buds with a local police chief and he told me that while I was 100% right, to leave it alone. Its usually our ego that is hurt more than anything else----------6

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:54 am

Except that the kind of violent Police State abuse shown to you is one of the reasons that the Founders decided that the British Army was not welcome in PA...

It's not about hurt pride, its about a Constitution being shat upon.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:29 am

AJMD429 wrote: Anyway, he turned me loose with a ticket that I honestly feel was bullcrap, but I'm more irritated at being treated like scum just because I dared to ask a legitimate question as a citizen, than I am the ticket. I figure I'll pay the ticket if I complain about the officers, otherwise it will look like I'm just complaining to get out of a ticket.
----

I don't like seeing our own County Sheriff's department turn into some arrogant "everyone who isn't a cop is a perp" department like the big cities so often are.

Please let me know your thoughts; I know some of you are LEO's and have more insight into this sort of thing than I do.

My thoughts are its beyond time for many police officers to start acting with a little more civility. If he/they did that in your own driveway, thats a mistake right there - breaching your private property line to mess with you

If everybody took half a day off work to go fight these idiotic and unneccessary tickets that are written by these guys' --- it would quickly overload the legal system and they would have to re-evaluate

You were a concerned property owner in the general area they were camped out

I'm with OI on this ---- heck Doc, one cross word and they may very well have had you on the ground in your own driveway -- bullies

I have a dim view of bullying behavior , and after our formative years, for most of us anyway -- the only bullying going on seems to be from LEO -- there are statistics somewhere that also state we are more likely to be shot by a police officer than a "bad guy" too

SargeMarlin · Post by **SargeMarlin** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:42 am

Register the complaint. I've been law enforcement for 23 years (16 years patrol and traffic enforcement, 4 years Sgt. in patrol, 3 years Lt. in charge of training, 10 year SWAT) and I hold myself and the guys that work for me to a higher standard. I would imagine that the supervisor and the sheriff would agree and would hold the deputies feet to the fire in this instance.

I've been frustrated in searches, failed pursuits, traffic stops that I knew there was more to, and calls that I thought guys probably went too far and there is no excuse. Someone said earlier that we all stick up for each or will lie for each other, and I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, I believe that most guys don't want to take days off or lose a job over one of the co-workers being a dick.

The truth will come out, and when it does, you will either be vindicated or not. No different than any investigation, there are three sides to every story: 1) your side; 2) the deputies' side; 3) and the truth. Obviously the last is difficult because perspective and emotion cloud the other two.

Video would be nice. If its not available (read off or fails to show anything of value or no audio) check while filing the complaint if its departmental policy to have it on during a traffic stop, most agencies require it.

I wish you luck hope that the deputies gain back the perspective that they need to do the job correctly and the situation resolves itself in a manner that is satisfactory for you.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:52 am

I'm a retired cop & now a lawyer that sues police departments for civil rights violations.

Paying the ticket will appear as an admission police acted properly. One must wonder what the ticket was actually issued for and why you do not tell us that. We assume here your version of facts is accurate.

Making a complaint without a court adjudication will be seen as an attempt to influence the court outcome of the ticket.

I'd tell a client in this situation that he/she ought fight and win the ticket and then consider a complaint. I doubt anything would come of a complaint as it would be a liars' match incapable of being decided without an independent witness. No jury would award lawsuit damage merely because your feelings were hurt. An apology from the sheriff has no value but it might make you feel better.

Don't vote for that sheriff again. Better, you should run for that office.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:13 am

I would probably not ever pay a ticket without fighting it. The time invested in fighting it is worth it to me. The man hours the officer and his partner, the prosecutor, the bailiff, the judge, the stenographer.... spend on a pisant ticket do not add up financially. If the officer fails to show, you win by asking for dismissal. You lose, you only pay the amount you would have.

Just because you exhibited what appeared to be attitude and poor judgement is no reason to have to pay that ticket.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:31 am

I live in a rural area also Doc, if the local Sheriff and His officers aren't on Your side who is? I would file a complaint, and Go talk to the Sheriff. around here the Sheriff's I have dealt with have been very level headed and helpful. on the other hand the local HI Way Patrol and in Canada the O.P.P. I have run into have usually acted like arrogant snobs. Good Luck.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:34 am

50 years ago I was new in the los Angeles area. Brand new job. I was working swing, got off at midnight and stopped at a bar for one glass of beer at a bar I had never been in. I was pulling out from the bar and seen a crusier and knew he had to have seen me. I was on my best driving behavior. He followed me about two miles with his lights off. I turned on another road and saw him turn his headlights on, speed up behind me and hit his reds. He had me walk the line etc. What pizzed me off was when he finally scratched his head and said I am going to write you up for cutting a corner. I didnt argue and signed the ticket wondering, what corner? I went back the next day with a camera and looked up "that corner". The corner he had drawn on the ticket had a high cement median with a stop light sitting high in the middle and no way could you cut it without driving over a high enough median to hang up your vehicle on. I decided to fight the ticket. I also noticed he had wrote my vehicle as being "blue" when it was white.
In court I asked him if he was color blind. He started to tell me he couldnt have qualified to be a cop were he. The old judge snorted that it didn't matter. Then I sent the picture up. The judge now looked at the ticket and my picture, and asked the bailiff to bring him such and such law book. Turned out the code the officer wrote had nothing to do with the offense or possibly he had pulled some nothing numbers out of his butt and obviously figured I would gladly not fight the ticket and be thankfully I wasn't being wrote up for a 502. I hadn't bothered to check out what the code meant on the ticket.
One other thing, the assistant DA, a woman that was a ringer for Marcia Clark, had tried to talk me into asking for driving school prior to my case. I had told her BS, I am fighting it because I didn't do it!
The judge looked at the law book the bailiff brought him, told me I could leave, and in the same breath told the young hot shot cop "I want to see you in my chambers". In defiance I had sat right next to the cop. As we both got up I rubbed him with, "Sorry about that"! He muttered "It happens all the time!"
If NOBODY would NEVER challenge these case`s we would be living in 1937 Germany next month!

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 10:49 am

I wouldn't have dreamed of treating anyone that way when I was a cop. There's no excuse for behavior like that. And they wonder why the general public has a hate/distrust for law enforcement.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:29 am

I've been treated pretty poorly recently for shooting on my own property where I've been shooting for 20 years. Some people from NJ came out to look at their property and called the cops to say I was shooting at them. They were about a half mile behind me. Any way after shooting for a bit I'm back in the house and suddenly there's 3 deputies surrounding it demanding I come out and show them some ID. Soon as I saw them I phoned my attorney and my wife was filming through the window. They finally left but we had a tense situation for a bit. I phoned the Sheriff the next day and he said "I'll take care of it", I have been unmolested since then while shooting. I've had a couple other incidents where I actually ended up in a conference in the Sheriffs office. These conversations resulted in meetings at the sub stations and deputies being told to knock off certain behavior. I'm sure there's places where this might not work, you know your county Doc I don't, but I would give it a shot.

carbluesnake · Post by **carbluesnake** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 11:47 am

File a written complaint with the department, and if possible talk personally with the sheriff. Any good supervisor, i.e. sheriff, wants to know these things.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 12:14 pm

Honestly, I wouldn't even bother. This is really what law
enforcement has become for the most part.

You made several mistakes:

1. Minor - you stopped. You are ALWAYS taking a chance to
get hassled when you stop and ask a cop what's going on. Most
cops today figure that they don't owe you a civilized answer.
(They do, of course, if the inquiry is polite!)

2. MAJOR, MAJOR, MAJOR ERROR!!! - You asked the second cop.
Once one of these yahoos gives you a snotty answer, you can
safely assume that the whole pack is like that. They perceived
your 2nd inquiry as a direct and inexcusable threat to their ultimate
authority. (They don't, of course, have ultimate authority over you,
but they really THINK that they do - and the testosterone flows way
more freely when they're in a pack!!!)

3. MAJOR ERROR!!!! "Whatever...." Again perceived as a condescending
threat to their manhood/perceived authority......

4. MAJOR ERROR!!!! - Spinning tires after all of that.....

The guys you ran into are NOT true Law Enforcement Officers in the best tradition
of public service, but punks in a gang with badges and guns.

You've got every right to ask what's going on in your neighborhood. After
the first rude reply, your only course of action was to say, "Sorry to have bothered
you, have a safe night," and driven away normally. Trying to apply logic in
a "boots on the ground" situation with a Neanderthal is a losing proposition.
Remember - "Never argue with an idiot - they'll just drag you down to their
level and beat you with experience!"

You, being an intelligent human bieng, were trying to bring logic to a situation
involving low level agents of the State. (You'll hurt yourself trying that sort of
thing!

)

All of that said, it's too bad that you have such yahoos in your neck of the woods
"enforcing the law!" I hope you got your gun back, and I hope the ticket is
dismissed. On the plus side, you now know what you have for law enforcement in
your neck of the woods.

-Stretch

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 5:26 pm

Yeah, do it. Exercise your Constitutional Rights. PLEASE weed out the bad LEO's. Police forces are becoming more militarized and brutalizing honest citizens cause they know most won't fight back. This is a VERY DISTURBING TREND across our Nation. Fight back while you still can.

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:21 pm

AJMD429 wrote:Anyway, he turned me loose with a ticket that I honestly feel was bullcrap, but I'm more irritated at being treated like scum just because I dared to ask a legitimate question as a citizen, than I am the ticket. I figure I'll pay the ticket if I complain about the officers, otherwise it will look like I'm just complaining to get out of a ticket.
So................. .

This is what I would suggest to any member of my family to do. Also have the complaint in writing and get a receipt, verbal complaints are pretty much file 13'ed as the supervisor has nothing to show that a complaint was actually made. Three copies, one hand delivered at the time you pay the citation, one mailed to the dept head, one mailed to the county prosecutor. Include any names and badge numbers present.

Probably the worst *** chewing I ever handed out as a LEO supervisor was to a officer for talking trash to a citizen that was just trying to get some information....just like your situation.

Rob

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 6:28 pm

wm wrote:I would raise holy hell with anyone willing to listen.....particularly the Sheriff, the Judge, the DA, the AG, and my local representative at the county seat and at the state house.

me too ! these attitudes have GOT to change.

I have a lot of friends who are officers, and NONE of them behave this way.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:08 pm

Like I said, "The beatings will continue until there is a improvement in morale."

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:22 pm

Doc,
You should have just painted your face a dark brown....not black.......and told them Al Sharpton will be paying them all a visit....would have changed their tune.----6

2571 · Post by **2571** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:27 pm

Do we know Doc is not a Black American? Maybe that's what the whole incident was about?

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:36 pm

Got to tell this one. Years ago I had a very close friend that was really named "John Law". Before I worked with John he said he was on Moses Lake PD in Washington state. He ticketed some old guy, the old boy looked at the ticket and told him, "Why you no good ---, ya aint even got the guts ta sign your own name! "

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:40 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Except that the kind of violent Police State abuse shown to you is one of the reasons that the Founders decided that the British Army was not welcome in PA...

It's not about hurt pride, its about a Constitution being shat upon.

Agreed. Polite, but firm. If we don't take the opportunity to stand up against things like this now, they will only get worse.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Thu Feb 26, 2015 9:44 pm

Another reason to politely file a formal complaint... for all the good cops out there. Guys actng like this give the good ones a bad name.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 10:00 am

2571 wrote:Do we know Doc is not a Black American? Maybe that's what the whole incident was about?

Ha! Come to think about it, Good ole Doc has not posted any pictures of himself....except that one that was taken 40 years ago with hair down to the middle of his back, holding a knife. Were they dreadlocks, Doc?

--------6

Panzercat · Post by **Panzercat** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 12:29 pm

OTOH I think he had the right to stop and ask what was happening in his neighborhood. Sorry, but it was his business being only a few houses down. The man wasn't asking for a debrief of the situation, merely a general what's going on. He deserves that and not the "none-ya" he got.

File a complaint.

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:31 pm

If they're local PD send your write up to the mayor. If they're county send it to the board of supervisors.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sat Feb 28, 2015 7:54 pm

Here's a great video of a nice classic car enthusiast who had to spend the night in the pokey after police officers made him strip his shirt off on the side of the road and embarrassed his wife who was on crutches --- because they did not know how to run an antique vehicle tag on this gentleman's old musclecar

Age shouldnt matter, but to me it does, they made this guy who is likely 50's or early 60's , strip and get on his knees on the side of the dang highway! --- Real hardened criminals here.

The thing in NY with the choke out of the guy selling cigarettes, -- it even happened to a man here in my hometown (Moore, OK) at a movie theatre after a minor domestic issue -- choked the man until he asphyxiated

https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=964002783620285

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:45 pm

So tonight I'm at the office around 10 pm finishing my charting, and my wife texts and says "please come home soon....I heard voices outside..." We live way too far from anyone to hear anyone talking who is not on our property, which at 10 pm is a good sign they aren't Jehovas Witnesses out handing out literature.

I tell her I'll head that eay, mention what floodlights is turn on, and so on, then add she might want to ask a deputy to come out and check around the unoccupied buildings down towards the road. In the 30 years we've lived here they have done that kind of thing a few times, usually finding nothing dangerous - maybe a poacher or trespasses not-turned-thief-yet. They were always courteous and we appreciated their help.

THIS TIME...... she said she was so intimidated by their arrogant, demeaning, and hostile ATTITUDE last year when I posted this originally, that there was "no way I want those manholes anywhere near me, or the children"...only she didn't say the word 'manholes'....

Now I'm really steamed; it's one thing for this old man to write them off as jerks....I probably can deal with at least a few of the things that might come my way without their help, and if I can't, I'm just an expendable geezer in the big scheme of things. But when my wife and kids are too intimidated by the rude and obnoxious behavior of the local sheriff department to even want to call them for help, really frosts my butt...

I haven't done any complaining about the event a year ago, partly because I like to 'cool down' before shooting my mouth off, partly because I got so busy with work and financial survival of Obamacare, and partly because many of my friends who are local or state cops expressed the opinion that although it was inexcusable behavior that would have gotten them fired twenty years ago, it has become almost normal now days for angry, frustrated cops to treat any citizen they don't know personally just like I was treated.

Most of them felt no good would come of reporting it, due to too many 'administrative types' running things, and I'd risk being the target of stalking by anyone who did get reprimanded, if they figured out who complained. Yet any complaint without enough details for a ticked-off cop to I'D me would be a vague and useless complaint.

I might add that when I got home I went outside (armed, obviously), and checked the fences, woodshed, two barns, rental house, storage buildings, and old abandoned cottage that sometimes meth-heads and so on hide out in. Nothing to explain the shouting and talking my wife heard. The whole time I kept thinking if one of those deputies did come out or happen to see me going on and out of the buildings near the road, instead of offering any help, they would probably just have hassled me for having a rifle with me. Even though it's my property, they have already demonstrated they can come up with creative 'charges' if needed.

I think my friends are right; if you are a personal friend of theirs, you're 'ok', but anyone else is perp-until-proven-otherwise, and thus the 'enemy'. That is sad, and doesn't bode well for either good citizens or good cops.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Mar 14, 2016 11:15 pm

Well, this certainly sucks for you. I'm sure not going to try to talk you out of the way you feel, but, don't let your feelings cause you, and yours any problems. Some of the things that make Indiana a pretty good place to live, also makes it touchy if you get on the wrong side of the local rednecks.....Take care.